Is the CSV dog right for me???

[nask]

Hi All,

Please excuse me if what i am asking is very basic information, this is all very new to me but i would like to make the right choice for me, my family and the dog i am looking for.

First of all i am not looking to buy for at least a year, maybe longer, so i am researching for the time being. From what i have gathered on various on line pages is that this dog can be hard to handle, especially for novices or someone who has not had a dog in the past like me......

I think a lot of this is down to the training and socialisation given to the CSV and my thinking is that as long as you get the CSV as a pup then it will grow with you and become the dog you want it to be. I have always wanted a German Shepherd dog for its intelligence, my friend mentioned a Chez Border dog, and i stumbled upon the GSV and well it was love at first sight .

I guess id like to know if you guys think i can handle such an animal? i have never owned any dog before, this can be an advantage im told???? u see im quite an active person, so the dog would be with me first thing in the morning for a 30 min jog, then returned to its kennel (which is a large shed outdoors, the shed is approx 20ft in length and 10ft in width) whilst i am at work, my partner would feed it whilst i am at work. Upon returning from work i would take the CSV for a stroll in the park for an hour or so. this would be the routine from Mon - Fri, during the weekends i cycle approx 10k so again the CSV would be with me whilst i cycle as id like to make sure it gets enough exercise. I would change the routes i take as regularly as i can to make sure the CSV does not get bored.

can you guys advise if the environment i have described would be suitable for the CSV or would it require constant attention each day, all day, every day?????

I would appreciate any advise you guys can part with.

Many thanks

Nas

[Nebulosa]

First of all I consider that CzW needs an experienced owner.
Newbie owners tend to make several mistakes that would end to be only a bothering situation if you own a small/medium sized dog, but that can be catastrophical if you owns an CzW.

They need an wise and patient owner, one kind that will be able to arrive at his home tired, find his own house with even the windows cracked and smile for the situation, clean, fix it in a way your nice pet will not be able to do it again and dont kill the dog because "it was too late for correction".

Stubborn owner able to maintain a "No" because "No is NO" independent of how nice face your dog is doing.

Experienced enough to know what your dog is thinking much before he do it.

Wolfdogs are extremely intelligent, and it's not a good thing for an experienced owner, much worst for a newbie, they will learn everything fast.. everything you dont want to teach him, like how to open doors, open windows, run away from the kennel, open refrigerator and so on.

Someway we can compare them with cats, they will study your personality and behaviour, they will see your weak points and strong ones, and if you dont pay attention they will use it to manipulate you.

You should never underestimate a CzW, they can do things you consider impossible, that kennel you thought he would never jump, that window you thought he may never brake, he will. And you will get him to not do things you dont want by respect and love, and it will take time.

After adulthood they are the best dogs i've ever had, but till they mature they are like storms in our life, even for an experienced CzW owner, the new pup/young dog will be a challenge.

Perhaps you're willing to try to have a CzW accepting all the problems he will cause to your life and to your goods... but are the people who live with you also willing to it?

Also, I see that you live in UK, you know that there are no behaviourists able to deal with CzW because CzW is a new breed in your country, the same way as find a new owner in case of regret will be hard. You might think of yourself all alone with this dog, yet do you think that without experience, is it a dog for you?

I think you should first get a dog, a normal dog for be your pet and notice how challengeful a normal dog will be for you, later, after having experience with this dog, then think about a more hard breed.

[nask]

Hi, thank you for your response, my main concern was the well being of the dog, i wanted to know how often i should take it for a walk????? some peole say they need to go for 6 - 10km walk everyday!!! this i cannot commit to because i am at work on Mon, Tues + Thursday. I dont work on wednesday or friday or the weekend.... so i would make sure it gets the right amount of exercise.. in response to your question about it breaking stuff and me being angry at it, NEVER!!! an animal has its own personality and thats part of the animal, yes it will behave badly like a child does and that is where you MUST be firm with the animal, firm but fair...... Like i said i am researching the dog for at least a year before i even consider getting one... i wnat to learn about the mannerism of wolves as well as the German shepard in the same way as this chap did, i find his blog very helpful.

http://raksa.certik.cz/english-1/first-year

The only other dog i would consider is the German Shepard or the Czech Border dog, again for the intelligence of the dog, its obedience and the fact that they are good with family members.

I guess you will never know about the animal until you get one and as long as you treat it right give it the love that it needs as well as the discipline then you should be ok?

Do you mind if i ask how many dogs you had before you got the CSV? and what you thought were the differences between your previous dogs and this one? the more i research on the magnificent animal the more i love and respect it.......

[Tassle]

I am fairly knew to the breed - my boy is a cross, but I am a trainer and have a fair amount of experience with different breeds and types.

Knowing what I do about these dogs, I do not think your home situation sounds best for a dog of this type. Living as an only dog in a Kennel however many days (first post was 5 - second 3)a week could be your first big potential problem. These dogs like company and would not do well (IMHO) left to their own devices in a kennel.

[Nebulosa]

I had 4 dogs of my own before I get my first CzW, my first dog was Beagle who died with 10 years, I had a Rottweiler for 9 years and when my wolfdog arrived I had a Beagle with 2 years old and a Buldogue Campeiro with 1,5 years.
I've worked as dog behaviourist for years dealing with what we can call "problematic dogs", with real traumatized animals due bad owners or accidents, I also worked with some of the few wolfdogs (mixes, not CzW) living in my country that time.

Even being an experienced person with dogs I had hard moments with my CzWs, I have them for about 5 years right now, having 6 of them yet I have hard moments with this breed. We can say that each dog is unique, but I can tell you without fear of being wrong that CzW are more.
A dog changes your life but a CzW changes much more, mainly you will not have several options, that you would have with a normal dog, with a CzW. You will travel who will stay with your dog? A normal dog you can let in a dog hotel and a CzW? You cant, there are huge chances of them to jump the fences and run away searching for you.
It's only a simply example of differences, because it extend even to some veterinary procedures, like in anesthesia, sometimes even feeding.

When I talked about house breaking I think you had a quite simplistic view of it, and I dont guilt you for this, people will only believe what CzWs can make after see it with their own eyes, before it all breeders are liers who does not want to sell a pup to someone else trying to make people scared telling mere stories about what a CzW could do in dream world... but it's not like that, they are real beasts if you dont pay attention, they will not only destruct your shoes, but they will destruct a whole wall or put a door down. They will not only dig the garden, they can make real galleries bellow your house trying to enter. You can take it when they are starting to do it or even when they are studying a way to do such things and avoid problems, as you can simply dont see what's going on and not be able to avoid a tragedy.

Originally Posted by nask

The only other dog i would consider is the German Shepard or the Czech Border dog, again for the intelligence of the dog, its obedience and the fact that they are good with family members.

And here is when I confirms you're doing the wrong decision even in think about CzW as a possibility of a dog for you.
As I told you, CzW are very intelligent dogs, but it goes exactly in the contrary direction of being obedient. Why the dog would obey you? what is the sense of he make that command you're asking for? what he will win doing that? That's the difference between an inteligent dog and an obedient animal.

Why dont you start with a GSD, and after you get some experience with him, training and living with the dog, then you start to think about CzW, even giving a time for you to know personaly some animals of this breed to really be sure that it's one CzW you wish to live for the next 15 years.
Meet the breed personaly is completely different of only read about it.

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by Tassle

left to their own devices in a kennel.

There wouldn't be a kennel! (Shed)

[yukidomari]

when one properly owns a vlcak, they quickly realize that they are actually owned by one, instead.

it's a breed that more than others you have to tailor your life around - a breed requiring a lot of management in almost all facets of their life.

prior to my first CsV I had 4 different breeds of dog before, including Dobermann and also fostered a number of German Shepherd Dogs. I can tell you now that Vlcaks are way more difficult in a myriad of ways. And one thing that i don't think is emphasized enough is that at maturity, Vlcaks can and are selective as to which new dogs they will tolerate socializing with, especially with the same sex. many people here have young dogs now coming into maturity and are suddenly completely shocked that their dogs have become 'dog aggressive'......... i would say they are again.. selective. and one must exercise a lot of precaution and management..

i agree it would be good to have experience. whether that's keeping another breed first, regularly volunteering at a shelter to train and socialize puppies, working with dogs, joining a training club.. or something.. or even attending a few breed meet ups to meet the breed too.... all of these would be very useful.

[nask]

Hi, Thank you for your insights, i shall continue researching this breed for many, many years and settle for the GSD for now.

It seems the CSV breed is very, very intelligent but i guess it gets this intelligence from the GSD genes, so my next question is would the GSD behave in a similar manner, in terms of studying my behaviour? My understanding is that the CSV was bred with the wolf to try and increase the health of the dog without compromising on the intelligence. so should the CSV not be as obedient as the GSD? in terms of why the CSV would obey my command, id say because it sees me as the leader/alpha dog and of course for the reward associated with obeying my command? As i have said before i dont think i will get the CSV for now, mainly because of the lack of space i have in the garden and the fact that i do not have a whole lot of time to dedicate totally to the CSV. with these shortcomings it would be unfair on the CSV, so my next question is how would a GSD respond in the same environment? i would walk the dog first thing in the morning ( i have a large open park 1 min walk from where i live, very handy ) every morning and then again in the evening after work. on Wed, Fri, Sat + Sun id be with the dog the whole day.

and finally please can someone tell me how much exercise the CSV would need on a daily basis?

guys THANK YOU, THANK YOU, AAAANNNNDDDD THANK YOU again for ALL your feedback, through feedback from you guys and learning about the CSV myself i will prepare myself (as best as i can) for the day i can get one, probably a number of years away for now, i guess when i have a lot more time on my hands and a bigger garden

[nask]

Hello, i see ur based in london and was wondering how much space you have in your garden for the CSV to roam free? lol yes the shed, made of breeze blocks and not wood + with double glazed windows, its more of a pimped out room then a shed

[vila]

You have to understand that "obedience" is a human trait, or a quality that a human looks for in a dog, therefore the GSD was "tailored" to human specifications. It does not imply intelligence. "Tricks" are not necessarily an indicator for intelligence. The wolf however has to be able to survive, intelligence shows in tactics, opportunism, observation, relying on sense etc. So when we say intelligence for a CsV, we're talking about that primal intelligence. For a GSD I would say it shows signs of (or excels at) what we humans consider intelligence or obedience. You can sometimes see a growing CsV just looking at you and thinking and studying you, like you were in a zoo and the roles were reversed - the animal would study you for instinctual and primal reasons, not to please you

For your main question I would answer approx 2 hours of off leash walking. This entails playing with other dogs or with you, or running/cycling for an hour should do it. This is just the main walk in the afternoon, the dog would also need 15 morning and evening toilet walk. I could not do this alone, my sister also helps with the walks or can take over when I can't. That's also why our situation works and in that sense we are blessed to have the opportunity to own a Vlcak, and so is she because I am certain she has a very good life.

I will admit my Vila is my first dog, she does not have the option of a garden, so walks are important. For her that is a perfect situation, she is always indoors with us and that feels logical to her - to be with her pack and not left alone. This situation only works for us, because there is always someone home and the dog is never alone. If however we do go somewhere where Vila can't come, we have only a few friends with who we do daily walks with their dogs, so we trust each other and babysit each other's dogs when needed.

New time owner, it's possible but you have to have a looooooooooot of room for improvisation - forget the plans for the shed, you also need at least 2 or 3 contingency plans. And all the family members have to be in it for the long run 100%. I'm glad to see you doing good research ahead of time. Don't make a decision for or against too quickly. Try to arrange a meet with a CsV, only take good first hand advice, be weary of dog schools's advice. Most have never even met a Vlcak and they try to teach them completely the same as they would any other pet doggy, generally doesn't work though

[tupacs2legs]

Good point about mature csv's and strange dogs...so many people new to the breed become 'expert(I have only lived with the breed for 4 years)and advise people 'yes,great with other dogs' they are sometimes lulled into false security as they mature late and change a lot,you have to be prepared for a dog that may not mix well,although it seems friends made while young stay forever friends

Also re the 30min jog.... If your dog knows this is the norm they will 'single track' it(use the least but most effcient energy) so self regulate like the husky does....it won't cut it for mental or physical 'tiredness'... You have to be more inventive or at least more varied than that

Your shed may be a penthouse but u don't live in there too

And yes they study you,watch you and learn...one of mine has become an expert at opening the dog gate which u have to squeeze,pull up and push.....all by watching me! And doors? U will need to turn the handles upside down

[nask]

is it weird that the more i learn about the behaviour and the intelligence of the CSV the more i want one....... i love the fact that it is studying me as i study it.... that way we both learn about each others boundaries and learn to respect them from the very beginning.... i think i may not be explaining myself very well ref the shed, it is only a place for the CSV to stay warm in or sleep in..... the door will be controlled by the CSV it will at no point be locked in the shed, my garden is a L shaped garden which the CSV can roam freely (admittedly its not a massive garden) I live with my mother and my wife, my mother is always at home so at no point will the dog be on its own, i work 15 minutes from where i live so i can on a daily basis come home for lunch and take the dog for a afternoon walk if need be... with ref to obedience i meant recall so the dog comes to me when called, i dont want it to shake hands, play dead or roll over, its a dog not a circus animal. i mainly want the dog for companionship and the fact that it will fit in with my active lifestyle. i have always wanted a dog since i was a child, plus i prefer the company of an animal over most people i know im weird, lol.... especially after returning from pakistan where my dad has a farm, with bulls, buffalo, cows, chickens, lambs, dogs and cats, so whenever i go to visit him my first question is where is the dog and how healthy is it, i then immediately feed the dog even though it might be barking and snarling at me at first.. i earn its trust and by the end of my holiday its my best friend :-) i fell for wlf like dogs when i travelled to iceland and went sledging with a pack of huskys, man they were awesome, at first i did not approach them because of all the negative things i read about them being pack animals and only responding to the master, yadlah, yadlah, yadlah.. but after speaking with the chap who ran the sledging i approached the pack on my knees so they did not see me as a threat and i was at one point sat around the entire pack :-) and one in particular was my favourite due to her cheekiness and she knew exactly how to get the attention she wanted.

please see the link http://raksa.certik.cz/english-1/first-year

i found this of great help, the owner had never previously had a dog and this worked to his advantage, he did study Konrad Lorenz, world-renowned ethologist books on the behaviour of dogs beforehand.

Can i ask what you mean by "you also need at least 2 or 3 contingency plans."

i apologise if i write too much or if i am asking for too much of your time... i appreciate each and every response, your knowledge and experience is worth its weight in gold...

[Rona]

Hi,
There have been a few similar threads, e.g.

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=22686

and

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17300

I hope they will clear out some of your concerns

[vila]

By contingency plans I meant that you may work out a plan for your CsV and it might work "on paper". You have to be prepared if the things don't work out accordingly... it may be very uncomfortable for a dog to be in a shed. You can put all the blankets and pillows you want, but a dog, especially a Vclak can feel trapped, so it may come to the point that it will destroy you shed. No problem for a Vlcak if it's made out of wood or it can start howling all night so the neighbors start complaining, it can be very traumatizing for a dog. A kennel should least have open doors, so a dog can choose to sleep out in the air and be aware of it's surroundings. A dog may end up sleeping somewhere near you, or you'll have to build a more appropriate kennel. If you're planning to get a male, the weight and force may be too much for a smaller woman or an older person...

I know you will probably respond with answers to all of this, but by that you will be only confirming that you missed the point ...if you know what I mean? The fact is you don't know what kind of dog you'll get (if you get a CsV). It may be very shy and scared, or independent and self confident. A single plan cannot cover all types of characters, you should expect the unexpected with a CsV. Like others said, owning a CsV can mean adapting your life around the needs of the dog, at least to some extent. And that means adapting while the dog matures and grows, not making some arrangements before the dog even gets there and assumimg it will be ok I'm not trying to be a smart-ass, I still have much to learn. But when I think about how I envisioned the life with a Vlcak before owning one and now that I see how everything is turning out... man it's a whole different ball game hahah, but we found a way and that's what matters to me. I'm in no position to advise you on any definite decisions, I'll leave that to more experienced owners. My input is simply that of a newbie with a 2 and a half year old Vila and a veeeeeery steep learning curve

[nask]

Rona, thank you for the links very interesting readings...

[nask]

Vila, you dont come across as a smart ass just someone who is trying to give me first hand advise, and i appreciate it.

Nas

[Tassle]

If this dog is allowed a free run of the garden when it is not being supervised and it knows you are not there, I would question how secure your garden is. My cross is the biggest dog I have (he is about 28in to the shoulder and weighs about 35kg). He can Squeeze through tiny gaps, and 6/7ft fences will not keep him in if he wants to go.

He never wants to leave my area, but will do anything he can to get to me.

I'm sure he sees each obstacle as a new challenge

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Tassle

He never wants to leave my area, but will do anything he can to get to me.

I'm sure he sees each obstacle as a new challenge

Here's an example:
Lorka's half brother for a few months had been taken by his owner to work. She commuted every day about 25 miles, driving mainly along a very busy road full of heavy vehicles with the dog sitting in harness in the front seat and watching the road.
One day she had important clients, so she locked him in a kennel and went to her office on her own. After less than two hours the dog was sitting at the gate of her office.

After the initial shock, when driving do work she started using longer route but driving along less busy side roads, just to teach the dog a safer way.

[Tassle]

Originally Posted by Rona

Here's and example:
Lorka's half brother for a few months had been taken by his owner to work. She commuted every day about 25 miles, driving mainly along a very busy road full of heavy vehicles with the dog sitting in harness on the front seat and watching the road.
One day she had important clients, so she locked him in a kennel and went to her office on her own. After less than two hours the dog was sitting at the gate of her office.

After the initial shock, when driving do work she started using longer route but along less busy, side roads, just to teach the dog a safer way.

I'm sure Zeff does it for the challenge - he never seems 'pleased' to see me - just a glance in my direction and follows me to wherever I happen to be going next!

Wonderful dogs!! lol!!

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by Rona

Here's and example:
Lorka's half brother for a few months had been taken by his owner to work. She commuted every day about 25 miles, driving mainly along a very busy road full of heavy vehicles with the dog sitting in harness on the front seat and watching the road.
One day she had important clients, so she locked him in a kennel and went to her office on her own. After less than two hours the dog was sitting at the gate of her office.

After the initial shock, when driving do work she started using longer route but along less busy, side roads, just to teach the dog a safer way.

My eldest was at work with me,he was with my friend (that also works there)he has known her from the day I got him and he looooves her,I had popped out the building,its a vets with a door that seperates the kennel and operating room from the shop and front desk,unable to be opened from the inside and that's where the dogs stay,my friend went to put the rubbish out the back and he got past her!! She panicked(he didn't)just was on a mission! looking at her as she followed him as if to say 'what's the fuss' on a main road round the block(if he had seen me it could of been a disaster ).....his mission? When she caught up with him he was waiting on the front doorstep!!!(He obviously thought I was in the shop section)..... He had never been out that way