Differences in breeding strategies and regulations

[Neufi-friend]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Neufi-friend, its your 3º post talking about or trying to attack Zlata Palz kennel, that means, all your posts.

I think you misunderstood my answers because I do not use other way of expression than Michael is using for the whole time. In the German forum you can read his very negative opinions about the health of dogs coming from Crying wolf kennel, about the mass production of puppies by Passo of Lupo or Christian's choice. Any many other dogs and breeders. For a long time I though it was a sign of experience and promotion of the right way of breeding. Oh, I was naive.
You recognized my expressions as attack but it is only showing my disappointment because whom I consider for a long time as serious breeder is not a little bit better person than breeders he criticizes. And with every new private message I receive it makes me more sad.
You all have very professional web pages and great database but the level of the breeders stay fare behind the level of internet presentation and it is not possible to call such kind of behaviour as a "responsible breeding".

And reading the opinions written in this topic by breeders (?) which do not see anything wrong on producing 20 puppies of one female within one year I feel really sad for this breed and the dogs which such people own.
I could write that for me it is pure abuse of the female but it is not about my private opinion. One thing what you can not change and you must all follow are the regulations; and the VDH says "only one litter per year is allowed". Mr. Massimo please do not hide behind being "pitty of missing a litter" because we all are not children which are not able to count - mother of this litter gave birth to puppies in December, so she was covered in October. The next heat will be due next October. If there would be no litter this time they will not loose anything. Because there was one litter born last year (01.2008) and it was sure when they would not cover the female now the next litter would be born in 2009. It means no "lost" heats but also keeping to the RULES. Is it so hard?
I checked the German forum once again and still I have no explanation for it. There is written that the VDH allowed it because the female is healthy. And the main explanation given by the breeder is that the female was forced to have 20 puppies a year because she "loves puppies so much". Does it mean other German breeders keep to the rules because they females are in bad condition and they need more time to recover than the Michael's females? Or maybe although also other femals are in great contition other breeders do not cover them twice a years because the regulations and the good of the dogs is much more important than rising as many puppies as possible?
Everyone of us know mutt females which have litters 3 times a year and look healthy but I don't know any serious and responsible breeder who will cover his female 3 times a year even if he could. Also I will not call a responsible breeder person who ask for such behaviour permission (don't forget in Germany something is not officialy allowed and you must ask for special permission).
Of course I can be wrong and the breeder asked a special permission and the litter will be counted for the year 2009. In this case - if I get guarantee that Falin will have no other litter in 2009 I will officially apologize here.

Originally Posted by massimo

I suppose you mean to say that Zlata Palz puppy owners can be conditioned and bribed some way by Micheal Eichorn?
This is a very superficial remark...
I own a Passo del Lupo, a Crying Wolf and a Zlata Palz.
(...)
If mating a female within a year difference is forbidden in Germany but not in Italy, France, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, then it is a German problem, NOT OURS.
You should know well that "skipping" a heat for a CSW means to wait a whole year because of 1 heat per year, and specially when heat is difficult it is a pity to miss.
Also, if puppies were born 11 and then 9 it is not the breeder's fault.
Maybe you suggest to kill 2 or 3 pups so he can be "regular?".

You are wrong while You write it is not YOUR problem since English forum is a place when breeders from all countries meet and the forum where users are dealing with all kind of problems, it is also the right place for my question. It is not about problem in my country but a problem of breeders who do not keep to the kennel club regulations in their countries. And if the regulation ask you to skip the heat you have to do this.
And Your try to absolve abusing of the females is for me incomprehensible.
From the other side what I took the look on the dogs you own and listed I must admit that you have a very weird kind of choosing the breeders. I'm not familiar with TWH but I know your kennel names since all are pretty "famous" on this forum. And even if only 50 percent of the facts written by Michael about the mass production of puppies by Passo del Lupo and health and character problems in this kennel or the story about Crying wolf written by Christian after he took Myla: about very poor conditions and puppies growing up in rabbit cages in this kennel I would say openly I will never made the choice like you while choosing the puppies. I do not care about any stories about quality, or missing quality, of the dogs coming from both kennels but purely about the conditions. While buying puppies you pay money which force the breeders to produce more and more dogs who are being abused in this way. And indirectly the puppy buyers like you are also responsible for the poor life the poor dogs lead there.
Since last few days I will also not recommend Zlata Palz but as far I can see it fits to your preferences. I can understand you will protect it because if you would not agree with the kind of treating animals in the three listed kennels you would also not buy a puppy from them.
But I hope you also understand that for many other dog owners the life of animals and conditions in which they are living and the way they are threated are more important than the pedigree, puppies and money.

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Then as you're almost an anonimous here you will have 3 days to fullfill your user datas on control panel or I will have reason to think you're nothing than a troll.

Please believe me I was thinking about this till I read the words written by Michael:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Still no balls?
Usually I tell people with no name to bugger off, but since Newfoundland Dogs and obviously their friends are not the fastest moving animals, I kindly ask you now to introduce yourself.
Otherwise you're not worthy wasting an answer on.
Michael

First as far I know according the netiquette all personal attacks are forbidden and I hope the moderator will also suffer consequences in this case.
For me two things become clear: instead of any explanations all I get is hiding the truth and trying to avoid any official answers. Soon I will be banned only because I asked wrong questions to the wrong person. Nice way of dealing with any opponents. KGB can learn of it.
From the other side the answers I get from Michael, even if they do not include any facts, are also a clear answer for me that my suspicions must be true because they caused such enormous aggression. It made me clear which kind of person is my debater.
Instead of discussion and answers all I get are personal attack on my dogs and me. I hope you will understand that I will not publish my personal information since I was already informed that all I can get after it is not a clear answer but offending phone calls full of fury.

[Neufi-friend]

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

I discovered that kennel Zlatá Palz bred 10 litters and 4 of them are not bred according the VDH regulations (it means almost 50%)

I get PN that also the first litter is not bred according the VDH regulation: it makes 5 litters of 10.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

I hope you will understand that I will not publish my personal information since I was already informed that all I can get after it is not a clear answer but offending phone calls full of fury.

Against all better knowledge I will take you seriously and give you some good advise:
You should look for better information sources very urgently.
And try to do what every sensible person does: Get your informations from the persons directly instead of following rumors...But of course that would ask for at least some little bit of straight thinking.
The VDH is the only one ruling the breeding in Germany, they register the dogs, they give the pedigrees, none of them owns a CSW and none of them is a fool. All litters have normal pedigrees and registration and now start thinking, it´s more than time.

Ina

[Hanka]

So: how it works in Germany? , I don´t understand. Is there club, what have any regulations? And: if somebody does something wrong- does club anything against it? Is there any club goverment? Can club punish some bad breeder? (For example- litter without pedigree?)
Who watch all breeders? Works there any breedcomission what watch health of breed?
If no- why you have not working club?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Germany has the kennel club = VDH and Breeding Clubs that are members of the VDH. To get a Breeding Club you have to show how many dogs and different lines (not related up to the 4-5th generation) you have, nationally, not internationally. You have to pay 14 000 Euros (you can get a reduction to 7 000 if you are lucky). Then you have a period of two years to get specialised judges (that are not allowed to start training before that) and breeding controlers (who have to do a special training too and can´t start befor the period) of your own, judges and breeding controlers have to be breeders. After that period you have to show that you have done all that and continued to build up the breed. Than you have to pay again 14 ooo (or 7000) and when you are lucky you are a member then.
We (the first German Club) are trying to get there since more than a decade, we may be succesfull in the nearer future but don´t know for sure.
Till then you need for breeding in Germany a hip x-ray, an eye test not older than 1 year, 1 exhibition and one special exhibition for breeding, that´s all.
Pedigrees, registration and special permissions are given by the VDH directly.
Bonitations, Edurance tests, ED-x-rays and everything else is done volunteeringly and not asked for by the VDH.

Ina

[Hanka]

Thank you Ina for explain. And now please explain me. Is anywhere wroted: how often female can have pups, what must be conditions for parents? (age, shows, X-ray, zuchtsulassung or bonitation, etc)? And who watch and control it? is it work of club?
From forum it looks you don´t keep theese conditions. So what is true?
Because this is never ending story. Only attacks and attacks.....
It is bad, to read only the same: problems between people. it is not about wolfdogs already.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Thank you Ina for explain. And now please explain me. Is anywhere wroted: how often female can have pups, what must be conditions for parents? (age, shows, X-ray, zuchtsulassung or bonitation, etc)?And who watch and control it? is it work of club?

As I wrote before the one who watches and controlles is the VDH and there the persons in charge for breed or special problems. The conditions for Zuchtzulassung in Germany are as I wrote. If you want to use dogs under special conditions you have to ask for permissions, you have to explain why and the person of the VDH decides if you get the permission and under what conditions. For mating Falin again for example we had to get her checked from a vet that is working for the VDH as a verified vet. The reason why we asked is that she is very likely to go into professional work this year and then will be out of breeding at least 2 years until I have a second fully trained dog. The reason why we got it is that there is no such rule in the other countries, the rule was made for breeds that get in heat twice and there is absolutely no medical reason against it.

Every kennel club in every country has this possibility and uses it. If you fullfill the conditions and ask in advance they get full Registration and pedigree.

Originally Posted by Hanka

Because this is never ending story. Only attacks and attacks.....
It is bad, to read only the same: problems between people. it is not about wolfdogs already.

This is why I stopped answering directly in the forum and got to PM and would ask to do so if anybody has questions.
As long as people like Christian and Neufi-friend get attention the quarrel will go on. The reason is not concern of the breed but trying to discredit and blackmail, it is as simple as that.
I am sorry for that but simply can´t help it.

Greetins Ina

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

On the German forum all breeders including Michael attack any person who breeds TWH outside VDH

On German forum, so you forghet that mostly all non-german people here don't know those rules, so it does not matter for us then we don't know it and then have nothing wrong in dont skip the heat in a breed wich commonlly have one heat per year if have it, so, commonly "hole breed's rules" dont fit for "different breeds" like CzW.

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

In the German forum you can read his very negative opinions about the health of dogs coming from Crying wolf kennel, about the mass production of puppies by Passo of Lupo or Christian's choice.

Again, in the German forum, German forum have its own moderation team made of different moderators, as I don't know German I can't judge what they said there.
Maybe would be interessing you know that breeding dogs is much more than folowing hole-breeds club rules.

You recognized my expressions as attack but it is only showing my disappointment because whom I consider for a long time as serious breeder is not a little bit better person than breeders he criticizes.

I don't misunderstood you when you comes here as new member and of the 6 posts you do the 6 are about zlata palz kennel and those rules, some more inocent some less, don't try play wise.

I could write that for me it is pure abuse of the female but it is not about my private opinion

Sure, 1 month less make all difference.

If there would be no litter this time they will not loose anything. Because there was one litter born last year (01.200 and it was sure when they would not cover the female now the next litter would be born in 2009. It means no "lost" heats but also keeping to the RULES. Is it so hard?

No, they would lost one year, again, wolfdogs commonly have only one heat per year, that mean, skip this and next litter only in 2010.
Maybe would be better you know our breed before judge if this litter was wrong or right.

Also I will not call a responsible breeder person who ask for such behaviour permission (don't forget in Germany something is not officialy allowed and you must ask for special permission).

I don't know Germany rules, but maybe they have more idea that have some breeds wich don't follow the same rules as the others when we talk about heat, for what you talk here about VDH and they will to protect the females from the abuse, they would never allow this mate if it was wrong.

Of course I can be wrong and the breeder asked a special permission and the litter will be counted for the year 2009. In this case - if I get guarantee that Falin will have no other litter in 2009 I will officially apologize here.

You ask kindly it personally for then would be better than make a nick to spread rumors on english forum.

First as far I know according the netiquette all personal attacks are forbidden and I hope the moderator will also suffer consequences in this case.

As netiquette don't consider newbies anonimous with strong or polemical position as users, but the so called trolls.
As you know DVH rules and German lenguage I wonder why have you as good user made 6 posts on english forum all about the kennel Zlata Palz and the VDH rules.
So far I know about some little problems with trolls and clones on German forum, as a little bit about the fights that happen there so I can took more strong position as moderator for put out a suposed troll before it cause more problems.
Sure, moderator can also suffer the consequences, so far i'm only threating you as the anonimous you are but if you want put me in aprocess be happy, I only wish you good luck and very long live.. unhappy, our justice is pretty slow.

Soon I will be banned only because I asked wrong questions to the wrong person. Nice way of dealing with any opponents. KGB can learn of it.

No, soon you will be banned because you as anonimous make 6 posts like good boy but all in direction to one user, in netiquette a so called wise attack that includes in the characteristic of a very special kind of troll that can be respected and consider as user if get out of the anonimate.

With those points I gave you 3 days for fulfill your datas, if you don't so I would confirme you're a troll, and ban before things get hot here.

Opponent? Maybe I live pretty far for have really opponents on Germany

[massimo]

Neufi Friend.
WHAT IS YOUR NAME????
do you own wolfdogs?
do you own dogs at all??
I'm just curious
massimo

[massimo]

My first reaction in reading a series of ignorant sentences was to reply in a hard and bad way.
Then I thought about it and I understood how poor knowledge you have of anything you are writing about and how poor respect of what you ignore you have and what a high opinion you have about yourself and your opinions...
Response? poor Mr or Mrs Neufi-friend...entering the "world" of wolfdogs not knowing anthing about it and trying to give moral judgements about it.
Some simple and silly examples:

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

You are wrong while You write it is not YOUR problem since English forum is a place when breeders from all countries meet and the forum where users are dealing with all kind of problems, it is also the right place for my question. It is not about problem in my country but a problem of breeders who do not keep to the kennel club regulations in their countries. And if the regulation ask you to skip the heat you have to do this.

If something is forbidden in germany and not in Italy, and I personally don't think it is a big issue (2 puppies withing 12 months or 2 puppies within 11 months) I simply think German law is too "tight" and doesn't take in account each breed.

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

And Your try to absolve abusing of the females is for me incomprehensible.

Abusing of females is making her have puppies after 11 months and not 12? are you serious? are you crazy? do you want examples of abuse on dogs??

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

From the other side what I took the look on the dogs you own and listed I must admit that you have a very weird kind of choosing the breeders. I'm not familiar with TWH but I know your kennel names since all are pretty "famous" on this forum. And even if only 50 percent of the facts written by Michael about the mass production of puppies by Passo del Lupo and health and character problems in this kennel or the story about Crying wolf written by Christian after he took Myla: about very poor conditions and puppies growing up in rabbit cages in this kennel I would say openly I will never made the choice like you while choosing the puppies.

This one is really nice:
You quote one person, my friend Christian, and take him as a reference when he speaks bad about Crying wolf and then you take Michael's words about mass production/health/character about Passo del lupo kennel and then speak bad a bout Zlata Palz!!!
that is really weird.
1) do you know Michael?
2) do you know Christian?
3) have you visited Crying wolf kennel?
4) have you visited Passo del lupo Kennel?
5) has Micheal visited Passo del lupo Kennel?
All 5 points I can reply YES... and very well....
I doubt it...
Passo del lupo Characters:
Oliver Passo del lupo: my dog... do you have any idea of his character?
Ask around... 99.9% of wolfdogs are much more shy than he is...
Of course... I don't like their mass production, but no other dog you know is better fed or in better hygenic conditions.

Zlata Palz abuse their females:
well... I tell you what I saw: 4 females living inside the house freely as if they were the owners of the house.
Puppy litter growing up near the bed of the breeders
One of the females slept on the bed with me (not sure if that is abuse on dog or on me!)
One male... one of the best characters of CSW dogs around... and it's not just thanks the dog's bloodline.

Crying Wolf:
Edit Molnar is a friend, a good friend since many years.
Many times I don't agree with her breeding plans.
I know she loves her dogs
I've been many times in her kennel.
Rabbit cages??
I've been many times in her kennel.
I saw Myla when she was less than 2 months old (before Christian...)
NO RABBIT CAGES.
One woman, 4 fences, various dogs turnover to be free in the fences several times per day. 90% of Edit's time is dedicated to her dogs.
I am sure you would have problems only with 1 wolfdog...
Of course... people like me, Sonja Bognarova, Hana Kaufmanova who trusted Edit leaving their dogs in her kennel must be very stupid.
Or maybe not?

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

I do not care about any stories about quality, or missing quality, of the dogs coming from both kennels but purely about the conditions. While buying puppies you pay money which force the breeders to produce more and more dogs who are being abused in this way. And indirectly the puppy buyers like you are also responsible for the poor life the poor dogs lead there.

you are right... I am a bad puppy buyer... maybe also bad owner... maybe also bad person...
At least people know how and what I am.... AND YOU?

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

Since last few days I will also not recommend Zlata Palz but as far I can see it fits to your preferences. I can understand you will protect it because if you would not agree with the kind of treating animals in the three listed kennels you would also not buy a puppy from them.

Aristoteles wouldn't have been able to create a better sentance...
there is no comment to be done on this one. It replies on it's own.

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

But I hope you also understand that for many other dog owners the life of animals and conditions in which they are living and the way they are threated are more important than the pedigree, puppies and money.

Oh my god... do you know how my dogs live? do you have any idea?
I could make some examples that would make you shiver and make you wish all breeders were like the ones you speak so bad about...

anyway...all wasted words... to an anonymous being.
Massimo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by massimo

One of the females slept on the bed with me (not sure if that is abuse on dog or on me!)

Massimo

It was abuse of the bed, Baschka is not allowed on it (but takes every opportunity.

Greetings Ina (and Baschka)

[massimo]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

It was abuse of the bed, Baschka is not allowed on it (but takes every opportunity.

Greetings Ina (and Baschka)

You're getting old Ina....memory is leaving you.. it was not Baschka but the "different" one... Amie!

Funny... when I slept at Christian's place Myla slept on my bed!

oh the girls cannot resist me!

massimo

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Well i didn´t join in the bed so I don´t know exactly.

Only the four legged ones?

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by Neufi-friend

Oh, I was naive.

That´s the gist of the matter: you are naive.

[Hanka]

hello Ina,
thanks for your answer (once again)

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

If mating a female within a year difference is forbidden in Germany but not in Italy, France, Czech, Slovakia, Hungary, Poland, then it is a German problem, NOT OURS.

No, the Polish regulations are similar do the German. But I must affirm the execution is much stricter than in Germany. You can register ONLY one litter per year (it means one in 2007, one in 2008, one in 2009). If you know that the puppies will be born in the same year you CAN NOT cover the female. And you will never get any leniency.
If it happens that the puppies are born earlier - for example the planned date of birth was 02.01.2009 but the puppies were delivered already on 28.12.2008 they check the papers if it was not "planned" and if not they will register is but the litter will be 'counted' as it would be born in 2009. So in 2009 you can not have ANY puppies.

I know in many countries there are also huge problems with registered stud dogs which have "black" litters (mixes or puppies without pedigree) - where breeders get money for mating their dogs with mutts or dogs without breeding rights. The same is with breeders who have puppies with and without pedigrees....
In Poland we have no problem with it... Nobody will do something like this because if there will be a proof that your dog has intended litter without papers the breeder will be tried by the court at the Kennel Club and it is almost sure the breeder will be suspended.
We also can not cover ANY female if our dog is not recognized stud dog. And it doesn't matter that for example in Hungary the breeder can use such dog. Polish owner can not cover the Hungarian female (because in such case he breeder will be suspended).

But there is more - the Mutara gate will be NEVER possible in Poland.
First because I do not know even one case where the Kennel Club regulations were broken so many times as in this case.
Second - if something like this would happen here the people who were responsible for it will surfer SERIOUS consequences. Look the Czech case - the woman from the office who registered the fake litter is still there. The people who signed the papers feel really good. The breeder who made the litter is still registered CMKU breeder. Sorry but in the similar case in Poland there will be already some breeders who will be suspended for MANY years and their dogs removed from the pedigree book ( it means at the same time that the dogs can not be registered in ANY FCI country).
In Poland there would not be the case of Passo del Lupo who took the dogs banned by the Czech Club and registered them in Italy. One because the breeder would be AFFRAID of the consequences. Second because it would be not able to breed with a dog who was banned by an other FCI club. (Third - because in Poland you can breed ONLY with PUREBREED dogs with FULL pedigrees).

No, Poland is wrong example... If all countries will have the same regulation I promisse you there will be no mixes between CzW, there will be very few "black" litters and litters with fake parents...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Though I agree with you on most of it I can´t see the difference for the female when I look a Jolly´s litters: 21.11.05, 19.7.06, 3.3.07, 11.1.08. They are in different years but with less than 11 month in between.

Ina

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Though I agree with you on most of it I can´t see the difference for the female when I look a Jolly´s litters: 21.11.05, 19.7.06, 3.3.07, 11.1.08. They are in different years but with less than 11 month in between.

Yes, it is her "cycle". The next heat was also in 2008 but it was already not allowed to cover her (because the puppies would be born in the end of 2008 ). Even if it means that in 2009 there will be NO possibility to cover her and the next litter will be in 2010 (it is just an example - she will not have any puppies in 2010)...
Anyway - if the female is changing the interval between the heats and it is smaller than 12 months there will be time when you HAVE to skip a heat without covering the female...

With Jolly it was working really nice but by Merry Bell and Ali we already have years with no possibility to cover them because of the regulations... Without any chance to get a special leniency (because the litter were not over numerous and because the females are in great condition). It is simple like this here....