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Old 10-12-2009, 11:09   #21
mijke
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Originally Posted by Nebulosa View Post
but the main problem seems to be... the price is too high for some people.
So I was wondering about, if we get one ammount of owners (upper than the actual number of tested dogs) willing to make this test in his dogs, would have the possibility of the university turn the price of the test lower?

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Originally Posted by jmvdwiel View Post
maybe they are willing to make a discount when you can give them 50 or more samples at one time?
Maybe Mijke can ask them, she is the one with the connections
I agree it is a high price to test a dog for this disease.

And of course I am willing to try to get discount when we are able to send 50 blood samples in one time.
But I doubt if it is really possible to send such an amount of samples in one time!

Maybe it is only possible when we collect blood on a event like World dog show
And I am willing to come over with a vet on such an event and take the blood samples for free! (owners then only have to pay for the test of the university)

And till that time I only can hope that more owners realize it is important to test their CsW.
A lot of owners are still thinking pituitary dwarfism is not a big issue in this breed, they don’t test.

But when 1/5 of the 30 tested dogs from different combinations/lines are carrier , it is probably a big issue in a breed.

And when a breeder counts €25 more for each pup they sell, with one litter they can earn the costs of a pituitary dwarfism test
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Old 07-01-2010, 23:12   #22
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I feel very sad that in other forum topics people make sometimes accusations and blame each other for health problems.

Because it has been never good for any breed when people did make accusations to breeders about health problems. It is really the most silly thing people can do!

Please realize we don't have a perfect breed! Not any breeder wants to have health problems in his/her lines, but realize we all 'll have in this relative small gene pool ! (small or big, known or still hidden)

And only when we work together , we can work on health problems in a breed.


And for pituitary dwarfism it is really simple: not any dog has to be out of breeding program (not any carrier is a danger for the breed!), only don't make combinations carrier x carrier.

And please don't make anymore a secret of the health problems in our breed!
Only when we can share the info like HD results, eye results and so on we can improve the breed!


In the past no one did hear, or did not know, or did not want to speak about dwarfism. even sometimes it was denied. But after that I did make this more public, more and more info was received from several countries. (even dwarf photo's with names)

And now we have 30 honest owners who did make the official test and did publish the results! (only by DNA blood test we can be sure that it is really pituitary dwarfism.)

I am very grateful this people did want to do the best for the breed and did want to share the info with us!

And I hope there will follow more people and countries who want test and honest share the test results


Blood Test:
A form blood sample is Here to download as pdf file

About price for the test:
I realize it is a high price for everyone!
I often receive the comment that it is a to high for people in east European countries. And I can imagine that is problem for normal owners.
But most of the breeders in east Europe are asking the same prices like West Europe around € 1000 (and that is a lot more then I did ever ask for a pup of any breed!)
But as I did write before when a breeder counts €25 more for each pup they sell, with one litter they can earn the costs of a pituitary dwarfism test

About dwarfs:
Every born dwarf needs medication (special grow hormone and thyrax) to provide awful suffering. It is very hard to get the special grow hormone. People who have a dwarf can contact me in private to speak about possible solutions. [email protected]

When a dwarf is under control by specialists and will get medicines they can grow up like this:

Lilo 18 months, 18 kg and 52 cm.

My requests:
  • Please test your CsW
  • And please contact me when you think about euthanizing your dwarf (I can give you more info in private)


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Old 08-01-2010, 13:31   #23
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Mijke, I have a question, maybe naive, but I had classes in genetics only at school, and that was very long time ago.

Am I right assuming that if a carrier is matched with a carrier, absolutely every pup born from this match is a carrier of the gene, only most of them do not simply develop the illness... ?

In that case there is no need to test parents and full sibilings of dwarfs, because they would be 100% carriers.

But there is definitely sense in testing first ONE parent of a carrier (if he/she's free, there is no need to test the other one) or/and half-sibilings of carriers, because some of them might have taken the gene after their carrier-mother or carrier-father and some not. Does my reasoning make sense?

I'm asking, because if breeders openly declared in which litters there were dwarf puppies born, some owners would not have to test their dogs to learn the positive results (ie dwarf+).

On the other hand I suppose sometimes it's hard to recognize the true reason of a very young puppy's death - it could be either dwarfism or some other genetic or inborn malformation.
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Old 08-01-2010, 13:57   #24
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I am not Mijke but will answer.
If you declare a carrier as p(ositive for dwarf)/n(negative for dwarf), it means that in an egg or a sperm there is only one p or one n, in combining two carriers you get the possible pairings p/p, p/n and n/n. what means you can get negativ (no dwarf gene) dogs by pairing two carriers. The only problem is you might get some p/p out of this pairing.

Ina
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Old 08-01-2010, 15:20   #25
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so, all puppys after parents n/n + n/n get a certificate without testing?
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Old 08-01-2010, 16:05   #26
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so, all puppys after parents n/n + n/n get a certificate without testing?
In theory, puppies after clear parents are also clear, but there is always very low, but not nonexistent, probability of spontaneous mutation in the gene. Bad thing is, this mutation would probably not be recognized by the test. But this is true for any genetic illness. And the probability is so low that it can be ignored for most purposes (unless dwarves start to be born after clear parents).

In my opinion, to get a certificate, the pups should either be tested for the gene itself, or for the paternity of the proclaimed parents (which might be more economic if the parents have certificates for several genetic disorders - but I am not sure if it would be accepted).
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Old 08-01-2010, 16:30   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
I am not Mijke but will answer.
If you declare a carrier as p(ositive for dwarf)/n(negative for dwarf), it means that in an egg or a sperm there is only one p or one n, in combining two carriers you get the possible pairings p/p, p/n and n/n. what means you can get negativ (no dwarf gene) dogs by pairing two carriers. The only problem is you might get some p/p out of this pairing.

Ina
This means each dog should be checked individually wheather it is nn, np or pp. No shortcuts , as usually in life
Thanks for the explanation, Ina.
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Old 08-01-2010, 17:06   #28
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I think its good time for discusion about N/N puppys (after parents,no tested) before? first litter is born.

My arguments:

pro-
*economy-genetic test is expensive (more than 100 E), so what is a sense to test dogs which are for 99,9% free?
*motivation for breeders to test own dogs-extra incentive to buy the puppys or use stud dogs.

contra-
*discrimination breeders/stud dog owners which can't get cetificat because of using carrier (negative occurrence in so small populacion)
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Old 08-01-2010, 18:11   #29
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Originally Posted by jefta View Post
pro-
*economy-genetic test is expensive (more than 100 E), so what is a sense to test dogs which are for 99,9% free?
This is true - and there is very low probability that a new mutation would be safely recognized by the existing test.
But you would still need to test them at least for the parentage. That would actually be advantageous in my opinion, as paternity and maternity certificates would ensure no cheating in CW/SW crossing for example...

But back to the original topic - in todays situation, unfortunately, the most responsible breeders, that means the ones who invest in all the health tests available, and do not hide the results, are the ones that would actually be disadvantaged, unless the buyers are very well educated in these problem and actively select only puppies from responsible owners and are prepared to pay more for that certificates. Which is unfortunately not true yet. Most of buyers are newcomers to the breed and most of them only want a dog for friendship and fun and prefer to pay less and to buy locally. Or they want dogs for shows and buy only after champions, even if those champions got their titles from referees who have never seen a wolfdog in their lives.
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Old 08-01-2010, 19:20   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijke View Post

About price for the test:
I realize it is a high price for everyone!
I often receive the comment that it is a to high for people in east European countries. And I can imagine that is problem for normal owners.
But most of the breeders in east Europe are asking the same prices like West Europe around € 1000 (and that is a lot more then I did ever ask for a pup of any breed!)
But as I did write before when a breeder counts €25 more for each pup they sell, with one litter they can earn the costs of a pituitary dwarfism test
Ok, I do understand the importance of the test, BUT.
What is the minimum fixed salary in Your country?
To make the things more clear: I live in Lithuania, I am a 26 year-old woman, who was studying journalism in Vilnius university. In my still young years I've been working as a journalist, as a public relation specialist in the Ministry of Health, in an international PR company, etc. At the moment I am the author of a TV show (regional TV) about dogs, it means that I do ALL the work in the show, except of camera. And NEVER in my life (hopefully YET ) my salary haven't reached 1000 euro per month Is the situation about Eastern Europe more clear in this light?
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Old 09-01-2010, 02:04   #31
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For your age the minimum fixed gross salary (without the 30 % tax you have to pay for this) is in my country about € 1270,- ( the same as family without work with 2 kids gets) So don't think the fairy tales about the "LUXERY WEST EUROPE" are always true for everyone here! (I know a boy of 26 with 2 different official university degrees who earns gross salary € 1850 (without the 30 % tax) and that is not any exception.)
Only the "happy few" here make more then 2 or 3 times double.


But for me it is not interesting at all to discuss about salary, price of puppy's and so on!
For everyone it is a relative high price! And when the university sell the test in e few years to a commercial laboratory, it depends of "the market" if it become higher or less.

For everyone for who is breeding as a hobby to improve a breed, it costs money (like every other hobby!)

And for your info: I don't have any benefits for this test! And I did make the test with my female after she was sterilized.

But it is always the personal choice of a owner/breeder to invest in any DNA test for the benefit of the breed for the future.
And when they don't make combinations carrier x carrier they have affords (like for example no dwarfs in a litter, less dead born pups or pups that die in first days, bigger litter. Because pituitary dwarfism is/can be the reason for these things)

And till today I am very grateful that some Dutch, Belgium and Denmark people did invest a lot of money in the test, without any obligation!
AND that they did gave permission to publish test results!


Thanks to them we could see that in 30 tested CsW's from different lines were 6 carriers.
And it is clear that this disease is more spread in the bread then we did expect.
And even when others don't test, dwarfism is one of the real problems in this bread.


But in the 6 carriers are also good CsW's (conform bonitation and HD) that will be breed in future!
And that is good , because excluding all dogs that are carrier of this or other genetic diseases would destroy a breed!
When your male or female is carrier just ask the other party to make a test!
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:33   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijke View Post
For your age the minimum fixed gross salary (without the 30 % tax you have to pay for this) is in my country about € 1270,- ( the same as family without work with 2 kids gets) So don't think the fairy tales about the "LUXERY WEST EUROPE" are always true for everyone here!
And the minimum fixed salary in Lithuania is a little bit more than 200 euro (also you still have to pay the tax, if I am not mistaken)
But it is not the topic.
Maybe I've mist something, but what is the reason it is not possible to make the same test in other countries, other labs? Maybe that would be the simple way of making more DNA tests for wolfdogs?
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Old 09-01-2010, 08:42   #33
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DNA tests normally are invented by a research-group, they nowadays get a patent (I hope the word is the same in English) and then use it themself or sell it to a commercial lab. DNA-research is expensive, at least in Germany the universities have a chronic lack of money. This is the reason why very often only one lab has the test. Other groups work on the same problems or improve the first published test so on long term there are more labs and cheaper tests.
But DNA-testing is at its beginning it will take time.

This brings us back to the idea of an international DNA-database. Mijke has found a cheap lab as far as I remember. Everybody can look in his own country for tests and labs and we can use it alltogether.

Ina
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:02   #34
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DNA tests normally are invented by a research-group, they nowadays get a patent (I hope the word is the same in English) and then use it themself or sell it to a commercial lab. DNA-research is expensive, at least in Germany the universities have a chronic lack of money. This is the reason why very often only one lab has the test. Other groups work on the same problems or improve the first published test so on long term there are more labs and cheaper tests.
But DNA-testing is at its beginning it will take time.

This brings us back to the idea of an international DNA-database. Mijke has found a cheap lab as far as I remember. Everybody can look in his own country for tests and labs and we can use it alltogether.

Ina
Sorry if my questions sound stupidly, but I really do not understand anything about the way these tests are done. A lab in Lithuania, making DNA tests for people and dogs (for dogs only to check if the parents are the same as written in pedigrees ) says, that they have a possibility to make any tests, they just need to buy the samples So I could ask them about the possibility to make the tests in Lithuania - maybe that would be cheaper? I just need to know if the same test suits for, let's say, GSD Could anyone be so kind and explain this more clearly?
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:22   #35
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To do a test you have to know exactly what gene causes the disease, so first you start with finding out if a disease is inherited and which way is likely (recessiv, dominant, autosomal, etc) than you need to find out which mutation of a gene ore genes (more often and much more complicated) causes it. For that you need a group of dogs with this disease. Then you build up a test for marking this mutation, then you verify the test for the breed you worked with (look if it really shows all carriers and ill dogs), the you make the next step to find out of the same disease is caused by the same mutation in different breeds (what is very often not the case!) and verify it for different breeds. This takes very often years.

You are carfull in publishing during this period because very often there are different groups working on one problem and who is succesfull first earns the money and the fame.
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Old 09-01-2010, 09:26   #36
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I don't think the test is being sold yet , the university did put a lot of energy and money in it to develop the test. And of course they have to get some money back before they wil sell the test.
The test was very hard to develop because the dwarf-allele where hard to find in the DNA.

But maybe.. if you can get lots of samples (about 50 or so) maybe they are willing to give you some discount.
In Holland we managed to get 7 samples at the clubmatch, so I think it would be possible for other countries to get more samples. Maybe you can find a veterinarian that want to draw some blood for free as a hobby (just like we did in Holland)
Maybe it is possible to fundraise some money especially for the dwarf test, and what you can do is only testing the new parents of litters and ask a little bit more for the puppies.
Ans as Maike says probably you wil end with more alive puppies in a litter and only if you have 1 pup more in a litter you wil have your money back from the test.

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Old 09-01-2010, 15:10   #37
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Thanks Ina and Judith for explanation!

The university is working on the specific scientific report that will be published. When it is published they will also sell the test to a commercial laboratory.

In the mean time they did not want to lose time for breeds that they can test now (GSD, SWH and CsW) So besides their other work they make the test .

I don't know if they have possibility (time) to test a very big group and give discount.
But I already did ask them to think about this.
And they did promise me to think and speak about this.
Next week I hope to receive their answer.
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Old 10-01-2010, 16:33   #38
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Hello,

I will test my two dogs as well, so we can start counting with them...

Tanja
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Old 11-01-2010, 14:25   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mijke View Post
Thanks Ina and Judith for explanation!

The university is working on the specific scientific report that will be published. When it is published they will also sell the test to a commercial laboratory.

In the mean time they did not want to lose time for breeds that they can test now (GSD, SWH and CsW) So besides their other work they make the test .

I don't know if they have possibility (time) to test a very big group and give discount.
But I already did ask them to think about this.
And they did promise me to think and speak about this.
Next week I hope to receive their answer.
I also sent a request to the lab in LT, you know, just in case If this test also "works" for GSD, that makes more possibilities to make it also here.
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Old 11-01-2010, 17:39   #40
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Ask for all tests they offer it is quite likely they are a little bit cheaper. It doesn´t matter where the lab is as long as the tests are done properly.
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