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Old 23-03-2011, 10:46   #181
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CSV are testing a single mutation in the SOD1 gene (considered a major risk factor at the moment). I think that in the future, discovering another SOD1 gene mutations that will affect the expression of the disease.
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Old 23-03-2011, 10:56   #182
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Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
I never had seen (on my own eyes) wolfdog with visible problems because DM.
Why you ask ?
Honestly - because I think we should not wish "long life without any symptoms" to any DM/DM dogs... In the most cases I would rather wish other (sometimes N/N) dogs to move in the old age as good as some of these DM/DM dogs...

Best example - Baron....
His father Gaius was living 14 years and till the end he was pretty good moving dog ("extremly good moving" when we take into consideration his age). When he was over 10 years old he was still moving much better than many YOUNGER (5-6 years old) dogs which we can see running in the show rings...
Dia Kollárov dvor at the age of 10 years is moving like young female and she is still alive (trying to beat Gaius? ).

For sure you know how many dogs are not so lucky - they are much younger but show already symptoms of degenerations.

The problem are really not the dogs with DM/DM which move simply great (and where selection will be done) but the dogs which are N/N and are used as pupular stud dogs even if they move like cripples...
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Old 23-03-2011, 11:07   #183
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Hi Margo,

maybe Hanka hasn't seen one, but I can show you a dog ( Crying Wolf Falco ) with clearly diagnosed DM not far from our place.
We had him at our place for 2 weeks and believe me, it was not nice seeing him wobbling through our garden.
And he's not the only one.

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Old 23-03-2011, 11:11   #184
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Margo, I know very well, dog DM/DM can be "health" = without problems to last moment. But second dog with DM/DM can have really big problems with movement. (Everybody here had seen videos). So I think my wishing of health to owners of DM/DM dogs is nothing bad. I really want health for all DM/DM dogs. Have you got problem with it?
I don´t write about some other wolfdogs or about parents of DM/DM dogs,....etc. It is not my problem. I need not your explanaition. Really. I had genetics and breeding in school.
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Old 23-03-2011, 11:14   #185
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Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn View Post
maybe Hanka hasn't seen one, but I can show you a dog ( Crying Wolf Falco ) with clearly diagnosed DM not far from our place.
Yes, I know about him. I also know that Forrest has the same problems. And it it known that DM is a problem exactly in this line... and there is a MUST to make a selection there... It apply also to the second line with known problems.

But the reason of my question was something different: how many OTHER dogs with DM did you saw? Which were not OLD but had problems with movement? I know the goosips spread about two more dogs fromt he origin countries but I heard also that for 100% they are not DM/DM....
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Old 23-03-2011, 11:20   #186
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I know it is repeating, but maybe somebody had not seen it:



But here is thread about DM, Margo. If you want speak about wolfdogs with some other problems in movement, you can open new thread.
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Old 23-03-2011, 11:23   #187
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Originally Posted by Hanka View Post
Margo, I know very well, dog DM/DM can be "health" = without problems to last moment. But second dog with DM/DM can have really big problems with movement. (Everybody here had seen videos). So I think my wishing of health to owners of DM/DM dogs is nothing bad. I really want health for all DM/DM dogs. Have you got problem with it?
I don´t write about some other wolfdogs or about parents of DM/DM dogs,....etc. It is not my problem. I need not your explanaition. Really. I had genetics and breeding in school.
Why your are getting so angry? What is the problem? The question was really harmless - you are breeding dogs for a long time. Did you saw any dogs which were not old but having problems with movement like the dogs on the videos?

I spoke with several breeders in private and they listed some old dogs which are moving not so good but all of them are 12, 13 or 14 years old. No wonder - nobody is so crazy to expect that for examplke a 98 years old grandpa is moving like a 21 years old boy...


Anyway - basing on the fact that the mutation in the SOD1 gene is only a factor for the development of DM and the ilness seems to be caused by more genes it is really important to select the dogs (lines) where there are not only carriers but also dogs which shows symptoms of DM - especially in the early age.
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Old 23-03-2011, 11:28   #188
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I had seen a few old wolfdogs with problems in movement. But- of course- not so big like on videos.
But I think it is writting about nothing.............
Lorry, Satu, I cross fingers for your dogs.
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Old 23-03-2011, 11:29   #189
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But here is thread about DM, Margo. If you want speak about wolfdogs with some other problems in movement, you can open new thread.
No, I'm talking about DM - you was breeding comittee member in Czech Republic. Could you list us dogs in CZ which show DM symtoms like the dog showed on the video (let say which you saw in the last 10 years)... I really do not ask for DM/DM-carriers dogs but for the dogs which are really ILL...

I hope it is not a top secret information which some people try to hide - especially in the case where official information is so important....

I really want to know how spread in the problem and how many dogs are afflicted by DM...
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Old 23-03-2011, 12:22   #190
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Hello,

it is very secure we need a second, if not several factors including the onset of DM. How many of the dogs DM/DM where ill? In witch age the dogs where ill? For what % from the dogs we speak? We know to less in the moment!
According the university Bern in Switzerland where dogs ill from the race Hovawart the are DM/DM and DM/N. Other dogs from the Hovawart where not ill and they are DM/DM.

We make a Witch-Hunting!
Right now it like the plague during the Middle Ages is based on the genetic decline in the breed.

What if the medical-scientists decode the other 200-400 diseases? What we then made?

We need to observe and test, but it is too early, the results may have influence in the breed.
Look in this thread: Dogs who are N/N where celebration, dogs with DM/N where only ok, and dogs where DM/DM: Oh my Lord, the poor dogs.

This is not god for the breed, this is the beginning from the end!

By the way: All my dogs are testet!


This is my private opinion. It is difficult to explain this to me, my english is not good.

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Old 23-03-2011, 19:46   #191
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More from Finland:

Forever Wolf Arctic Storm
Degenerative Myelopathy - PCR
Result: Genotype: N/DM
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Old 23-03-2011, 19:48   #192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post

Best example - Baron....
His father Gaius was living 14 years and till the end he was pretty good moving dog ("extremly good moving" when we take into consideration his age). When he was over 10 years old he was still moving much better than many YOUNGER (5-6 years old) dogs which we can see running in the show rings...
Dia Kollárov dvor at the age of 10 years is moving like young female and she is still alive (trying to beat Gaius? )..
Sorry Margo, this example has no basis, has no sense.
Baron is DM/DM; it is possible, it is probable, it is plausible that he has inherited the genes from two heterozygous ... considering that the homozygous can't show symptoms (and these symptoms are in no way connected to the physical deterioration caused by age old), I do not understand what's so strange (enough to be cited as an example) if Dia and Gaius have a good movement despite his age, and his son Baron found to be homozygous DM / DM.

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Old 23-03-2011, 19:58   #193
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Just a simple question, but could it be that dogs that are not DM/DM yet still have movement problems, be afflicted with another unrelated and yet unknown degenerative disease? Another disease which works through another biological mechanism.

If so, wouldn't it be conservatively prudent to say that dogs which are DM/DM as well as dogs with hence so far undiagnosed condition are both at risk for some type of degenerative condition, and both at risk to pass those genes, known and unknown to litters?

Are the two conditions interchangeable, and if not, can't they be approached as two different 'illnesses', so to speak?
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Old 23-03-2011, 21:23   #194
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Sorry Margo, this example has no basis, has no sense.
Baron is DM/DM; it is possible, it is probable, it is plausible that he has inherited the genes from two heterozygous ... considering that the homozygous can't show symptoms (and these symptoms are in no way connected to the physical deterioration caused by age old), I do not understand what's so strange (enough to be cited as an example) if Dia and Gaius have a good movement despite his age, and his son Baron found to be homozygous DM / DM.
Nothing is strange.... Of course it is possible that Gaius and Dia are "only" carriers... I know it...

The point is something else - that after all the speaks, days of disscusion we came again to the very old rule which so many breeders use: to look on the dogs and their offsprings - to evaluate "general health" of a line and not (only) on the health results of one or two dogs...

Because if we will take into consideration only one result we can land in a bigger troubles than only DM...

Some breeder took part in the witch hunt and they decided to make the 'political correct' litters... They have carriers females (sometimes females "at risk"). Because they decided to make the DM-result the ONLY selection for their litters - look what happend...
One kennel get litter of 3 puppies, one died, one in untypical, one is OK... But great - the only normal one which seems to be a normal wolfdog is only "carrier"... Maybe it is political correct litter but I will not take such puppy even for free... (as it seems the puppies had several other health problems).
Let's take the another breeder who took DM-free stud dog - the only tested in her country but with look and body of a german shepherd.... The puppies already now do not move typical - they move like GSD - sad look...
Another case of breeder who was "affraid" to use "carrier" - instead of it she used "N/N" (free) dog which.... had already serious problems to move at the age of 2 years.... The new puppy owners will be for sure happy that their puppies will not have problems with movement at the age of 10-14 years old but... they can get the problems typical for the father at the age of 2 years....
(I changed some facts in order not to blame any breeders but to talk about the problematic)

Look - I'm really for the tests. And I'm for the selection. But I see that some breeders are starting to drive crazy... Some start to think to sterylize really good dogs only because they are carriers. Another in the name of DM-selection make the most stupid litters a person can do... And they would not make such mistakes if they really would take in the consideration ALL the possible risks...

We want to make selection for DM.... but at the moment what we are getting in many cases are litters where INSTEAD of DM genes we get toons of different problems and degenerations which are also influencing the movement of the dogs... Problems which appear MUCH FASTER than the DM-problems....

So my question is one more time the same: how it looks with the DM problems? How many tested dogs (DM/DM) are really ill? How it looks with this problem in the Czech Republic - how many dogs were put down because of it? Which lines?
I do not ask about "maybe dogs" as the last two examples of "for sure ill" dogs I get are DM/N!!!!

It is really important to know it... I just wonder about aversion of some people to publish some pure facts... Why it is so top secret? Because there are so many dogs? In this case we should be informed which dogs/lines are "black listed". Or maybe they do not know any other ill dogs - in this case we must start a work to look if maybe we need another tests... Or maybe take into consideration that by Wolfdogs it is much more complicated...?
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Old 23-03-2011, 21:51   #195
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Default DM symptoms...

In GSD, the current "theory" is that up to 25% of the population is DM/DM. Not all of those GSD develop DM symptoms, though other things may kill them before the disease manifests itself - things like bloat/gastric torsion, for instance, may kill a GSD before it ever shows symptoms.
I also would like to know (if possible) how many DM/DM CsVs end up getting symptoms. The information on diet and lifestyle may affect whether or not the disease manifests.
CsVs live longer than the typical GSD and perhaps the "wolf" genetics protect them from symptom development to some degree. We will only know if we collect information. Knowing these factors could very well positively impact not only CsVs with DM, but GSDs also (who seem to have a higher rate and more severe cases of DM symptom development).
If we surmise that CsVs (due to their genetic heritage) have a similar percentage of DM/DM animals (25%) but far fewer actual cases of disease symptoms, we need to look at outside factors that may influence disease development.
As it is now, the GSD community as a whole, seems to be ignoring the genetic test, citing that not all DM/DM dogs get DM symptoms. Obviously there are other factors at play that trigger disease development. By collecting as much information as we can (even though at this point it is "anecdotal" and not truly "scientific") we may be able to see some correlations or trends that can be studied more in depth - without open discussion, though, we simply bury our heads in the sand...
We are all stewards of our breed(s) and need to look at the big picture rather than any "embarrassment" over whether or not our dogs have DM (as if it is our fault!). I would encourage those who have dogs with DM/DM results to carefully note diet, health and environment and perhaps even donate tissue samples for further study so that we can all learn and perhaps remove this debilitating disease from our breed.
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Old 24-03-2011, 08:24   #196
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If I breed dogs, whose ancestors have become very old in good health, then I have "general health"!
Right now everyone screams for DM and thereafter bred!... .. what then?
And without knowing the cause of the disease. Why Hovawart sick when they are DM/N? We know to less in the moment, but we are select for DM? What is for other diseases?
What if other diseases are genetically decoded?



This is my oppinion.


Greetings
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Old 24-03-2011, 08:26   #197
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After the tests, the sale of puppies is not easy. Who wants a carrier? Others understand the tests to be only one tool in breeding. Others breeders or dog owners are afraid of being blacklisted. (I already have a bad reputation and we have only ill dogs)

I am a proud breeder of the litter carrier. Ikala x Baron

For me, all the untested dogs are sick until proven otherwise.
I do not want to blame other breeders, not covered by their policies.

Margo: When you have seen Baron? over 3 years ago. He is not a same dog anymore.
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Old 24-03-2011, 08:29   #198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by z Peronówki View Post
dog which.... had already serious problems to move at the age of 2 years....
And what are the reasons of these moving problems? Are they because of anatomical structure? Or is it a disease?
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Old 24-03-2011, 08:43   #199
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Can be wrong anathomy, physical inactivity or diseases DM, Spondylosis, Ataxia...

But true is if we take all carriers away from breeding we can have more serious illness.
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Old 24-03-2011, 14:35   #200
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At the moment, the witch-hunt to watch following: There are almost only used male dogs with N/N.

Here again the implications for breeding:

Maybe about 25% of dogs have DM / DM. Then about 20% of these will go out of the breed.

Maybe about 50% of dogs have DM/N. Then maybe only 10% of these will go out of the breed (mostly males)

The remaining 25% of all dogs go into breed, but is often taken (mostly males)

Without the shift to dogs with N/N, we already have a loss of about 30% of all dogs. Then the shift to the N/N -> We have a loss of between 20 to 40% will have the genetic diversity,… if it goes on!

This is just an example. Everyone can expect for yourself.
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