Italian bonitations - Page 4

Jimma · 05-08-2009, 01:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Hmmmm

Skk decided Saarloos and CsV must do this (test) before breeding, as they are WOLF dogs and not just dogs... it has nothing to do whit if they are workingdogs or not on this breeds...

CsV and Saarloos is under Swedish kennel club and not Swedish Working dog club, yes I know... but last I did her it is still a requirement for both Saarloos and CsV to do this (test)... has anything change ??? As the Working dog club did say NO we do not wont CsV as a Working breed in Sweden yet ( or ever)

I do not understand all you did wrote, but I know one do not have to pass whit a good result to be permitted to breed, you just have to show up and do your best on this (test) and get a result, good or bad...

OK, it is not called (Mental Health test) in English, it is called Mentally dog, but to me it still luck like a test of mentality

and you get a result that your puppy buyers might wont to se, or am I wrong ???

I do hope it is still a demand for breeding of CsV, but yes I understand if they will take it away as a demand on Saarloos, but the first litter of Saaroos born this year in Sweden parents had to do it, to get there pedigrees from Skk.
Please correct me if I’m wrong or has misunderstand anything

Yes we do not have a specific MH (test) for CsV yet, I think we must do the GSD (test)

?

Very best regards / Mikael

Hi Mikael!

I understand if it is not that easy to understand but it is very important that you DO understand the diffrencies espacially since you think about being a breeder. Don not tell everybody the MH is a TEST because it is not. There are no special GSD test in the MH. The description situation is the same for every breed its how the spider looks like that counts and that is different from every breed. CsV should not have the same spider as GSD because then you can aswell buy a GSD. The MH dont VALUATE the dogs reaction..No reaction is better then another depending on how the breeds spider looks like. The describer is no judge...He or she only fill in the formula HOW the dog reacts. MH is no meritation its only to see how the dog fits in the spider of the breed more like breedingevaluation. Is the breed going in the right direction or not? SKK wants the MH for our breed to sort out weak individuals from breeding wich they can IF our dogs dont manage the shooting after being stressed out of the description situations. Because its a breed with not that good reputation in Sweden. The same goes for the saarloos for wich we also have to work out such spider, fitting that breed. So please Mikael DONT mix this things up for people.

Mikael · 05-08-2009, 16:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimma

Hi Mikael!

I understand if it is not that easy to understand but it is very important that you DO understand the diffrencies espacially since you think about being a breeder. Don not tell everybody the MH is a TEST because it is not. There are no special GSD test in the MH. The description situation is the same for every breed its how the spider looks like that counts and that is different from every breed. CsV should not have the same spider as GSD because then you can aswell buy a GSD. The MH dont VALUATE the dogs reaction..No reaction is better then another depending on how the breeds spider looks like. The describer is no judge...He or she only fill in the formula HOW the dog reacts. MH is no meritation its only to see how the dog fits in the spider of the breed more like breedingevaluation. Is the breed going in the right direction or not? SKK wants the MH for our breed to sort out weak individuals from breeding wich they can IF our dogs dont manage the shooting after being stressed out of the description situations. Because its a breed with not that good reputation in Sweden. The same goes for the saarloos for wich we also have to work out such spider, fitting that breed. So please Mikael DONT mix this things up for people.

I´m not trying to mix anything up

but clearly people se it as a test, as they put up there own video as "MH TEST", and not as just MH

did I put up the wrong video ? if not, I can only se the word TEST as wrong, sorry for that, it is Mental-beskrivning in Swedish and translated to English it is Mental-description if I´m not wrong...

I did know Mental Health Test was not the exact word, that is way I did put it in paranthes

My point was to show that the testing in the Bonitation of the mentality was not realy a big test, and say very little about the dogs mentality.

So even if we only call it MH... I think the reasen is still the same as on a Bonitation test, to try to breed better dogs and the right ones whit each other.

I se no point at all to argue if is is called a test or description

Best regards / Mikael

Jimma · 05-08-2009, 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

My point was to show that the testing in the Bonitation of the mentality was not realy a big test, and say very little about the dogs mentality.

Upon that!! I can only agree!

// Jimma

Juniorwolf · 08-09-2009, 00:15

I almost forgot

...I got answer from both Czech and Slovak club and apparently both countries only accept bonitations for their own breeding dogs which are made in their own country(Czech club only accept Czech bonitations for Czech breeding dogs and Slovak club only accept Slovak bonitations for Slovak breeding dogs, they don`t even accept eachothers), but Both clubs do officially ACCEPT any breeding dog, who have permission to breed in the country where it lives, so the conclution must be that it is ONLY wolfdog.org who do not accept Italian bonitations

This should be the end of this discussion together with the video-clip that Massimo posted earlier, which CLEARLY shows that there is a difference in Czech and Slovak character test and the difference is absolutly the same as in the Italian character test.

I just think it is funny, that non of the before so eager debaters, who was speaking against the Italian bonitations, have any comments to the FACT that wolfdog.org apparently is working against both the Czech and the Slovak clubs, by not accepting the Italian bonitations ...the same tendency can be seen in the thread about the stud dog list, where it is ONLY wolfdog.org who claim that dogs with ED is not to be used in the breeding and non of the clubs of origin have any restrictions about this or even require ED results.

I wait for a correction of the faults made by wolfdog.org about bonitation as well as about ED. ...or at least a reasonable explanation why wolfdog.org do not accept the guidelines of the clubs of origin.

Greetings Rolf

admin · 08-09-2009, 08:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by rolf

...I got answer from both Czech and Slovak club and apparently both countries only accept bonitations for their own breeding dogs which are made in their own country(Czech club only accept Czech bonitations for Czech breeding dogs and Slovak club only accept Slovak bonitations for Slovak breeding dogs, they don`t even accept eachothers), but Both clubs do officially ACCEPT any breeding dog, who have permission to breed in the country where it lives, so the conclution must be that it is ONLY wolfdog.org who do not accept Italian bonitations

Now I fully understand why Margo gave up the Wolfdog.org administration...

For sure she had enough to explain again and again the most OBVIOUS things to people who do not WANT to understand it....

The "hidden true" which you just "discovered" is nothing else than the most BASIC FCI rule which says about reciprocal recognition of breeding rights...

Simply said ALL clubs (not only Czech and Slovakian but clubs IN ANY country) must and do accept breeding dogs from other countries. Even if there are NO RULES and all you need for breeding is just a pedigree...

But it has NOTHING to do with recognision of the bonitations. In this case you have the INTERNAL club rules who accept only COMPARABLE bonitations - made on the same "level" as the Czech and Slovak bonitations.

Rona · 08-09-2009, 10:18

In Poland dogs do not need bonitations to get the breeding rights, nor HD, ED, PRA, nor working exams, etc. but just three excellent (male) and at least very good (female) show results. So any extras the owners do with their dogs is just their good will connected with their care about the breed development.

However - not having the bonitation as the breeding requirement - the owners can bonitate their dogs as many times as they wish, which leads to humorous situations and uncovers the absurds of bonitations, which I have pointed out here several times.

Examples: one owner found bonitating his dog so enjoyable, that he repeats it every year

, another found that the dog lost 2 cm in height in one year.

Besides, if one dog gets P3 just because it loses just 0.03 to the required format to get P1 and another gets P3 despite clearly visible wrong format, (broad chest, short legs, etc.), long ears, dark eye - how can anybody treat bonitations seriously, wherever they are carried out? So the whole topic for me is just "much ado about nothing"

BUT: since wolfdog.org site is a private project, the owners/admins may set and apply any rules they wish and the users may either accept them or.... leave. Of course everybody may propose changes or improvements, but it's up the the owners if they accept them or not. I wonder why some people find it so difficult, almost impossible to understand?

PS When in 1989 private ownership was first introduced in our part of the world workers in one factory went on strike under the slogan "We want the company owner to be changed!" Doesn't it sound familiar?

massimo · 08-09-2009, 10:27

Rolf, it has already been said several times that Czech and Slovak clubs don't need to recognize a thing from outside countries.
You did actually say something rather obvious: if a Czech dog must get pedigree, the mother MUST have bonitation done in Czech republic and the father, if Czech, too. If the father is not Czech, he must have the minimum requirements for breeding in his country.
So they don't care how or if the dogs have been bonitated.

Also in Italy there are NO requirements for getting Pedigree...anything you do (bonitation, exams, xrays) is ONLY because of good will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

Besides, if one dog gets P3 just because it loses just 0.03 to the required format to get P1 and another gets P3 despite clearly visible wrong format, (broad chest, short legs, etc.), long ears, dark eye - how can anybody treat bonitations seriously, wherever they are carried out? So the whole topic for me is just "much ado about nothing"

BUT: since wolfdog.org site is a private project, the owners/admins may set and apply any rules they wish and the users may either accept them or.... leave. Of course everybody may propose changes or improvements, but it's up the the owners if they accept them or not. I wonder why some people find it so difficult, almost impossible to understand?

haha...you make me crack up! absolutely true.
massimo

Hanka · 08-09-2009, 10:30

Rolf, please where was video from czech bonitation? I had not see it......?
Rona, I think, it is not funny to go 2x or more to bonitation with one dog. I don´t understand why somebody do it. Maybe he wait best result for publicing?

Rona · 08-09-2009, 11:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Rona, I think, it is not funny to go 2x or more to bonitation with one dog.

Polish owners are not bound to obey Czech or Slovakian regulations, so why not?

Czech owners do not need to obey Polish ones (shows), either...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

I don´t understand why somebody do it. Maybe he wait best result for publicing?

Neither do I

But since the dog gets the same P1 code every time, it's definitely not the case you mention

Maybe the owner just enjoys it?

Juniorwolf · 08-09-2009, 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Admin

But it has NOTHING to do with recognision of the bonitations. In this case you have the INTERNAL club rules who accept only COMPARABLE bonitations - made on the same "level" as the Czech and Slovak bonitations.

Did you see the video of Slovak bonitation uploaded by Massimo ?
...if you did, how can you accept Slovak bonitations and not Italian bonitations ?

By internal club rules, do you mean that wolfdog.org is a club ?
Because speaking about comparable bonitations must be a joke, when it is very clear that Czech and Slovak bonitations is quit different from eachother, especially when comparing the charactertest, the R1 code and the significant of the index.

Greetings Rolf

Juniorwolf · 08-09-2009, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

Rolf, it has already been said several times that Czech and Slovak clubs don't need to recognize a thing from outside countries.
You did actually say something rather obvious: if a Czech dog must get pedigree, the mother MUST have bonitation done in Czech republic and the father, if Czech, too. If the father is not Czech, he must have the minimum requirements for breeding in his country.
So they don't care how or if the dogs have been bonitated.

Well I am sorry, but it was not obvious(or logical) to me, as in many other breeds it is possible(and normal) to get your dog bonitated in other countries, which is accepted and recognized by the breedclub in the country where the dog lives.

Greetings Rolf

Juniorwolf · 08-09-2009, 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

Rolf, please where was video from czech bonitation? I had not see it......?

I did not mention any video from Czech bonitation, but from Slovak bonitation.

Greetings Rolf

Hanka · 08-09-2009, 12:47

Ok, thanks

Navarre · 08-09-2009, 15:04

There is a main difference form italian and czech-slovakian character test : in the italian test the dog is never leaved ALONE.

I think this is a big difference that justify considering it a different test that should have different code as results.

Juniorwolf · 08-09-2009, 15:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Navarre

There is a main difference form italian and czech-slovakian character test : in the italian test the dog is never leaved ALONE.

I think this is a big difference that justify considering it a different test that should have different code as results.

...and the main difference between Czech and Slovak bonitations is aggeression in the charactertest, different ways of interpret the R1 code, the index and 1cm to little = P14.

This is 4 things, the Italian bonitation only have 1 difference compared to the Czech bonitation, so this should justify considering it a different test and different ways of jugdement, Czech and Slovak bonitations should have different codes as results

I will repeat my self again : one difference is not worser than another, it is still a difference.

Greetings Rolf

Monika · 08-09-2009, 17:50

Please, let Judge to say if dog is melancholic, choleric, sangvinic, flegmatic or something between this characteristic. Be alone I can lern shy dog without problem.
Important is, if the test is able to say something about volume of excitement and inhibition simply, about the adaptability and robustness aginst shot. And this italian test do it!
The bureaucracy not belong to breeding of dogs and wolfdog. org with admin WITHOUT NAME do it, simply.
I am sorry for my English.

Monika Soukupová

massimo · 10-09-2009, 01:47

Maybe some of you are interested to know what and how the bonitations in Italy really are.
As it was already said, the morphology is more or less the same as in other countries.
The difference is the Character test.
Some of you know that the character test is made, in Slovakia for example, first by doing a human group and the dog must walk within it.
Then the dog is tied to a pole an the figurant comes out once attacking him and then trying to have a normal contact with him in a calm way.
By these features, the judge is supposed to know, also considering how the dog behaved during the measurement, what kind of character code it deserves.
In italy we have the same group introduction, then the dog is tied up to a long leash and the onwer is holding the other side.
The figurant comes out of the revier with a menacing approach and the dog must react to the person protecting his owner and never pulling back.

We also have a moment in which somebody shoots to empty shots in the air and the dog must remain as it was before, no fear or anger.

I want to share the videos with you, maybe you have some further comments.

In this video Barishka is teaching Mio some manners...she is used to much stronger males...sorry!!

martiou07 · 10-09-2009, 09:12

hello, thank you for these vidéos.

how made you in Italy for correctly judging the characters in the presence of the owner ???

I made pass the bonitation to my female by Monika Soukupova, the test of character passed in my presence then without my presence. This year Daiva Rimaityte made pass to my male, the test of character without my presence. Thus a Czech bonitation and Slovak, we have well could see the character.

correct me if i am wrong :

interest of this test is to see whether the dog is able to go up in pressure and to go down again in pressure when it there does not have threat in front of the same person and without the owner?

I really do not see how to judge the character correctly; a dog then it is with its owner?? the dog defers its confidence on its owner, and the reaction can be completely different without its owner.

Afflicted, but I am not agreement with the test of character of the Italian bonitation, for me the results are not right whole .....

impossible to see whether the dog of itself goes down again in pressure, therefore to see the real stability of the dog , no ???

why do Italy make different test, which reproach towards the tests of Czech and Slovak ?????

sorry for my english

Martial

Hanka · 10-09-2009, 09:28

Hello Martial, I think the same. It is important to see dog reaction without owner. Some wolfdogs are selfconfident with owner behind back and the same dog is shy without owner. The reaction can be absolutly different.

wolfin · 10-09-2009, 10:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by massimo

attack:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904533370/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904574640/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904510540/
http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39036911

khmm i not saw normal psychical test ONLY training to defence with figurant and veeery gut figurant, he make dog agresive to atack, but this is training not normal behavior test, who make dog when in real he atack other man when he is alone without owner.
Nice training but not moore

08-09-2009, 10:18	#66
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	In Poland dogs do not need bonitations to get the breeding rights, nor HD, ED, PRA, nor working exams, etc. but just three excellent (male) and at least very good (female) show results. So any extras the owners do with their dogs is just their good will connected with their care about the breed development. However - not having the bonitation as the breeding requirement - the owners can bonitate their dogs as many times as they wish, which leads to humorous situations and uncovers the absurds of bonitations, which I have pointed out here several times. Examples: one owner found bonitating his dog so enjoyable, that he repeats it every year , another found that the dog lost 2 cm in height in one year. Besides, if one dog gets P3 just because it loses just 0.03 to the required format to get P1 and another gets P3 despite clearly visible wrong format, (broad chest, short legs, etc.), long ears, dark eye - how can anybody treat bonitations seriously, wherever they are carried out? So the whole topic for me is just "much ado about nothing" BUT: since wolfdog.org site is a private project, the owners/admins may set and apply any rules they wish and the users may either accept them or.... leave. Of course everybody may propose changes or improvements, but it's up the the owners if they accept them or not. I wonder why some people find it so difficult, almost impossible to understand? PS When in 1989 private ownership was first introduced in our part of the world workers in one factory went on strike under the slogan "We want the company owner to be changed!" Doesn't it sound familiar? __________________ Last edited by Rona; 08-09-2009 at 10:21. Reason: spelling error

08-09-2009, 15:04	#74
Navarre VIP Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Roma Posts: 5,998	There is a main difference form italian and czech-slovakian character test : in the italian test the dog is never leaved ALONE. I think this is a big difference that justify considering it a different test that should have different code as results. __________________ Susanna & Gianluca & Andrea & Navarre & Isabeau & Brandimarte & Anastasia & Lana Last Navarre & Beau Isabeau

08-09-2009, 17:50	#76
Monika Junior Member Join Date: Mar 2004 Posts: 346	Please, let Judge to say if dog is melancholic, choleric, sangvinic, flegmatic or something between this characteristic. Be alone I can lern shy dog without problem. Important is, if the test is able to say something about volume of excitement and inhibition simply, about the adaptability and robustness aginst shot. And this italian test do it! The bureaucracy not belong to breeding of dogs and wolfdog. org with admin WITHOUT NAME do it, simply. I am sorry for my English. Monika Soukupová Last edited by Monika; 08-09-2009 at 17:54.

10-09-2009, 01:47	#77
massimo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Prague 6 Posts: 2,090	Maybe some of you are interested to know what and how the bonitations in Italy really are. As it was already said, the morphology is more or less the same as in other countries. The difference is the Character test. Some of you know that the character test is made, in Slovakia for example, first by doing a human group and the dog must walk within it. Then the dog is tied to a pole an the figurant comes out once attacking him and then trying to have a normal contact with him in a calm way. By these features, the judge is supposed to know, also considering how the dog behaved during the measurement, what kind of character code it deserves. In italy we have the same group introduction, then the dog is tied up to a long leash and the onwer is holding the other side. The figurant comes out of the revier with a menacing approach and the dog must react to the person protecting his owner and never pulling back. We also have a moment in which somebody shoots to empty shots in the air and the dog must remain as it was before, no fear or anger. I want to share the videos with you, maybe you have some further comments. In this video Barishka is teaching Mio some manners...she is used to much stronger males...sorry!! http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39038527 Bonitations: Group: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3903841 http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39045516 http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39044903 http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904460 Gunshot: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904612042/ attack: http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904533370/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904574640/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/3904510540/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/oliver_luni/39036911 __________________ ---------- Oliver & Lunatica

10-09-2009, 09:12	#78
martiou07 Moderator Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: France Posts: 1,986	hello, thank you for these vidéos. how made you in Italy for correctly judging the characters in the presence of the owner ??? I made pass the bonitation to my female by Monika Soukupova, the test of character passed in my presence then without my presence. This year Daiva Rimaityte made pass to my male, the test of character without my presence. Thus a Czech bonitation and Slovak, we have well could see the character. correct me if i am wrong : interest of this test is to see whether the dog is able to go up in pressure and to go down again in pressure when it there does not have threat in front of the same person and without the owner? I really do not see how to judge the character correctly; a dog then it is with its owner?? the dog defers its confidence on its owner, and the reaction can be completely different without its owner. Afflicted, but I am not agreement with the test of character of the Italian bonitation, for me the results are not right whole ..... impossible to see whether the dog of itself goes down again in pressure, therefore to see the real stability of the dog , no ??? why do Italy make different test, which reproach towards the tests of Czech and Slovak ????? sorry for my english Martial __________________ Last edited by martiou07; 10-09-2009 at 09:47.

08-09-2009, 00:15	#64
Juniorwolf Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 575	I almost forgot ...I got answer from both Czech and Slovak club and apparently both countries only accept bonitations for their own breeding dogs which are made in their own country(Czech club only accept Czech bonitations for Czech breeding dogs and Slovak club only accept Slovak bonitations for Slovak breeding dogs, they don`t even accept eachothers), but Both clubs do officially ACCEPT any breeding dog, who have permission to breed in the country where it lives, so the conclution must be that it is ONLY wolfdog.org who do not accept Italian bonitations This should be the end of this discussion together with the video-clip that Massimo posted earlier, which CLEARLY shows that there is a difference in Czech and Slovak character test and the difference is absolutly the same as in the Italian character test. I just think it is funny, that non of the before so eager debaters, who was speaking against the Italian bonitations, have any comments to the FACT that wolfdog.org apparently is working against both the Czech and the Slovak clubs, by not accepting the Italian bonitations ...the same tendency can be seen in the thread about the stud dog list, where it is ONLY wolfdog.org who claim that dogs with ED is not to be used in the breeding and non of the clubs of origin have any restrictions about this or even require ED results. I wait for a correction of the faults made by wolfdog.org about bonitation as well as about ED. ...or at least a reasonable explanation why wolfdog.org do not accept the guidelines of the clubs of origin. Greetings Rolf

08-09-2009, 10:30	#68
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Rolf, please where was video from czech bonitation? I had not see it......? Rona, I think, it is not funny to go 2x or more to bonitation with one dog. I don´t understand why somebody do it. Maybe he wait best result for publicing?

08-09-2009, 12:47	#73
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Ok, thanks

10-09-2009, 09:28	#79
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Hello Martial, I think the same. It is important to see dog reaction without owner. Some wolfdogs are selfconfident with owner behind back and the same dog is shy without owner. The reaction can be absolutly different.