Calculation of Wolf blood? - Page 4

06-08-2010, 04:07

I just read this on the Wolf Park website and thought it would be applicable to share.

I think this is what they used to lecture off of when we did our wolf & dog seminar there, really suggest it to anyone who could make it!

http://wolfpark.org/ccpage3.shtml

Gypsy Wolf · 06-08-2010, 04:28

Very cool article. Regardless of "content" or percentage, I see in my own vlcaks the difference. And it makes me wonder if it is really possible to have a dog that looks like a wolf but acts like a dog? If temperament follows phenotype, perhaps we will always have an issue with wolfy behavior in wolfy-looking vlcaks. Either that or we just need more generations of selective breeding to get it right. After all we are a relatively new breed... I just wish I'd been around to see a vlcak like Rep z Pohranicni Straze - supposedly the perfect vlcak - wolfy looking but super character...

hanninadina · 07-08-2010, 00:21

But Rep was "Hybrid" F 2? How can it be that such an animal has super character????? Did not everybody tell that "Hybrids" can not have "super" character? His grandfather from fathers side was Sarik, male wolf cross bred in 1974!

Science says: If you do selective breeding you have a dog at F 3
generation. Karel Hartl told the same! Some of course are with F 2 a dog, for example Rep?! I personally do know nothing about Rep his character. I only saw some pictures, where it seems that he looks nice.

By the way I got yesterday a link to the book about the german shepards from breed founder Max von Stephanitz from 1921(!). There are a lot of nice pictures from the original breed in it. And of course one picture where a gsd and a wolf are leashed side by side. And a F 1 from gsd and wolf who looks like wolfy csw. The book is in german but, really funny, out of a library in North Carolina. Someone scanned it and now it is in internet for free. Who is interested can send me an eMail or sms.

Good night
Christian

Gypsy Wolf · 07-08-2010, 01:38

Well, according to all the current research, regardless of whether or not Rep was F2, he apparently inherited exactly the characteristics they were breeding for at the time. If you read the WolfPark article, it mentions how "erroneous" the "percentage" argument really is - a wolf-dog cross can inherit the "best" or the "worst" of both...
Perhaps the 50% parts Rep got was the best parts of wolf and GSD. Now, whether or not his offspring inherited that is the question. And some dogs are better producers than they are as actual specimens of the breed. Genetics is like throwing a bunch of dice in the air... you may have the same dice every time, but they won't display the same number every time.
One reason it's nearly useless to breed to a great "brother" rather than the great dog itself... just because they are littermates does not mean they inherited the same things... Also another reason tight breeding solidifies "type" - by narrowing the gene pool, you can "load the dice"... make it more likely to get what you want, and line-bred animals have closer genotype-phenotype...
I have Max v Stephanitz's book, too - very interesting and can't wait for the Karel Hartl book to be translated to English...!!!

michaelundinaeichhorn · 07-08-2010, 09:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

If you read the WolfPark article, it mentions how "erroneous" the "percentage" argument really is - a wolf-dog cross can inherit the "best" or the "worst" of both...
!

Exactly, science says if you select only on the marker tameness you will have "dogs" in a litter of F3, but not that the whole litter will show that kind of character. The military did an extremely hard selection on character and had to do this much longer than F3, the first character-test was made with 8 weeks and all dogs showing shy behaviour were killed. But I still got to know some genetic wolflike-shy CSW about 10-13 years ago, though none today.
And we should remember that this kind of shyness means permanent livelong stress to the creature, for me a kind of abuse.
But anyway this is OT, after decades of breeding without wolves crossed in the wolfpercentage only is a number that will not change out of mathamatical reason, nothing else.

Ina

hanninadina · 07-08-2010, 10:19

Luna`s mum, now you gave the answer why csw differ so much in behaviour, the mix of genes. And now you know why italians csw are much more doggie like than the rest of the "pack" because the "right" breeders do much more and faster selection than the others simply because they do more litters and can choose always the best and doggie like animals.

Sorry, Ina if you would read "The keeping of wolfdog-hybrids in Great Britain" - it is from 2000 - you would notice that it is not a question of "hard" selection but truely a selection of course of tame, friendly, open, not aggressive and not shy animals. The workabilities are not interesting, only for military. Other wise Great Britain never would say in his laws that from F 3 on every wolfdog is a dog! The netherlands say the same. And in italy is the law that from F 2 you do not need permission - so because it is dog.

And as I wrote, I do not know, how the character of Rep was, but it seems to me that he was a nice guy. Otherwise I would not know why he was bred so often.

Out of Stephanitz, The german Shepard, edition from 1921, page 10:

"There live naturefriends between us, who have much tame, wilddogs, espicially wolves, used to streetlife in big cities and who claimed that is nothing difficult to get used them to do that. Such tame "wilddogs" - Stephanitz calls wolves wilddogs - learn to bark, show their feelings to their owner or other family members in the same way like normal dogs do."

And on page 45 you can see a german shepard leashed beside a wolf, like two dogs!

Very interesting!

Nice weekend to everybody.

Christian

Gypsy Wolf · 07-08-2010, 23:12

Yes, there are apparently wolves in any given litter that have more "tame" characteristics... I have a subscription to that "Wolfdog" Magazine, and there are wolf breeders who "selectively" breed wolves to produce animals suitable for "educational" purposes... obviously you don't want a shy nutball in a classroom... I am curious to know how often they have to infuse new "wild" blood, though, as like the Balyeav Fox experiment, selecting just for tameness produces "infantile" and "domestic" traits - in foxes, curled spitz-like tails, floppy ears and patchwork coats....
So I would think if one bred wild wolves long enough selecting just tameness, obviously a DOG would emerge! And if one IS breeding wild wolves, at some point DO THEY BECOME DOGS?

hanninadina · 09-08-2010, 11:06

Even in Finland it is allowed to have wolfdogs, no matter if F 1 or high content. They do wolfdogshows and is written about in the newspapers!

What do you mean with "wild" wolves? Wolf pups getting out of the wild and than raised up in human hands?

These wolves you are talking about are for many many years in peoples hands and are almost like dogs. Mostly in behaviour not quite different to csw! But much more calm and no aggression or hyperactivity. German shepard is mostly missing in them.... They go back and not in front like a dog, they do not attack.

Christian

Gypsy Wolf · 09-08-2010, 16:50

By "wild wolves" I am referring to wild parents - the pups obviously have to be raised by humans to become acclimated... so, say that is your first generation out of the wild... of those pups, you select the "tamest" and breed them - second generation removed from the wild... the pups they have would be third generation from "wild" - even if you are using selective breeding (say, only MacKenzie Valley wolves), by generation "4" of HUMAN SELECTED BREEDING, are they DOGS or WOLVES?

hanninadina · 09-08-2010, 17:16

Wolves.

I think, in only 4 generations from the wild you will get a wolfdog, if you have the chance to breed only tame open wolves. I know two wild caught (as puppies) wolves, a male and a female. The female is open and friendly and is not afraid of strangers. The male is a bit back, I would not say shy. He stays in about 4 m away, but he does not try to hide or something like this. They are only one year old and we will see how they develop.

Here you get very good information, how it "works" breeding wolves to dogs:

http://www.floridalupine.org/publica...s_and_Dogs.htm

But of course there can be tame wolves from the wild. The problem is you have to get a pair so that you can breed them in further back generations. But how you will can say there are wild wolves which are tame? You must have the chance to watch them in nature. So you had to get the whole litters to watch and then to decide. This is almost impossible. There are a lot of wolves in zoos, animalpark, movie industry, where you can get them as adults or as pups.

Saying it needs only 3 generations to get a dog out of a wolf means crossing pure wolf with wolfdog or dog. And there are some exceptions where these wolfdogs are F 2 and like dog. And there are wolves who are 12 generations behind wild caught wolves and they only look like wolves but they are dogs.

Looking at the statement from Monty Sloan that it needs 2 time of work life to get a dog out of a wolf would mean that you need about 70 to 80 years to get a dog. But I think he meant to breed only wolves from the start getting them out of the wild. But even that is too long. I will talk to him soon when I will meet him in september in sweden.

Christian

07-08-2010, 10:19	#66
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Luna`s mum, now you gave the answer why csw differ so much in behaviour, the mix of genes. And now you know why italians csw are much more doggie like than the rest of the "pack" because the "right" breeders do much more and faster selection than the others simply because they do more litters and can choose always the best and doggie like animals. Sorry, Ina if you would read "The keeping of wolfdog-hybrids in Great Britain" - it is from 2000 - you would notice that it is not a question of "hard" selection but truely a selection of course of tame, friendly, open, not aggressive and not shy animals. The workabilities are not interesting, only for military. Other wise Great Britain never would say in his laws that from F 3 on every wolfdog is a dog! The netherlands say the same. And in italy is the law that from F 2 you do not need permission - so because it is dog. And as I wrote, I do not know, how the character of Rep was, but it seems to me that he was a nice guy. Otherwise I would not know why he was bred so often. Out of Stephanitz, The german Shepard, edition from 1921, page 10: "There live naturefriends between us, who have much tame, wilddogs, espicially wolves, used to streetlife in big cities and who claimed that is nothing difficult to get used them to do that. Such tame "wilddogs" - Stephanitz calls wolves wilddogs - learn to bark, show their feelings to their owner or other family members in the same way like normal dogs do." And on page 45 you can see a german shepard leashed beside a wolf, like two dogs! Very interesting! Nice weekend to everybody. Christian Last edited by hanninadina; 07-08-2010 at 10:27.

06-08-2010, 04:07	#61
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	I just read this on the Wolf Park website and thought it would be applicable to share. I think this is what they used to lecture off of when we did our wolf & dog seminar there, really suggest it to anyone who could make it! http://wolfpark.org/ccpage3.shtml

06-08-2010, 04:28	#62
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Very cool article. Regardless of "content" or percentage, I see in my own vlcaks the difference. And it makes me wonder if it is really possible to have a dog that looks like a wolf but acts like a dog? If temperament follows phenotype, perhaps we will always have an issue with wolfy behavior in wolfy-looking vlcaks. Either that or we just need more generations of selective breeding to get it right. After all we are a relatively new breed... I just wish I'd been around to see a vlcak like Rep z Pohranicni Straze - supposedly the perfect vlcak - wolfy looking but super character...

07-08-2010, 00:21	#63
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	But Rep was "Hybrid" F 2? How can it be that such an animal has super character????? Did not everybody tell that "Hybrids" can not have "super" character? His grandfather from fathers side was Sarik, male wolf cross bred in 1974! Science says: If you do selective breeding you have a dog at F 3 generation. Karel Hartl told the same! Some of course are with F 2 a dog, for example Rep?! I personally do know nothing about Rep his character. I only saw some pictures, where it seems that he looks nice. By the way I got yesterday a link to the book about the german shepards from breed founder Max von Stephanitz from 1921(!). There are a lot of nice pictures from the original breed in it. And of course one picture where a gsd and a wolf are leashed side by side. And a F 1 from gsd and wolf who looks like wolfy csw. The book is in german but, really funny, out of a library in North Carolina. Someone scanned it and now it is in internet for free. Who is interested can send me an eMail or sms. Good night Christian

07-08-2010, 01:38	#64
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Well, according to all the current research, regardless of whether or not Rep was F2, he apparently inherited exactly the characteristics they were breeding for at the time. If you read the WolfPark article, it mentions how "erroneous" the "percentage" argument really is - a wolf-dog cross can inherit the "best" or the "worst" of both... Perhaps the 50% parts Rep got was the best parts of wolf and GSD. Now, whether or not his offspring inherited that is the question. And some dogs are better producers than they are as actual specimens of the breed. Genetics is like throwing a bunch of dice in the air... you may have the same dice every time, but they won't display the same number every time. One reason it's nearly useless to breed to a great "brother" rather than the great dog itself... just because they are littermates does not mean they inherited the same things... Also another reason tight breeding solidifies "type" - by narrowing the gene pool, you can "load the dice"... make it more likely to get what you want, and line-bred animals have closer genotype-phenotype... I have Max v Stephanitz's book, too - very interesting and can't wait for the Karel Hartl book to be translated to English...!!!

07-08-2010, 23:12	#67
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Yes, there are apparently wolves in any given litter that have more "tame" characteristics... I have a subscription to that "Wolfdog" Magazine, and there are wolf breeders who "selectively" breed wolves to produce animals suitable for "educational" purposes... obviously you don't want a shy nutball in a classroom... I am curious to know how often they have to infuse new "wild" blood, though, as like the Balyeav Fox experiment, selecting just for tameness produces "infantile" and "domestic" traits - in foxes, curled spitz-like tails, floppy ears and patchwork coats.... So I would think if one bred wild wolves long enough selecting just tameness, obviously a DOG would emerge! And if one IS breeding wild wolves, at some point DO THEY BECOME DOGS?

09-08-2010, 11:06	#68
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Even in Finland it is allowed to have wolfdogs, no matter if F 1 or high content. They do wolfdogshows and is written about in the newspapers! What do you mean with "wild" wolves? Wolf pups getting out of the wild and than raised up in human hands? These wolves you are talking about are for many many years in peoples hands and are almost like dogs. Mostly in behaviour not quite different to csw! But much more calm and no aggression or hyperactivity. German shepard is mostly missing in them.... They go back and not in front like a dog, they do not attack. Christian

09-08-2010, 16:50	#69
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	By "wild wolves" I am referring to wild parents - the pups obviously have to be raised by humans to become acclimated... so, say that is your first generation out of the wild... of those pups, you select the "tamest" and breed them - second generation removed from the wild... the pups they have would be third generation from "wild" - even if you are using selective breeding (say, only MacKenzie Valley wolves), by generation "4" of HUMAN SELECTED BREEDING, are they DOGS or WOLVES?

09-08-2010, 17:16	#70
hanninadina Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2,466	Wolves. I think, in only 4 generations from the wild you will get a wolfdog, if you have the chance to breed only tame open wolves. I know two wild caught (as puppies) wolves, a male and a female. The female is open and friendly and is not afraid of strangers. The male is a bit back, I would not say shy. He stays in about 4 m away, but he does not try to hide or something like this. They are only one year old and we will see how they develop. Here you get very good information, how it "works" breeding wolves to dogs: http://www.floridalupine.org/publica...s_and_Dogs.htm But of course there can be tame wolves from the wild. The problem is you have to get a pair so that you can breed them in further back generations. But how you will can say there are wild wolves which are tame? You must have the chance to watch them in nature. So you had to get the whole litters to watch and then to decide. This is almost impossible. There are a lot of wolves in zoos, animalpark, movie industry, where you can get them as adults or as pups. Saying it needs only 3 generations to get a dog out of a wolf means crossing pure wolf with wolfdog or dog. And there are some exceptions where these wolfdogs are F 2 and like dog. And there are wolves who are 12 generations behind wild caught wolves and they only look like wolves but they are dogs. Looking at the statement from Monty Sloan that it needs 2 time of work life to get a dog out of a wolf would mean that you need about 70 to 80 years to get a dog. But I think he meant to breed only wolves from the start getting them out of the wild. But even that is too long. I will talk to him soon when I will meet him in september in sweden. Christian