CLC mixes in France and Finland (subject on French forum)

martiou07 · 07-01-2011, 07:04

Hello,

a subject on dogs produces in France has to start, a member of the forum required that is opinion other stockbreeders more tested in order to know their opinions.

I leave you the link, so as of time you want to take part in it, all the opinion are good to take

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16432

try to put of with dimensions the various remarks from some which are frankly except subject….

Nebulosa · 07-01-2011, 07:32

if those dogs are pure or not only an specific DNA test will show, the fact is that they should not be used on breeding as they are not tipical according to the breed standard.

Does not matter if someone find it wolfish or not, even because "be wolfish" often have more to do about "what your imagination about the wolves said" than "what the wolves really are", there is a breed standard which should be respected, people are suppose to be breeding Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, a DOG BREED recognized by FCI at group 1, remember that.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 07-01-2011, 16:31

Hi,

very interesting thread indeed...
I thought it's already known for quite a while that there are wolf crosses and crosses with so called American Wolfdogs around in France, registered as CSW's.
They've already produced (not only in France) FCI registered pups.
I saw them in several dog shows.
Paula, it's not the phenotype but the genotype which is interesting.
Forget about the breed standard...

Michael

Nebulosa · 07-01-2011, 18:52

Genotype produce phenotype, both are connected even if the genotype often hold some features hidden, what can genotype produce at phenotype can be full shown in an animal mantained in good conditions as can stay hidden or be changed in an animal mantained in bad condition or which had some kind of problem.

Im not talking here about defects but about typical or not according to the breed standard, when you see this dog you say "it is not a CzW", independant of his genotype this dog should not be used in a dog breed as something wrong happen or something is hidden, like fake pedigrees and mixage.

Without the breed standard and without dogs which follow it, there will be no breed at all.
If people does not want to breed typical dogs according to this standard, then they should change of breed.

---EDIT----
Oh, sorry, I didn't got the irony first and I've already jumped in the neck.
I'm getting traumatized with wolfdog people when we talk about breed standard and selection.

---EDIT²---
I will let it here as it will be informative to some people

michaelundinaeichhorn · 07-01-2011, 19:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Im not talking here about defects but about typical or not according to the breed standard, when you see this dog you say "it is not a CzW", independant of his genotype this dog should not be used in a dog breed as something wrong happen or something is hidden, like fake pedigrees and mixage.

I know what you mean, but I've seen many purebred CSW's looking much more untypical compared with this animal we're talking about. Many!

So what do you think, does this animal http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/10293
look typical according to the standard?

To me this animal looks bloody perfect according to the breed standard.

And, hand on your heart, do you think this animal is a purebred CSW?
With all the ancestors you can see in his pedigree?

Michael

Mikael · 08-01-2011, 00:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

So what do you think, does this animal http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/11911

And, hand on your heart, do you think this animal is a purebred CSW?
With all the ancestors you can see in his pedigree?

Michael

Hmmmm, No... Probably not

???

michaelundinaeichhorn · 07-01-2011, 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Oh, sorry, I didn't got the irony first and I've already jumped in the neck.
I'm getting traumatized with wolfdog people when we talk about breed standard and selection.

Me too, believe me.

Michael

Nebulosa · 07-01-2011, 20:21

He does not have the features we could expect comming from this line and from these parents, also everyone who used similar line didnt got such dogs then something is wrong.
Being CzW coming at his bases from a mix between Carpatian Wolf and German Shepherd, I dont wonder that if you mix an European wolf with a CzW you will get very standardized dogs looking like pure blood animals, pricipaly if you see that the standard itself requires something very similar to a carpatian wolf.
I also not wonder why he did such mix and why it was mate with C'pouchka, a dog which CzW and Carpatian wolf had pass far away.
As Genetic is not like matematic, his intentions failed.

07-01-2011, 07:04	#1
martiou07 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,986	CLC mixes in France and Finland (subject on French forum) Hello, a subject on dogs produces in France has to start, a member of the forum required that is opinion other stockbreeders more tested in order to know their opinions. I leave you the link, so as of time you want to take part in it, all the opinion are good to take http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=16432 try to put of with dimensions the various remarks from some which are frankly except subject…. __________________

07-01-2011, 07:32	#2
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	if those dogs are pure or not only an specific DNA test will show, the fact is that they should not be used on breeding as they are not tipical according to the breed standard. Does not matter if someone find it wolfish or not, even because "be wolfish" often have more to do about "what your imagination about the wolves said" than "what the wolves really are", there is a breed standard which should be respected, people are suppose to be breeding Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs, a DOG BREED recognized by FCI at group 1, remember that. __________________

07-01-2011, 18:52	#4
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	Genotype produce phenotype, both are connected even if the genotype often hold some features hidden, what can genotype produce at phenotype can be full shown in an animal mantained in good conditions as can stay hidden or be changed in an animal mantained in bad condition or which had some kind of problem. Im not talking here about defects but about typical or not according to the breed standard, when you see this dog you say "it is not a CzW", independant of his genotype this dog should not be used in a dog breed as something wrong happen or something is hidden, like fake pedigrees and mixage. Without the breed standard and without dogs which follow it, there will be no breed at all. If people does not want to breed typical dogs according to this standard, then they should change of breed. ---EDIT---- Oh, sorry, I didn't got the irony first and I've already jumped in the neck. I'm getting traumatized with wolfdog people when we talk about breed standard and selection. ---EDIT²--- I will let it here as it will be informative to some people __________________ Last edited by Nebulosa; 07-01-2011 at 19:31.

07-01-2011, 20:21	#8
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	He does not have the features we could expect comming from this line and from these parents, also everyone who used similar line didnt got such dogs then something is wrong. Being CzW coming at his bases from a mix between Carpatian Wolf and German Shepherd, I dont wonder that if you mix an European wolf with a CzW you will get very standardized dogs looking like pure blood animals, pricipaly if you see that the standard itself requires something very similar to a carpatian wolf. I also not wonder why he did such mix and why it was mate with C'pouchka, a dog which CzW and Carpatian wolf had pass far away. As Genetic is not like matematic, his intentions failed. __________________

07-01-2011, 16:31	#3
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Hi, very interesting thread indeed... I thought it's already known for quite a while that there are wolf crosses and crosses with so called American Wolfdogs around in France, registered as CSW's. They've already produced (not only in France) FCI registered pups. I saw them in several dog shows. Paula, it's not the phenotype but the genotype which is interesting. Forget about the breed standard... Michael