Important: What to tell the vet...

Star II · 07-03-2006, 02:11

I need to make an important decision really soon, and I desperately need input. Our vet called today, and wanted to talk about Polo (our ~5 mo old CzW who was shipped to the US). We told her the breed of the dog, she did some research and found that in the US (or at least in Washington State) Polo would still technically be considered a wolf hybrid, and that she would continue to see him but we would need to sign paperwork saying that he was a wolf hybrid.

She also told us that there was one big danger in this. She said that the rabbies vaccination hasn't been 100% proven to work on wolves or wolf descendants (even though it is likely to work), so according to legislation if Polo ever bit someone he would have to be put down so they could examine his brain for presence of rabbies.

Obviously I freaked out when I heard this. The way I see it I have 2 choices. The first is to sign the waiver and continue to see my current vet (who is very good) and assume that this will never be an issue. I am already working very closely with Polo and he's a great dog, so I don't necessarily anticipate that there will ever be any problems. The second option is to go to another vet and claim that Polo is a "shepered mix", and not reveal his heritage.

I really don't know what the best course of action is. I don't want to be caught in a situation years down the line where Polo bites someone or another dog appropriately in self defense and suddenly has to be put down because of this law, that would obviously break my heart.

What should I do? Does anyone have suggestions &/or past experience with a similar situation? Thanks.

Nebulosa · 07-03-2006, 02:30

1° Look this link.
2° copy this link and show for you veterinarie ( for give information about this for she)
3° CzW is one dog breed by FCI, you can take the standard of the breed and show for your veterinary.

In doubts, you can make one Bloodtest for see if the rabies vaccine make efect in your dog, 30 days later than the rabies vaccination ask for your vet colect blood of your dog and make the test.

Paula H.Pandolfo

Nebulosa · 07-03-2006, 02:41

other interessant link for you see, but this is for hibrids.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 07-03-2006, 09:09

those links want help him with his vet, she isn´t the problem but the actual law in his state. That there are some states with this problem in the US has been discussed in this forum before.
I think you have two possibilities you stay with the vet and make very sure that your dog never bites anybody or you go at least for the vaccinations to another vet and get a vaccination report with shepherd or husky cross for it. Your vet could do the rest of the treatments but that would mean that you have signed somewhere, sometime that you dog is a wolfhybrid. Maybe you could write in this paper that your dog is a registered FCI breed and from the kynological point of view no hybrid.

Ina

Mirkawolf · 07-03-2006, 12:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by TysonT

I need to make an important decision really soon, and I desperately need input. Our vet called today, and wanted to talk about Polo (our ~5 mo old CzW who was shipped to the US). We told her the breed of the dog, she did some research and found that in the US (or at least in Washington State) Polo would still technically be considered a wolf hybrid, and that she would continue to see him but we would need to sign paperwork saying that he was a wolf hybrid.

What kind of research did she do? Did she visit this site, read about the standard, about the history of the breed etc? Or she took from her library "Living with wolfdogs" by Nicky Wilde, the book that already helped to bann the breed in UK? Which laws in Washington State states the conditions, under which pedigree dog breed can be considered a wolf-hybrid? Ask the vet to show you exactly, then we can discuss it here further.

Do not sign any paper, that your pedigree CSV is a wolf-hybrid. Once you sign it, there is no way back. I am sending e-mail, too.

saschia · 07-03-2006, 16:15

I also think you should not sign any papers that your wolfdog is a hybrid. You bought the dog as a regular dog with pedigree, it is registered internationally (pity USA are not regular members of FCI). Your dog is as much wolf hybrid as any alaskan malamute.

Also, one can never be sure that the dog doesn't bite, from self-defense or as a small one in play. It once happened to me that a man, who's son was scratched by paws of my dog (and he was a doctor) required certificate that she does not have rabbies. People are sometimes malicious and I wouldn't like being in situation that anybody could get my dog killed by just claiming that it bit him.

I really think this thing about vaccines not being sure for wolves and their hybrids is as much bullshit as saying that some human vaccine is only 100% proof in white people, but not black, asian or mix.

Good luck!

Star II · 07-03-2006, 20:09

Thank you all for the responses. On one hand I apologize, because I didn't mean to overalarm you, but I was very concerned after this call from the vet because I absolutely love Polo and wanted to make the correct decision. To clear things up a bit, it is completely legal in Washington State to own even wolf hybrids. People in the state who do own them get them vaccinated "off label", I had never heard anything about this law before. Also, my vet is a good and caring person, and she is not trying to do anything cruel or "trap" me by having me sign some paper, she just wants to be sure and cover her own butt because, as Hanka has pointed out to me in email many times

, there some (not all!) crazy people in America, and they will do anything to create a lawsuit, etc.

Having said all that, I most certainly will not sign any paper saying that Polo is a "hybrid". In fact, with my previous animal Toby (who was nearly 100% Eastern Timberwolf) I told the vets only that he was some kind of sheperd mix just to avoid this kind of problem, and since there is no medically distinguishable factors they could never say that he is part wolf. Toby did get all vaccinations, and never had any problems.

I think the best course is to talk to my vet and tell her that I will only sign a form that Polo is an FCI recognized breed of dog, but nothing more. I think that she will want the paper to say that "the rabbies vaccination isn't proven to be effective", and I don't know exactly how to counter that. I did a lot of research last night and it sounds like even the USDA was really convinced that these vaccinations should work on even pure wolves, but only repealed to rule in order to discourage domestic ownership in the US.

I will also ask her about what kind of research she did, I know when I talked to her yesterday she mentioned that she spoke to someone who served as sort of the "head vetrinary" for the state. I'll look into this more, and post more info as I have it.

Dharkwolf · 07-03-2006, 21:37

Hey Tyson,

Looks like you are facing a legal problem, not really a scientific one.

So my first question is: Which is the law that says the CSV is a wolf-hybrid? It may be possible to contest this in any number of ways if it comes to it.

I have to agree with Ina, the links provided above will probably not help you because the CSV is not a wolf-hybrid and those documents relate to wolf-hybrids – not to mention that although the trial may have been successful the vaccine does not seem to have been FDA approved (which means it is still going through the process or was dropped for some other reason).

To solve this first you need to understand your vet – here is my take on things:

Your vet is trying to enforce a law which has been designed to protect people – Rabies is a deadly disease and naturally no vet wants to risk it spreading in their community. He or she is trying to do what is best for all by making you sign this declaration so that things are clear should there be any incident.

There are therefore two things which will be useful –

1) First, there is a need to ascertain whether or not a CSV is legally a wolf-hybrid or not. This is a very frustrating question and it will depend on the legal definition in your jurisdiction (I assume this is defined at the state level) I will be happy to look into it and discuss it with you if you want – but I do need a reference to the law in question.
2) Secondly it would be good to provide all the information possible to demonstrate that the CSV is not at risk from rabies after vaccination. To my knowledge the information which exists on this is not terribly strong but it is there. Has there ever been a case of a vaccinated CSV who caught rabies? Not to my knowledge (and I tend to ask everyone I meet about this precisely because I know this will come up sometime) however you will need something more sturdy than that. Luckily for you all cases of Rabies have to be notified to health authorities, and therefore it is possible to search records to see if there has ever been a case of a CSV infected with Rabies. I can start to do this but it will take some time. (Ina would you have some idea on how to go about this?) Even if it turns out that there has never been a rabid vaccinated CSV that is not conclusive evidence, however it is a case of quite strong empirical evidence in your favour (not to be neglected!)

There is something else which you need to consider Tyson, signing that declaration will set a precedent – certainly a small one and an unlikely one to come up again, but a precedent nonetheless, one which would be unfair not only to Polo but to all other CSVs which are to be found around the world.

Please provide us with a little more information and we’ll do what we can to help.

J.

Star II · 07-03-2006, 22:38

Thanks so much for that detailed and informative response, I agree with everything you said. I wrote an email to the vet expressing my views and asking for the legislation that is applicable (I forwarded it to Mirka if you would like to read it), I will post whatever I hear back and/or find thru research to this forum.

I'm insterested in not only doing the right thing for Polo, but also setting a proper precedent for future Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs in the state and/or the US.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 08-03-2006, 12:56

Hello Dharkwolf,

I don´t know the situation out of Germany. We have a monthly report for veterinarians about the incidence of epidemic diseases that have to be registered. Here I would just ask the local official vet what animal has been infected.

If CSW aren´t illegal in this area the problem very likely is to be a question of for what kinds of animals the vaccination company got the registration for. You normally have to ask for official permission for the vaccination for every species you want to use it for. That means that the company has to do the research that is need for registration on every species, what causes en extremly high amount of costs. That is the reason why companies normally just do it for the usual species. As long as the vaccination hasn´t got the registration it is considered to be not save. It doesn´t matter if there has been any case of rabies or not, there has to be at least some research done on this.
That means you should just try to get the officials to accept you have a normal dog. Then you can get it vaccinated like every other dog too.
The other possibility would be to find out if there exists any vaccination that has been registered for wild animals preferable wolfes. There exists a vaccination for foxes and there is as far as I know a rabies project done in Ethopia on Ethopian Wolfes (but I don´t remember if they vaccinate the wolfes too or only the shepherds´ dogs in this area).
But the fox vaccination will cause problems because it is only for wild animals and is swallowed not injected. Very likely you will have the problem that you have some kind of dog not a wolf.

Ina

Czunksolov · 11-03-2006, 13:48

This brings up the question of whether GSDs are considered to be wolf hybrids. If they are considered to be domestic dogs and you can show that they are bred down from wolf crossed with German sheep dogs then the 'head vet' of your state has the decision to make of whether a breed created from wolf crosses can be a domestic dog or whether all the police dogs (i assume they use GSDs) trained to bite suspects are not rabies vaccinated and must be killed as soon as they have been used to bite anyone. Was the vaccine tested on GSDs and approved? This would show that it works on breeds with wolf heritage. Obviously this does not defeat the argument that LEGALLY the CSV is a hybrid, though proving that GSD is no different would be a start. Could someone direct me to where i can find the earliest GSD pedigrees as it could help the UK situation if i could show that all the police's GSDs require licencing and caging as Dangerous wild animals. regards, Rob

michaelundinaeichhorn · 11-03-2006, 20:26

I would try the German Deutsche Schäferhunde Verein, schorly SV. But I don´t think they really want to do a statement for this.
Prof. Helmut Wachtel from Vienna is a Gentic specialist on dogs very likely he knows.

Ina

cpw · 12-03-2006, 00:41

[quote="Czunksolov"] Could someone direct me to where i can find the earliest GSD pedigrees
http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/gsd1.htm
This may help

Kat · 13-03-2006, 19:50

Hellon Tyson. I have an 11 month old who was shipped to me from Belgium to the US. I live in NY and in my state unless a dog has 75% wolfblood, the do not consider him a wolf. The vet that I use is excellent. We have never run into your situation. When we first brought him to the vet, we told the vet that he was a purebred czechoslovakian wolfdog and brought all of his paperwork with us. Our vet LOVES our dog and would never have us sign a release form stating he is a hybrid because THEY ARE NOT! I would suggest finding a different vet who would be willing to research into this breed to gain more knowledge. Obviously vets in the US are not familiar with this breed so they automatically assume he is a hybrid. Luckily, we found a vet that researched the breed and is now very familair with him. When we had him neutered, our vet took special precausions while under anesthesia because of the research he did. My suggestion to you is to search very deeply in finding a vet who will take the time to research and I would defintily not sign any release form.

01-06-2009, 19:13

I know this reply is 3 years late

but as a reference for anyone in the US facing similar problems, the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is a breed accepted into the AKC Foundation Stock Service, and I would think that would help a great deal in proving legally that your CsV is a DOG not a wolf hybrid. A vet's ignorance of the breed should be no excuse for a dog to be mislabled!

07-03-2006, 02:11	#1
Star II Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Gilbert, Arizona Posts: 11	Important: What to tell the vet... I need to make an important decision really soon, and I desperately need input. Our vet called today, and wanted to talk about Polo (our ~5 mo old CzW who was shipped to the US). We told her the breed of the dog, she did some research and found that in the US (or at least in Washington State) Polo would still technically be considered a wolf hybrid, and that she would continue to see him but we would need to sign paperwork saying that he was a wolf hybrid. She also told us that there was one big danger in this. She said that the rabbies vaccination hasn't been 100% proven to work on wolves or wolf descendants (even though it is likely to work), so according to legislation if Polo ever bit someone he would have to be put down so they could examine his brain for presence of rabbies. Obviously I freaked out when I heard this. The way I see it I have 2 choices. The first is to sign the waiver and continue to see my current vet (who is very good) and assume that this will never be an issue. I am already working very closely with Polo and he's a great dog, so I don't necessarily anticipate that there will ever be any problems. The second option is to go to another vet and claim that Polo is a "shepered mix", and not reveal his heritage. I really don't know what the best course of action is. I don't want to be caught in a situation years down the line where Polo bites someone or another dog appropriately in self defense and suddenly has to be put down because of this law, that would obviously break my heart. What should I do? Does anyone have suggestions &/or past experience with a similar situation? Thanks.

07-03-2006, 16:15	#6
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	I also think you should not sign any papers that your wolfdog is a hybrid. You bought the dog as a regular dog with pedigree, it is registered internationally (pity USA are not regular members of FCI). Your dog is as much wolf hybrid as any alaskan malamute. Also, one can never be sure that the dog doesn't bite, from self-defense or as a small one in play. It once happened to me that a man, who's son was scratched by paws of my dog (and he was a doctor) required certificate that she does not have rabbies. People are sometimes malicious and I wouldn't like being in situation that anybody could get my dog killed by just claiming that it bit him. I really think this thing about vaccines not being sure for wolves and their hybrids is as much bullshit as saying that some human vaccine is only 100% proof in white people, but not black, asian or mix. Good luck! __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

07-03-2006, 02:30	#2
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	1° Look this link. 2° copy this link and show for you veterinarie ( for give information about this for she) 3° CzW is one dog breed by FCI, you can take the standard of the breed and show for your veterinary. In doubts, you can make one Bloodtest for see if the rabies vaccine make efect in your dog, 30 days later than the rabies vaccination ask for your vet colect blood of your dog and make the test. Paula H.Pandolfo

07-03-2006, 02:41	#3
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	other interessant link for you see, but this is for hibrids.

07-03-2006, 09:09	#4
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	those links want help him with his vet, she isn´t the problem but the actual law in his state. That there are some states with this problem in the US has been discussed in this forum before. I think you have two possibilities you stay with the vet and make very sure that your dog never bites anybody or you go at least for the vaccinations to another vet and get a vaccination report with shepherd or husky cross for it. Your vet could do the rest of the treatments but that would mean that you have signed somewhere, sometime that you dog is a wolfhybrid. Maybe you could write in this paper that your dog is a registered FCI breed and from the kynological point of view no hybrid. Ina

07-03-2006, 20:09	#7
Star II Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Gilbert, Arizona Posts: 11	Thank you all for the responses. On one hand I apologize, because I didn't mean to overalarm you, but I was very concerned after this call from the vet because I absolutely love Polo and wanted to make the correct decision. To clear things up a bit, it is completely legal in Washington State to own even wolf hybrids. People in the state who do own them get them vaccinated "off label", I had never heard anything about this law before. Also, my vet is a good and caring person, and she is not trying to do anything cruel or "trap" me by having me sign some paper, she just wants to be sure and cover her own butt because, as Hanka has pointed out to me in email many times , there some (not all!) crazy people in America, and they will do anything to create a lawsuit, etc. Having said all that, I most certainly will not sign any paper saying that Polo is a "hybrid". In fact, with my previous animal Toby (who was nearly 100% Eastern Timberwolf) I told the vets only that he was some kind of sheperd mix just to avoid this kind of problem, and since there is no medically distinguishable factors they could never say that he is part wolf. Toby did get all vaccinations, and never had any problems. I think the best course is to talk to my vet and tell her that I will only sign a form that Polo is an FCI recognized breed of dog, but nothing more. I think that she will want the paper to say that "the rabbies vaccination isn't proven to be effective", and I don't know exactly how to counter that. I did a lot of research last night and it sounds like even the USDA was really convinced that these vaccinations should work on even pure wolves, but only repealed to rule in order to discourage domestic ownership in the US. I will also ask her about what kind of research she did, I know when I talked to her yesterday she mentioned that she spoke to someone who served as sort of the "head vetrinary" for the state. I'll look into this more, and post more info as I have it.

07-03-2006, 21:37	#8
Dharkwolf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brussels Posts: 201	Hey Tyson, Looks like you are facing a legal problem, not really a scientific one. So my first question is: Which is the law that says the CSV is a wolf-hybrid? It may be possible to contest this in any number of ways if it comes to it. I have to agree with Ina, the links provided above will probably not help you because the CSV is not a wolf-hybrid and those documents relate to wolf-hybrids – not to mention that although the trial may have been successful the vaccine does not seem to have been FDA approved (which means it is still going through the process or was dropped for some other reason). To solve this first you need to understand your vet – here is my take on things: Your vet is trying to enforce a law which has been designed to protect people – Rabies is a deadly disease and naturally no vet wants to risk it spreading in their community. He or she is trying to do what is best for all by making you sign this declaration so that things are clear should there be any incident. There are therefore two things which will be useful – 1) First, there is a need to ascertain whether or not a CSV is legally a wolf-hybrid or not. This is a very frustrating question and it will depend on the legal definition in your jurisdiction (I assume this is defined at the state level) I will be happy to look into it and discuss it with you if you want – but I do need a reference to the law in question. 2) Secondly it would be good to provide all the information possible to demonstrate that the CSV is not at risk from rabies after vaccination. To my knowledge the information which exists on this is not terribly strong but it is there. Has there ever been a case of a vaccinated CSV who caught rabies? Not to my knowledge (and I tend to ask everyone I meet about this precisely because I know this will come up sometime) however you will need something more sturdy than that. Luckily for you all cases of Rabies have to be notified to health authorities, and therefore it is possible to search records to see if there has ever been a case of a CSV infected with Rabies. I can start to do this but it will take some time. (Ina would you have some idea on how to go about this?) Even if it turns out that there has never been a rabid vaccinated CSV that is not conclusive evidence, however it is a case of quite strong empirical evidence in your favour (not to be neglected!) There is something else which you need to consider Tyson, signing that declaration will set a precedent – certainly a small one and an unlikely one to come up again, but a precedent nonetheless, one which would be unfair not only to Polo but to all other CSVs which are to be found around the world. Please provide us with a little more information and we’ll do what we can to help. J.

07-03-2006, 22:38	#9
Star II Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Gilbert, Arizona Posts: 11	Thanks so much for that detailed and informative response, I agree with everything you said. I wrote an email to the vet expressing my views and asking for the legislation that is applicable (I forwarded it to Mirka if you would like to read it), I will post whatever I hear back and/or find thru research to this forum. I'm insterested in not only doing the right thing for Polo, but also setting a proper precedent for future Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs in the state and/or the US.

08-03-2006, 12:56	#10
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Hello Dharkwolf, I don´t know the situation out of Germany. We have a monthly report for veterinarians about the incidence of epidemic diseases that have to be registered. Here I would just ask the local official vet what animal has been infected. If CSW aren´t illegal in this area the problem very likely is to be a question of for what kinds of animals the vaccination company got the registration for. You normally have to ask for official permission for the vaccination for every species you want to use it for. That means that the company has to do the research that is need for registration on every species, what causes en extremly high amount of costs. That is the reason why companies normally just do it for the usual species. As long as the vaccination hasn´t got the registration it is considered to be not save. It doesn´t matter if there has been any case of rabies or not, there has to be at least some research done on this. That means you should just try to get the officials to accept you have a normal dog. Then you can get it vaccinated like every other dog too. The other possibility would be to find out if there exists any vaccination that has been registered for wild animals preferable wolfes. There exists a vaccination for foxes and there is as far as I know a rabies project done in Ethopia on Ethopian Wolfes (but I don´t remember if they vaccinate the wolfes too or only the shepherds´ dogs in this area). But the fox vaccination will cause problems because it is only for wild animals and is swallowed not injected. Very likely you will have the problem that you have some kind of dog not a wolf. Ina

11-03-2006, 13:48	#11
Czunksolov Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Prestatyn, Wales Posts: 21	This brings up the question of whether GSDs are considered to be wolf hybrids. If they are considered to be domestic dogs and you can show that they are bred down from wolf crossed with German sheep dogs then the 'head vet' of your state has the decision to make of whether a breed created from wolf crosses can be a domestic dog or whether all the police dogs (i assume they use GSDs) trained to bite suspects are not rabies vaccinated and must be killed as soon as they have been used to bite anyone. Was the vaccine tested on GSDs and approved? This would show that it works on breeds with wolf heritage. Obviously this does not defeat the argument that LEGALLY the CSV is a hybrid, though proving that GSD is no different would be a start. Could someone direct me to where i can find the earliest GSD pedigrees as it could help the UK situation if i could show that all the police's GSDs require licencing and caging as Dangerous wild animals. regards, Rob

11-03-2006, 20:26	#12
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I would try the German Deutsche Schäferhunde Verein, schorly SV. But I don´t think they really want to do a statement for this. Prof. Helmut Wachtel from Vienna is a Gentic specialist on dogs very likely he knows. Ina

12-03-2006, 00:41	#13
cpw Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 16	[quote="Czunksolov"] Could someone direct me to where i can find the earliest GSD pedigrees http://www.idir.net/~wolf2dog/gsd1.htm This may help

13-03-2006, 19:50	#14
Kat Junior Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 29	Hellon Tyson. I have an 11 month old who was shipped to me from Belgium to the US. I live in NY and in my state unless a dog has 75% wolfblood, the do not consider him a wolf. The vet that I use is excellent. We have never run into your situation. When we first brought him to the vet, we told the vet that he was a purebred czechoslovakian wolfdog and brought all of his paperwork with us. Our vet LOVES our dog and would never have us sign a release form stating he is a hybrid because THEY ARE NOT! I would suggest finding a different vet who would be willing to research into this breed to gain more knowledge. Obviously vets in the US are not familiar with this breed so they automatically assume he is a hybrid. Luckily, we found a vet that researched the breed and is now very familair with him. When we had him neutered, our vet took special precausions while under anesthesia because of the research he did. My suggestion to you is to search very deeply in finding a vet who will take the time to research and I would defintily not sign any release form.

01-06-2009, 19:13	#15
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	I know this reply is 3 years late but as a reference for anyone in the US facing similar problems, the Czechoslovakian Wolfdog is a breed accepted into the AKC Foundation Stock Service, and I would think that would help a great deal in proving legally that your CsV is a DOG not a wolf hybrid. A vet's ignorance of the breed should be no excuse for a dog to be mislabled!