'Wolfdogs' of unknown origin - CzW or not?

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Fabio Caselli false the dates for registration and put the puppies into register. Other thing is, that Mutaras were stopped in CZ, because it was registered same way as by Fabio - false the dates. Dont discuss about character, exterior etc., basic is, that somebody registered dogs illegaly. Its the main problem, which must be solved.
Today situation is, how I wrote above. Because Fabio done such thing, nobody will have in future 100% guarentee, if buy from him or from breeders, who breeding on PDL wolfdogs. From today every puppies, which will have PDL (born after 2006) in pedigree, can be hybrid and not CsW. Its a fact.

But why everybody is against Fabio only? I see here on wolfdog puppies of breeders also breeding mixes. And nobody is writing about them it is wrong. Why you do it?
Here is one dog http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7424
I know no pedigree. Who told it is a czech wolfdog?


I think if you want f be fair you must make same staps against all breeders with dogs with no pedigrees and not only Fabio. Because so it is not right.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by lupis

But why everybody is against Fabio only? I see here on wolfdog puppies of breeders also breeding mixes. And nobody is writing about them it is wrong. Why you do it?
Here is one dog http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7424
I know no pedigree. Who told it is a czech wolfdog?


I think if you want f be fair you must make same staps against all breeders with dogs with no pedigrees and not only Fabio. Because so it is not right.

You guys not like hard questions, right? So long and no answer for my question. You write bad words on Fabio but when Crying wolf is breeding mixes it is ok for you. Mollyni?re de Lo'Scale has litter of mixes but for you it is ok. My friends told me many dogs with no pedigree and mixes are in germany. they go to shows and have titles of the slovakian judges. and nobody writes critic. all you can do is fight with breeder from italy... if someone else makes it is is ok... for me is is writing bad words about other breeders and not a real interest for the breed...

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by lupis

Mollyni?re de Lo'Scale has litter of mixes but for you it is ok. My friends told me many dogs with no pedigree and mixes are in germany.

Bonsoir,

Je constates que mon affixe est cité dans une conversation qui laisse à penser que je fais des mélanges de races .....
M. Lupis, vous semblez ignorer une chose toute simple :

Vorss, le chien dont vous parlez, a été Confirmé à titre initial en France, de façon tout à fait normale et transparente .....
Il a été vu par différents juges qui n'ont jamais remis en question qu'il ne rentrait pas dans le standard de la race.....
Il a passé son TAN , ses radios de dysplasie sont A/A......

Dans mon pays, le Titre initial est parfaitement légal et accepté, si l'ensemble de ces critères sont respectés
en aucun cas, je n'ai à rougir de celà !!!!.....

A la suite de sa confirmation, j'ai fait une portée avec lui, afin de voir ce qu'il traçait......Par sécurité, tous les chiots ont été placés à proximité de chez moi, afin que je puisse surveiller leur évolution ....
Ce sont des chiens (qui devenus adultes) qui ne reproduisent pas .....cetains ont même été stérilisés volontairement dans ce sens....

Pour ma part, je n'ai jamais triché sur les mariages, ni jamais remplacé les géniteurs d'une portée au grè de ma fantaisie, ou fais des mélanges avec d'autres races
Depuis 2006, je fais même des tests ADN de mon cheptel.....

Donc, avant de prétendre, publiquement qui plus est, () que je fais des mélanges, essayez de vous renseigner et prenez le temps d'aller à la source, c'est à dire, vers moi et de me poser la question directement ......

Salutations

La Mollynière de Lo'Scale

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Bonsoir,


La Mollynière de Lo'Scale

sorry but this is ENGLISH forum and please wright english - not french people will this read.

or maybe i mas lithuanian wrigth all

[massimo]

I will try to translate from french to english... it's hard for me so forgivme me for any "grammar" mistakes.... consider the effort and understand the meaning!!

I see that my kennel name is being used during a conversation which makes people think that I amd mixing breeds...
Mr. Lupis, you seem to ignore a simple thing:
Vorss, the dog you mention, has been confirmed as "titre initial" (to be translated as out of registry pedigree or something like that, in Italy it's LIR instead of LOI), in a very normal and transparent way...
He has been seen by various judges who have never put in discussion that he does not belong to breed standard...
He passed his TAN (don't know what it is...) his HD results are A/A
In my country, the "titre initial" is perfectly legal and accepted, if the totality of these requirements are respected.
In any case I should not be ashamed for this!!

Following his confirmation, I made a litter with him, to see what he passes on to his offspring.
To be sure, all his puppies have been placed to owners who live near my home, so I can follow their evolution...
They are dogs (when they will be old) who will never reproduce....some of them have been sterilised because of this intention...

From my side, I have never played tricks on coupling, neither have I ever changed parents of a litter according to my fantasy, or have I never mixed different races.
After 2006, I even make DNA tests on my animals...

Ce sont des chiens (qui devenus adultes) qui ne reproduisent pas .....cetains ont même été stérilisés volontairement dans ce sens....

So, before stating that I make mixes, what is worst it done pubblically, please try to take your time and ask directly to the source, that is to say ask me directly.


La Mollynière de Lo'Scale

[wolfin]

massimo, thanks

[massimo]

I have a small question to make to "La Mollynière de Lo'Scale" breeder.

As you are confident with what you state... would you be available to make a DNA test on VORSS and see if he is a wolf Hybrid?

I believe any Wolf/CSW mix would pass "initial stage" and even bonitation or win dog shows. It would not be enough for me.
Today it is not allowed to introduce new wolf blood into the breed without permission of the owners of the standard (slovak club), this is a fact whether you like it or not.

Do you really know who is father of VORSS?? is there any chance that he could be a real wolf? or another breed, not CSW?
Massimo

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by lupis

My friends told me many dogs with no pedigree and mixes are in germany.

facts please, not only rumours!!

[martiou07]

hello, as regards Vorss, indeed it is of initial title, but between us I doubt that this dog is a direct hybrid ..... but that is normal that people put the question, but the question arises for other dogs then, the lines Crying Wolf, some between them like to me much, very lupoide,but ........, a dog in Italy also Dark (http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/1534) in any event we will never know, therefore useless to launch rumours…. each one is free to have its opinion of sound with dimensions .....
Martial

[woland77]

Lupis, perchè non ti firmi come tutte le persone civili che scrivono in questo forum?

[Angelika]

Originally Posted by woland

Lupis, perchè non ti firmi come tutte le persone civili che scrivono in questo forum?

looooooool

Lorry, ne t´inquiètes pas - lupis est peut-être un troll
amitiés
Angelika

(Lorry, don´t worry - maybe lupis is a troll )

[doublewolf]

Please Massimo, help me to translate , my english is'n perfect et now a'm a short of time.
Conosco Vorss molto bene per averlo visto di persona e conosco anche la sua storia . Dissipiamo subito i dubbi: non è un ibrido di lupo. E' la solita storia delle foto su WD. La foto é vecchia e puo' trarre in inganno.
E' un bellissimo esemplare di cane lupo cecoslovacco.
Esatto la confirmazione francese é come il LIR italiano.
Il TAN (test d'aptitude naturelle) é una prova a cui sono sttoposti tutti i CLC proprio per constatare la corrispondenza allo standard e non nell'aspetto fisico ma nel CARATTERE. Si tratta di una serie di test a cui corrisponde un relativo punteggio. Si tratta di una prova molto interessante a cui proprio l'anno scorso sono state apportate delle sostanziali modifiche dal nuovo direttivo del club francese.
Circa il DNA,lo si fa ai cuccioli e ai loro genitori per verificare il grado di parentela.Personalmente trovo che sia la miglior garanzia per chi acquista un cucciolo.
Non sono tecnica , ma penso sia un poì'difficile fare questo con Vorss.
Perdonatemi una considerazione. Leggendo WD é facile capire come poche insinuazioni possano nuocere al buon nome dei vari allevatori e diffamare il loro lavoro.Personalmente ne conosco molti in tutta Europa e non solo in Italia e posso sinceramente dire che se tutti lavorassero con la serietà della signora Lorry Leclerc molte delle situazioni che abbiamo oggi sotto gli occhi non sarebbero esistite.
Grazie per l'aiuto a chi vorrà tradurre.

Silvana

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by doublewolf

Conosco Vorss molto bene per averlo visto di persona e conosco anche la sua storia .

Hello, Silvana! And, which is his story ?
He seems a beautyful csw, could be nice to have more info about him and his parents.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by wolfin

sorry but this is ENGLISH forum and please wright english - not french people will this read.

or maybe i mas lithuanian wrigth all

Tout d’abord, je tiens à préciser que si je poste en français, sur le Forum anglais, c’est simplement parce que je ne maîtrise pas suffisamment cette langue à l’écrit et que le sujet est trop important POUR MOI pour que j’écrive avec précision et non approximativement .

Pour ma part, si j‘avais besoin de vous parler personnellement pour critiquer ce que vous faites, je ferai l‘effort de parler dans votre langue, soyez en sûre !!!!....

Dans le cas présent, je sais pertinemment qu’il se trouvera bien une personne sur le Forum anglais apte à traduire mes explications de façon correctes et réalistes ! .......du moins je l’espère !

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by massimo

I have a small question to make to "La Mollynière de Lo'Scale" breeder.

As you are confident with what you state... would you be available to make a DNA test on VORSS and see if he is a wolf Hybrid?

En ce qui concerne Vorss, je ne vois pas d’inconvénient à donner un avis favorable à votre demande et faire procéder à un test ADN, mais sachez d’ores et déjà que les résultats seront incomplets car il n’y aura que SA carte génétique personnelle avec ses propres marqueurs......


Sachez que j’ai pris le temps ce matin de contacter les laboratoires Antagène de Limonest (69) pour leur expliquer la situation :
Ils m’ont confirmé ce que je pensais, à savoir que :
Les marqueurs d’identifications génétiques sont spécifiquement aux chiens (ce sont des marqueurs canins) et axé sur la vérification de la lignée parentale qui confirme à 99% que les parents sont bien les bons ..... (encore faut il connaître les parents !.....)
Ce ne sont pas des marqueurs de race : ils ne permettront pas de déterminer si les parents de Vorss sont des loups à 100 % ou des hybrides.......


Comme je suis une personne obstinée, je vais prendre contact avec le Service de Recherche et Développement, pour demander si l’on peut obtenir d’autres informations complémentaires par un biais différent.....

Je m’engage publiquement à vous faire connaître leur réponse.....




Salutations
M.L.S.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

Vorss, le chien dont vous parlez, a été Confirmé à titre initial en France, de façon tout à fait normale et transparente .....
Il a été vu par différents juges qui n'ont jamais remis en question qu'il ne rentrait pas dans le standard de la race.....
Il a passé son TAN , ses radios de dysplasie sont A/A......

But is Voors wolfdog? In Italia Fabio registered LIR real wolf mixes and was no problem. It must be not czech wolfdog to register with LIR. You can register all dogs look similar like czech Wolfdog. Why you breed Vorrs - can you show it is REAL czech wolf? Is is ok to breed not pedigree dogs?

[lupis]

Originally Posted by Angelika

facts please, not only rumours!!

Here http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/7817 is one dog i hear it is LIR dog (I do not know why parents are in database but i hear Amber is with no pedigree). I can ask but i do not remeber names. I can ask.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Amber is a pure bred wolfdog out of FCI-parents that is offspring of an accidential mating. This can be proofed with DNA-tests what was offered to the VDH.
Before you get excited about people and dogs you don´t know you should start to inform yourself by getting to know people and dogs yourself and not repeating things you just heard.

Ina

[wolfin]

i think in this english NOT frenc forum troll is this people who wright frenc and this due special.

massimo help

[massimo]

Originally Posted by doublewolf

Please Massimo, help me to translate , my english is'n perfect et now a'm a short of time.
Conosco Vorss molto bene per averlo visto di persona e conosco anche la sua storia . Dissipiamo subito i dubbi: non è un ibrido di lupo. E' la solita storia delle foto su WD. La foto é vecchia e puo' trarre in inganno.
E' un bellissimo esemplare di cane lupo cecoslovacco.
Esatto la confirmazione francese é come il LIR italiano.
Il TAN (test d'aptitude naturelle) é una prova a cui sono sttoposti tutti i CLC proprio per constatare la corrispondenza allo standard e non nell'aspetto fisico ma nel CARATTERE. Si tratta di una serie di test a cui corrisponde un relativo punteggio. Si tratta di una prova molto interessante a cui proprio l'anno scorso sono state apportate delle sostanziali modifiche dal nuovo direttivo del club francese.
Circa il DNA,lo si fa ai cuccioli e ai loro genitori per verificare il grado di parentela.Personalmente trovo che sia la miglior garanzia per chi acquista un cucciolo.
Non sono tecnica , ma penso sia un poì'difficile fare questo con Vorss.
Perdonatemi una considerazione. Leggendo WD é facile capire come poche insinuazioni possano nuocere al buon nome dei vari allevatori e diffamare il loro lavoro.Personalmente ne conosco molti in tutta Europa e non solo in Italia e posso sinceramente dire che se tutti lavorassero con la serietà della signora Lorry Leclerc molte delle situazioni che abbiamo oggi sotto gli occhi non sarebbero esistite.
Grazie per l'aiuto a chi vorrà tradurre.

Silvana

Ok, i will not translate word by word..., just generally:
Silvana wrote in Italian:
She knows the story about Vorss and he is not a wolf hybrid. Problem is the photo on wd may make him seem such.
Tan is a character test, not morphological.
DNA test may not help in case of VORSS as the parents are unknown.
By reading on wolfdog it is easy to understand how small doubts and "no facts" can compromise the good name of some breeders.
Silvana says she knows many breeders in Europe and she believes that she would be glad if most of them worked as Mrs Lorry Leclerc seriously.