puppies tool

[Hanka]

Of course. I thought, somebody will react. But in breeding of animals (horses, cows,....) we look at father lines more than on mother lines. But we must look at mother lines too.
But planning in breeding depends mor on father lines.

[elf]

This is interesting Hanka because this is the way breeding groups work, but it's indeed a bit disconnect with reallity. For exemple, let's take a dog from group V: Ali Terespol. Look at it's inbreeding composition on 8 generations: http://www.amicale-chien-loup-tcheco...d=6671&depth=8

As you can see Rep comes first with 8.04901123047%. Atos Heol CS comes 2nd with 1.77384614945%, so far less. It's the same for all groups.

In the other hand, calculating COI on full pedigree is very interesting but it's a statistical footprint, it's difficult to make the difference between the "old influence and the new one" at genetic level as each generation bring it's new contribution with epigenetic changes (among others) that we know transmissible.

[Vaiva]

Well, I am just a beginner so sorry if now I will write a total nonsence, but... It is said, that when choosing a stud one should look to the mothers line of a male, to see if desired features are strong in it (line) Isn't this true?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Of course. I thought, somebody will react. But in breeding of animals (horses, cows,....) we look at father lines more than on mother lines. But we must look at mother lines too.
But planning in breeding depends mor on father lines.

As I have been breeding horses too and as a vet had to make an exam in breeding of animals I know that.
But if you want to avoid imbreeding instead of getting one attribute with a high probability in the offspring this is problematic. You could use a female with Rep as a father and still have a "Rep-free" line to give an extreme example.

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Well, I am just a beginner so sorry if now I will write a total nonsence, but... It is said, that when choosing a stud one should look to the mothers line of a male, to see if desired features are strong in it (line) Isn't this true?

If you look on features in breeding you have to look on both sides but there are always individuals that tend to give their features to all offspring, no matter what features the other side has. As a male individual can have much more offspring in a shorter time you give more weight on fathers and base a line in, for example race horses, on the fatherline cause you see the features of the offspring in a much higher amount in a much faster time. As a mare can only have one foal a year you talk of lines like Nothern Dancer or Secretarian but of course you also look for the mare if you are a good breeder.

Ina

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

If you look on features in breeding you have to look on both sides but there are always individuals that tend to give their features to all offspring, no matter what features the other side has. As a male individual can have much more offspring in a shorter time you give more weight on fathers and base a line in, for example race horses, on the fatherline cause you see the features of the offspring in a much higher amount in a much faster time. As a mare can only have one foal a year you talk of lines like Nothern Dancer or Secretarian but of course you also look for the mare if you are a good breeder.

Ina

But this not nesecerelly work with wolfdogs, when we have males with only one or two litters, and mostly females, used for breeding, have litters almost every year But if theoretically both male and female have the same amount of offsprings, are both sides equally important?

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

As both sides give the equal amount of genes apart from maybe some autosomal inherited genes they should be

[yukidomari]

Interestingly enough, the Bedouin and their breeding of their famed Arabian horses always believed that maternal lines were the determinators of genetic disposition, and that the male influence was only potent for the first couple of generations. In fact, Arabian horse pedigrees are traced by maternal lines and have been for hundreds of years.

Recently there have been some studies on mitochondrial DNA that suggest the lasting life of maternal DNA that male DNA did not have...

Of course, in a world of livestock and dog breeding, which was traditionally left to men, male animals were considered to have a stronger genetic make up, or a stronger influence on progeny.. this was even a idea that applied to humans, that females are just the 'vessels' in a which a male's 'seed' grew.

And of course, financially speaking, male animals are generally worth more because they can be bred more often and their genetic contributions can be sold piece-meal by artificial insemination, whereas a female animal could not.

Here is a good article regarding the subject.. it is in regards to pigeon breeding, but it is a good article nonetheless:

http://www.pipa.be/en/newsandarticle...-maternal-line

http://www.sport-horse-breeder.com/the-Mare.html

For example in horses, "The Thoroughbred industry has noted that sustaining traits for speed have come most reliably up the female lines.".. (second article)

[buidelwolf]

Hi Hanka,

This is very interesting and totally new to me:

Hanka:

Hi Buidelwolf, I have only one small note. Not all our dogs are related to Rep z Pohraniční stráže. We have 8 groups of males, but only 4 are based on him.
Yes, somewhere in mother side can be some Rep (or no) but in breeding we look at father lines.

I can find no contemporary Cvs living today, without a heavy dose of Rep in its genes (even only from fathers' lines); can you give us some examples of Cvs' still alive without Rep in the genes?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by saschia

Thanks for all the fast answers!

Elf, that is great that you can use your tool that way, I should read the manuals it seems...

I didn't understand a thing also Miss the good old puppies tool... It was so sweet and friendly

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Recently there have been some studies on mitochondrial DNA that suggest the lasting life of maternal DNA that male DNA did not have...

Yes, you are right, I forgot about that.

[saschia]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Recently there have been some studies on mitochondrial DNA that suggest the lasting life of maternal DNA that male DNA did not have...

Yes, that's true, but the mitochondrial DNA only has the genes encoding proteins involved in the mitochondrial metabolism, and not all of them even. So mitochondrial DNA is great for genetical studies on evolution, population biology, speciation etc., but the DNA itself does not do much about the individual characteristics and absolutely nothing about the genetical variability of the population, it actually includes some of the most conserved genes there are - those are genes that are least changed as time goes and are very similar even in very unrelated species.

[saschia]

I forgot to add - there are of course regions of mitochondrial DNA that change quite rapidly, so can be different even between the individuals of the same species, or races or even families maybe, but those are non-coding regions, not the genes.

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by saschia

Yes, that's true, but the mitochondrial DNA only has the genes encoding proteins involved in the mitochondrial metabolism, and not all of them even. So mitochondrial DNA is great for genetical studies on evolution, population biology, speciation etc., but the DNA itself does not do much about the individual characteristics and absolutely nothing about the genetical variability of the population, it actually includes some of the most conserved genes there are - those are genes that are least changed as time goes and are very similar even in very unrelated species.

Oh, definitely!! The studies are not in the least conclusive..just exciting research on the differences on the inheritance of male and female genetics. Would definitely like to see if there are any other differences.

[Ligerwolve2]

Just fascinating. I have a bitch (GSD) that throws her temperament every time regardless of the male. Same with size all her pups are large. Ive tried to carefully select studs with the genetic make up to get smaller animals but never had any luck.

[elf]

Originally Posted by buidelwolf

I can find no contemporary Cvs living today, without a heavy dose of Rep in its genes (even only from fathers' lines); can you give us some examples of Cvs' still alive without Rep in the genes?

Yes, all living CSV have a lot of Rep, no one without.