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Old 25-01-2004, 13:05   #1
mutt
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Hi
My husband and I are interested in taking a wolfdog as a pet. We are in the Uk. £2000 does seem expensive. Can anyone shed any light on what is a fair price? You have to accept that a rear or new breed will have a higher price. My husband has contacted the people mentioned, but we are unsure as to what we ought to be paying.
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Old 25-01-2004, 13:19   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutt
Hi
My husband and I are interested in taking a wolfdog as a pet. We are in the Uk. £2000 does seem expensive. Can anyone shed any light on what is a fair price? You have to accept that a rear or new breed will have a higher price. My husband has contacted the people mentioned, but we are unsure as to what we ought to be paying.
usually in Italy the price requested for a puppy is 1000-1300 euro from champions parents, similar in Deutschland...a bit lower in other country of eastern europe.
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Old 25-01-2004, 14:16   #3
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Yes but that´s the price in Euro not pound. I think 2000 - 2500 Euros are around the realistic price if you think of bringing a dog to the UK if the breeder does all the things that are necessary for that.

regards Ina
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Old 25-01-2004, 15:43   #4
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Hi, conor here. This is my first post.
I went to see Paul and Mandy yesterday, and I spoke to Paul about many things, including the tragic death of Lynx, and the price of the puppies. Any potential owner in the UK has to bear in mind that a lot of the pain associated with acquiring one of these dogs has been eliminated by Paul and Mandy. We will get our pups at the optimum yime for socialising, instead of having to wait for the approriate Rabies tests to be done, and other delays that occur upon trying to import one for ourselves. We will also not incur the expense involved, or the stress both to ourselves, and our new dogs. £2000 is a lot, but I think it isn't too far from the mark of what you should expect to pay for a rare dog such as the CzW. Should you choose to undertake to breed your animal at a later stage, you will almost certainly re-coup the initial outlay, and I can't imagine it beign hard to make a profit!

I checked the pups out, and it is obvoius that Lynx was a good mother, and that Paul and Mandy know what they are about. From what i had read, I expected all of these pups to be shy, reserved, and wary of me. Instead i was literally knocked over by their enthusiastic approaches they made to me. They are a happy, well adjusted, sociable litter. I can't wait 'til next week, when I pick up the dog i selected.

Throughout the entire process paul and mandy have been helpful and have given me advice and guidance. they are very approachable and down to earth, as well as knowlegeable. It showed in the qualtiy of the pups I saw and handled yesterday.
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Old 25-01-2004, 16:52   #5
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mmm... 2000 pounds are 2900 euro !!!


this breeder is the one and only in UK....

I think that this is the only thing that justifies that price.

or maybe the cost of life is so high in UK ?
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Old 25-01-2004, 18:34   #6
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Indeed, the costs of live are extremly high in the UK. The last time we´ve been there we payed 240 Euros for four Pizzas and two bottles of ordinary housewine in a normal Pizzeria, fortunately we´ve very good friends there.
And I think Conor is right, They´ve been through a lot of troubles to get this litter. What makes Lynx death even more tragic than it is anyway.
The only thing to worry about is that looking on long terms somebody has to get through this trouble again to get other bloodlines into the country.

Ina
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Old 25-01-2004, 18:44   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn
Indeed, the costs of live are extremly high in the UK. The last time we´ve been there we payed 240 Euros for four Pizzas and two bottles of ordinary housewine in a normal Pizzeria, fortunately we´ve very good friends there.
And I think Conor is right, They´ve been through a lot of troubles to get this litter. What makes Lynx death even more tragic than it is anyway.
The only thing to worry about is that looking on long terms somebody has to get through this trouble again to get other bloodlines into the country.

Ina
hi there my wife & i already have breeding programe set up & fresh bloodlines will be imported later this year regards paul
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Old 25-01-2004, 18:46   #8
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Default Re: UK only breeders bitch dies tonight in accident!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mid'lifecry'sis
My thoughts go to Paul and Mandy who I have gotten to know due to the tragic loss of there bitch - so close to having the full breeding programme accepted by the Kennel club here in the UK.

Paul visits the Web site regularly, so I know he won't mind me asking of anyone thinks £2000 pounds sterling each - is this high or the correct price - I hope to fall in love with a pup this weekend.

Chris
I will start of my reply by firstly stating that Chris will never own a Czech Wolfdog that I have bred or from my breeding stock in the U.K

In answer to the price of a pup, prices are set with the dogs on availability [as with everything], so in countries where the Czech is more available prices will be set lower than in the U.K. I pay double the price sometimes treble Vets fees. In the U.K the average price for a pedigree dog is £600-£750. For a dog bred from a champion parents it is between £1200-£3000 depending on the breed, the rarity of the dog the higher the price.

I speant nearly 5 years searching for a Czech. I sold my home in the U.K in order to live and work with the breed, I have speant 100's of hours with paper work getting ready to do my best to get the breed recongnised by the kennel club and I am nearly there.

Chris did you ever wonder why there are no Czechs in the U.k? Because nobody could do it! they all gave up!

With the average prices of dogs in the U.K do you think I will ever sell a Czech at an average price that could buy a British Bulldog or other common breeds?! Do not insult this breed of dog online! In fact I set you an online challenge for you to go find yourself a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog Mr smart arse!

The U.K is a very expensive place. Vet bills are high, Vaccinations are high, Dog food is expensive, it costs on average nearly %500 to rear one pup ready for sale.

People like Chris sit back and let other people do all the work and effort, years of hard work getting this breed to the U.L. If it were not for the dedicated Czech overs in the U.K I woud take them all back the Europe, but why ruin it all for a fool like Chris. No Chris you can't have your cake and eat it. Not with the Czech wolfdog! Thank you Conor for your mail and if Chris had of asked the questions you did. Yes. The pups are worth every penny or their weight in gold.

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Old 25-01-2004, 19:02   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mutt
Hi
My husband and I are interested in taking a wolfdog as a pet. We are in the Uk. £2000 does seem expensive. Can anyone shed any light on what is a fair price? You have to accept that a rear or new breed will have a higher price. My husband has contacted the people mentioned, but we are unsure as to what we ought to be paying.
hi paul winder here why have you not tried to get a czech from europe like i did ? you & chris are the only people who have questioned the price, why dont you team up & go to europe & get some czechs in & help the breed develope instead of running my wife & i down over price, the price is justified infact it is low. a british bulldog is £1500, a thia ridgeback in uk is £6000 thank god you did not want one of them. i have no time for this my concern is getting the bred reconised by the kennel club, if this price is high you will never own a czech .
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Old 25-01-2004, 21:03   #10
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Hello Pacino,

we are going to be in England in June leading a german trecking tour with dogs through the yorkshire dales. If everything goes like we plan (that means my husband and me are able to go) we will take at least one of our wolfdogs with us. Maybe we could meet there?

Regards Ina
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Old 26-01-2004, 10:51   #11
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Paul is right - that's a good price given my own research into the import costs and pain. If you are in the UK and need one of these, these two breeders are the one's to see it's worth every penny; they will look after you and have a huge reputation in the UK. I would suggest that you pay Paul the 2k and thank your lucky stars that they have completed all of the work for you; I questioned without thought and following research - you don't want to get involved in imports. As for timing - agreed the same email was foolish.

Chris
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Old 26-01-2004, 11:51   #12
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Conor here.
I am very pleased that this breed has been introduced to the UK by people like Paul and Mandy. Even if the breed had been here years and had been well established, I still would have wanted to get a dog from the likes of them. I have encountered no condescension, no overtures of cynical money making, and concern and questioning from them to ensure that their dogs are going to go to the right homes. I am fully satisfied that I have gone to the right people. I am fortunate in that the dog I am taking is also of excellent pedigree, as well as nurture. As Paul says, both of these factors ALWAYS command higher prices, and I am happy to pay it, as I am re-assured that I am buying into future support and help when we (the dog and I) need it. Once I get this guy home and happy, I am going to seriously consider acquiring a bitch. I will be referring to Paul and Mandy, at least for advice, and almost certainly for the dog itself, if they have any available.

From my previous experience of British dog breeders, they usually seem aloof, elitist, and reluctant to divulge their 'secret' knowledge in case you get one up on them, and to hell with the pup you took from them six months ago. Add to that the puppy farms and I am sure the result is a lot of unhappy, uncared for dogs, and confused, unknowledgable owners. We all should be looking to put a stop to that. It's a shame there aren't more people breeding different breeds of dogs in the UK who have the same attitude as Paul and Mandy. I know that I am going to learn a lot from them, and that they will teach me happily.

Paul and Mandy also want owners who are going to become actively involved in assisting the establishment of the breed in the UK, so they are anticipating some comittment from us, the new owners. I veiw this positively and with excitment, as the net result should be a group of dedicated owners maintaining contact, sharing experience, and hopefully developing friendships. I hope that we will all work together to protect, nurture and positively promote the CzW as the UKs newest, and most noble breed.

Conor
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Old 26-01-2004, 14:02   #13
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Very intersting subject. I just wrote long long reply, and my computer missed it, so i start again.

We have momentally at home 4 import Ceskoslovensky's, 2 import Saarloos, 2 import Spinonis
and two "Fin made" dogs (German Shepherd and Fila Brasileiro)
+ FIN made Ceskoslovensky puppies

To breed a dogs is easy, to breed good or excellent dogs is not so easy anymore, and to breed and find good homes for a wolfdog is sometimes impossible, example here in Finland.
I think dog price is not the main thing if you want dog, even for me it isn't. I know, for some people it is. But never should be.
To take care of dog is not free. And livin costs in different countries are very different. Nearest example for us is Russia,or Estonia.
Both very much cheaper than Finland, and both so near that we can go there in two hours.
I spoke now about Finland, for an example. You have to pay taxes from every dog you own every year and you get nothing for that. Your dog must be leashed, well trained, quet and clean all the time. If any troubles come out, it's immediatelly in newspapers and soon hole breed can be illegal,cause of some unresponsible owners/breeders. As an wolfdog breeder i never wanna that happen, and i really try to find good enough homes for puppies leave from us. If i don't, puppies stay by us longer. That is a fact.
Vet cost, show entrees, dog food, meat, all very expensive here. Distances are also very long here, and average show trip is 500 kilometers. Gasolin, cars and taxes which you to pay to own a car is very expensive too. Heating costs for you, or for your kennel houses are amazing, and you have to keep heating on here at least half a year, more cold, more dogfood which your dog use. Dogs need more energy in cold weather. Simple, but expensive.

I guess, average dog price in Finland is 900 Eur, example all "toydogs" costs 1000-1200Eur no matter are they rare or not.
Of course more rare more price.
Cats with pedigree cost here from 600 to 1500 Eur, yes, cats. German shepherds costs 800Eur, and registered every year about 2500 piece.
My wolfdog puppies costs 1300-1500Eur depence on breed and a little bit pedigree,show results and so on. I guess, that is not much. Not much from a breed we have here momentally 14+ 8 puppy (saarloos 10 piece, first saarloos litter, puppyprice over 2000Eur )
Not much from a breed which can easily live 14 years and everyone who have wolfdog knows what kind of costs it can made within it's life.
Not much, as you get a puppy with pedigree, microchip, veterinary healthy certificate, over 100 pages feeding, training and how to take care instructions with life long support. Is it? I guess no.

For me a price of puppy is not decisive, then what is? BREEDERS KNOWLEDGE and interesting for the breed, pedigrees, healthy parents and how breeder take care of own dogs and puppies. For me, 1500Eur from a dog is average price, i could pay also more, if i really want a dog. And i had pay, many times. Not just for a dog directly, but with import costs, yes. I am not a millionaire, i work with normal cellary (average)
8 hours daily, and as an hobby, i breed wolfdogs. I don't see any sense to compare dogprices between different countries, cause my opinion still is, that it all depence what you get. And if wanna compare prices of dogs, have to compare everything else too then.

Price of puppy in England is high, but i understund it well. Livin costs in England is very high too, and litter is first.
Breeders in england i don't know, but i believe they are good responsible breeders.
If somebody wanted a puppy from me to England, i can say, that with all costs which will come out (as Ina said already) , it's not much cheaper than puppies in England now. Of course, it's new blood then and worth of it, but every people don't wanna breed, and don't need different bloodlines then.

One example still, i could buy a Fila brasileiro from russia in 300Eur, but i didn't. I buy it from Finland, and pay 1500Eur. And i never regret that. Why? I know what i get, i get a dog from responsible breeder who really is interesting on it's breed and i get also life long support.
He breed Filas for a very deep love in that breed, not for a money.

I hope you all understund which kind of breed you have in your hands, i really wish cooperation more, and i wish you all breed your dogs as an hobby, deep love in this breed, not for a money. Then it's worth of it, cause we all know, what you left behind, you find in front, sooner or later, and these kind of breeds really need responsible owners and even more responsible breeders. We have at home momentally 6 Ceskoslovensky puppies age of 7 weeks, still without home, cause i haven't find good enough yet. I hope i find soon, but also know, i'll keep it longer, if i don't.

I wish all the best for everyone, especially for English litter and breeders, i know how hard it sometimes can be with these dogs,
to breed it, try to find good homes.

Greetings from cold (expensive) Finland; Suski, Kennel WolfSirius

(this wasn't so good as my first missed reply, but i hope you understund me still...)
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Old 27-01-2004, 15:16   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Conor
From what i had read, I expected all of these pups to be shy, reserved, and wary of me.
NO. The CzW puppies are very open, prying and self-confident. But on the condition that they will be adequately socialized by the breeder.
Most of the puppies are born in the winner. They stay in the kennels for the whole time without the contact with people, dogs, aso. Most of them see the breeder only during the feeding time. Such puppies are shy and reserved. And sometimes they stay shy for the whole lifetime.

If you will find a good breeder, you will also get a good puppy (at least concerning the character).
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Old 27-01-2004, 16:45   #15
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Thanks Margo. This is just the sort of thing I am wanting people to tell me about. I want to soak up as much information as I can, and establish contact with those of you who are already in the know, or who want to discuss your own particular take on dogs, wolves and wolfdogs.
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Old 28-01-2004, 12:25   #16
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hi paul winder here why have you not tried to get a czech from europe like i did ? you & chris are the only people who have questioned the price, why dont you team up & go to europe & get some czechs in & help the breed develope instead of running my wife & i down over price, the price is justified infact it is low. a british bulldog is £1500, a thia ridgeback in uk is £6000 thank god you did not want one of them. i have no time for this my concern is getting the bred reconised by the kennel club, if this price is high you will never own a czech .
Hi everyone.
I was only asking a civil question, and a question that any reasonable person would enquire about out of common sense. We are not looking to cause friction with anyone either here in the Uk, or on the continent. We simply want to make certain that we make the right moves, and start off on the right foot. We didn't dismiss the sum of £2000, but thought it sensible to make an effort to get information and therefore establish a proper starting point. My husband and I and the kids will give a CzW a loving home, and if £2000 is the price, we will pay it once we are satisfied the pup is well, and has been appropriately reared. We live in the middle of Argyllshire on a 20 acer small plot.
We understand that importing would be expensive and time consuming, and on top of that it is harder to maintain contact with people who are in different countries.

Karin and Donald
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Old 28-01-2004, 17:07   #17
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I’m normally pretty easy going, but to be frank, this posting has really angered and sickened me …

The Winders are currently going through one of the most traumatic times of their lives, and yet this forum seems more concerned with their pricing policy than showing the sympathy that is due!
Do you honestly think that this is what Paul and Mandy need to be concerned with at present?

If any of you have ever lost a dearly loved animal, then you might just understand what Paul and Mandy are going through. Remember how you felt when your animal died? The loss: the anger: the bitterness?

Well, now add to that the 6 years of hard work that the Winders have endured to get to the point they are at now with this breed! 6 whole years of serious slog, battling red tape, procrastinators, recriminations, bureaucrats and scaremongers. Imagine the months of paperwork, telephone calls, and visitation to various authorities, breeders, shows, etc. Add the cost of your home (literally), the loss of your friends and your family whilst you follow your dream…

All for that one, precious goal.
To bring the Czech and Saarloos to people like us!

That’s right, US! The ones who really do care enough to want to share our lives with one of these wonderful creatures, but who are just too scared, stupid, or idle to want to attempt an import ourselves! That’s a lot of time, effort and money well spent on our behalf! Did you honestly expect these puppies to be a few hundred pounds a throw?

Pacino is an established kennel and it’s doing you a service just like any other business. The fee (put in simple terms for the layman) covers an eight week period; from birth to the collection of the puppy. That’s £250 per week for their trouble. Now think long and hard about what services you would need to import a Czech or Saarloos wolfdog from the continent. A vet, solicitor, kennel-hand, MP, trainer? Do you reckon you could get all these for £250 a week?

That £2000 is peace of mind to people like me, it means WE don’t have to jump through the hoops that the Winders have for the past 6 years! They have very kindly put themselves through all the trouble, time wasting, rigmarole and bigotry so that we don’t have to! All the hard work has been done for us BEFORE the pups are born. And it’s Paul and Mandy who have all the worry and hard work to do AFTER the birth too! All WE have to do is feather the nest for the new arrival and play the waiting game till he/she is ready to come home with us!

The Winders are respected breeders. They have spent years researching these breeds so as to offer the puppies the best possible upbringing; and offer US the best possible puppies. Paul and Mandy have striven to put US in the ‘driving seat’ so that we can bring home an eight-week old puppy, not a 10-month old juvenile. That’s a whole extra EIGHT months of quality time spent getting to know your new found friend, and NO transportation / separation trauma to the animal!
Beginning to get the picture?

The Winders need time to grieve over their loss, so why can’t you give it to them?

This should NOT be time when Paul is drawn online to vindicate himself, or his kennel! The loss of Lynx should be the issue here. It’s bad enough losing your companion when you know it’s going to happen, but tragic accidents like this are even harder to accept.

Think how you would feel if your animal was lost through trauma, and SHOW SOME RESPECT!

Gaulirmorn
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Old 28-01-2004, 21:57   #18
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I am in agreement with Gaulimorn. The Winders have my confidence, respect, and sympathy at their loss. I am taking one of Lynx's pups, and I will will be referring to Paul and mandy in the coming months for advice and help. I will also be offering to help them in anyway I can in getting the CzW established in the UK. My opinion is that they are a credit to dog breeding, as they are so approcahable, evidently care for their dogs with regard to who they go to, and are not out to wring every penny out of the litter by asking ridiculously inflated prices.

A breed such as this has and will continue to arouse enormous curiosity from other dog breeders, owners, and the public in general. The owners of the first litter have a considerable responsibility, and debt of gratitude to both the Winders, and Cornelia Keizer - who I am told by Paul will also offer her advice to the new owners of Lynx's puppies as and when it is required. This will all be free, and more to the point, it will be sound advice based on DECADES of experience from the Winders, and Cornelia. I have owned pedigrees before, and paid considerable sums for them, but this is the forst time I have ever felt that I will be getting valid, concerned support. We should thank our lucky stars that we are the fortunate few, and we should be happy to ofer our support to Paul and Mandy in the coming months to help get this marvellous rare breed established with the great reputation it has justifiably earned on the continent.

I feel as though I have been granted a privilege, and given the opportunity to take up a rewarding new hobby - thanks to Paul, Mandy, Cornelia, and Lynx.

Finally consider this: anyone wanting to help Paul and Mandy will probably have the opportunity to breed their animal should they wish. I don't think for a minute that Paul and Mandy are anticipating doing it all alone without wanting to refer to the blood line that is Lynx's legacy. They will be asking us, to get involved. You will make your money back on your initial lay without any problem.

I will be thanking Paul and Mandy profusely on Saturday, and I will be mailing Cornelia Keizer on Saturday, to thank her for helping me to realise a dream.

Any one else who is taking one of Lynx's pups; it would be good to have contact with you, and hopefully we can share our experiences of our new dogs, and maybe pool resources to help Paul and Mandy in the future.

Conor
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Old 29-01-2004, 10:05   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gaulirmorn
I’m normally pretty easy going, but to be frank, this posting has really angered and sickened me …

The Winders are currently going through one of the most traumatic times of their lives, and yet this forum seems more concerned with their pricing policy than showing the sympathy that is due!
Do you honestly think that this is what Paul and Mandy need to be concerned with at present?

If any of you have ever lost a dearly loved animal, then you might just understand what Paul and Mandy are going through. Remember how you felt when your animal died? The loss: the anger: the bitterness?

Well, now add to that the 6 years of hard work that the Winders have endured to get to the point they are at now with this breed! 6 whole years of serious slog, battling red tape, procrastinators, recriminations, bureaucrats and scaremongers. Imagine the months of paperwork, telephone calls, and visitation to various authorities, breeders, shows, etc. Add the cost of your home (literally), the loss of your friends and your family whilst you follow your dream…

All for that one, precious goal.
To bring the Czech and Saarloos to people like us!

That’s right, US! The ones who really do care enough to want to share our lives with one of these wonderful creatures, but who are just too scared, stupid, or idle to want to attempt an import ourselves! That’s a lot of time, effort and money well spent on our behalf! Did you honestly expect these puppies to be a few hundred pounds a throw?

Pacino is an established kennel and it’s doing you a service just like any other business. The fee (put in simple terms for the layman) covers an eight week period; from birth to the collection of the puppy. That’s £250 per week for their trouble. Now think long and hard about what services you would need to import a Czech or Saarloos wolfdog from the continent. A vet, solicitor, kennel-hand, MP, trainer? Do you reckon you could get all these for £250 a week?

That £2000 is peace of mind to people like me, it means WE don’t have to jump through the hoops that the Winders have for the past 6 years! They have very kindly put themselves through all the trouble, time wasting, rigmarole and bigotry so that we don’t have to! All the hard work has been done for us BEFORE the pups are born. And it’s Paul and Mandy who have all the worry and hard work to do AFTER the birth too! All WE have to do is feather the nest for the new arrival and play the waiting game till he/she is ready to come home with us!

The Winders are respected breeders. They have spent years researching these breeds so as to offer the puppies the best possible upbringing; and offer US the best possible puppies. Paul and Mandy have striven to put US in the ‘driving seat’ so that we can bring home an eight-week old puppy, not a 10-month old juvenile. That’s a whole extra EIGHT months of quality time spent getting to know your new found friend, and NO transportation / separation trauma to the animal!
Beginning to get the picture?

The Winders need time to grieve over their loss, so why can’t you give it to them?

This should NOT be time when Paul is drawn online to vindicate himself, or his kennel! The loss of Lynx should be the issue here. It’s bad enough losing your companion when you know it’s going to happen, but tragic accidents like this are even harder to accept.

Think how you would feel if your animal was lost through trauma, and SHOW SOME RESPECT!

Gaulirmorn
thank you for your support i must appologise to everyone for even getting involved with this matter online but i was upsett with the lose of lynx, we still look for her everyday, expecting to see her appear with the puppies, it was unprofessional & very much against my nature , but it has been a long hard slog to get here & we have offered help openly to people asking how to get these dogs to uk. so far no one has made any effort to do it, thank you for your time & support best regards paul & mandy
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Old 29-01-2004, 13:22   #20
gaulirmorn
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Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 17
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Thank you for your kind response, Paul.

I think everyone will agree with me when I say that there is no need to apologise for your words or actions in recent days. It’s impossible to speak from the head when the heart is grieving, no matter how professional you are.

I am certain that no one will think any less of you for it.

And thank you, Conor. Best of luck with your new found bundle!

You'll probably need it!

Gaulirmorn
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