DNA tests and Laboratories

mijke · 09-06-2009, 22:56

A lot of laboratories all over the world are working on several new tests for dog diseases.

Of course labs are commercial, so they are developing tests because there is a market for this.
For all the labs, dog owners and dog clubs are a very interesting group, because they have not real commercial /market goals.

Most of these labs are asking dog owners to send for free EDTA blood to do their investigations.
And when they have developed a test the same dog owners can pay a lot for this test!

Most of the labs (and university's!) are asking 4ml EDTA blood for a genetic test (or for developing a new test).
But to be honest they only need 1 mg to distillate DNA. And the rest of the blood sample they can use for other test of themselves.

So the most attractive deal for a lab is to receive hundreds of blood samples of the same breed of group!! (So I do understand the request of the lab that did ask for blood of 500 CsW's for HD DNA research!)

But groups of owners and breed clubs (who can collect a lot of samples for research purposes), can also negotiate with several labs!

They can offer them a lot of blood samples for free for research for a specific test. And in exchange for this, they can ask for a reduced price (for all owners who did cooperate) when this test is available.

All kind of labs have tests for different diseases. (there is not a lab who have all the tests for a breed) So they can make their own price for a test. Only sometimes there is a competition because they have developed the same test. (for an other breed there was a test for 250 dollar in US and now the same test in Europe is available for 90 euro

)

Some general info:

Certification:
It is very important that taking blood samples for tests and DNA storage is conform international control rules! A vet has always to check the chip number. He has to guarantee that the blood sample he send is really of the mentioned dog.

DNA storage:
Every dog owner can storage DNA material of his dog in a lab for research in future. This can by swabs or EDTA blood sample. For storage for longer time EDTA blood is recommended.

DNA - database:
A DNA-database (archive) is a storage where are collected samples of individual dogs. When it is necessary a lab can determinate DNA of 1 mg of the material.

Dog owners , a DNA database, and tests:
Individual dog owners can send a 4 ml EDTA blood for storage in a DNA database. When a owner wants to test is dog, he can send a request to the storage lab to determinate DNA. They only have give their own registration number and ask this Databank lab to send DNA to a specific lab for a test.
The storage lab can determinate the DNA and send it to another lab for a specific test. (The storage lab will ask money for the determination of the DNA, when it is not a test of their own)

DNA research database:
This is also an archive database. But a group (for example a breed club) is owner of such a data base. They manage this database for the health of a population of a specific breed. They can negotiate with labs for developing of tests. But they can also decide to do a test with blood of the whole storage to see how a disease is spread in the population. (and then they can negotiate with labs for quantum discount!

) With a DNA research archive it is with new health problems also possible to see where it did start in the past.

Number of test that is possible of a blood sample:
Of 4 ml EDTA blood a lab needs a mg to distillate the DNA. The number of genetic tests they can do from 4 ml EDTA blood is about at least 200.

DNA profile:
It is also possible to make a individual DNA profile (specific identification) of a blood sample of a dog. In the past several dog owners did this, and did receive a certificate.
But because of technical development since 2006 there is a new international ISAG norm for DNA profile. So the identification of all dogs who did have a profile for 2007 is not right (and legal) anymore.

And of course we can expect new specific norms in future!

So maybe it is better for owners only to make a profile when they need this for descendant research or covering (conform the norms on that moment)

Maybe it is an idea to create an international CsW DNA research data base.

On this moment I really don't know who can arrange this the best!
Maybe the best is a cooperation of breed clubs, who can negotiate with several labs about possibilities. (before storage it is very important to make a deal with a lab about rights, prices aso)

And later on this cooperation can (as owner) manage this research database for all kind of research and tests for the health of the whole population.
And when they have a lot of blood samples they are very interesting for all kind of labs!!

So they can also negotiate with several labs for quantum discount and prices for tests.

But maybe this is only my personal thinking for a far future !

But till that time I will still test my dogs for several things and I'll try to convince other owners to do the same!

Because that is the only way to see how diseases are spread in a breed.

Juniorwolf · 10-06-2009, 09:48

Once again, thanks for info

I hope more people will join your idea about an international CSW DNA research database, to me it sounds very interesting.

Greetings Rolf

michaelundinaeichhorn · 10-06-2009, 11:54

Well, finally I got through to the person working at the HD-DNA research. It is done by the Veterinary University in Hannover. They do DNA-Blood-storages at their institute the price per blood sample is only 7,-- Euros. At the moment they have quite a lot of research done on dogs HD, Epilepsy, Cardiomyopathy, ED, Genetic Eye Diseases and so on.
Going back to the HD, they want for a start 24 Blood samples, 12 HD A, 12 HD C - E of dogs that are as less related as possible. When we manage to get that far they will talk with us about how to carry on. It may be possible to get this amount in Germany but I would like to ask for international help because the dogs should be of a wider genetic range than we have here. We will at least need 100 HD A and 100 HD C - E to do the research and the price could be (that has to be talked about) as high as 300 Euros per dog! There are possibilities to get money out of research funds.
So please if anybody is interesting in joining the research please get in contact with me: [email protected]
If I see the possibility to get at least 200 dogs I will try to get the best price possible. At least we should try to get a Blood-storage there for further research.

Here are further informations: http://www.tierzucht-hannover.de/hd.html
it is on German but I will start to translate it in English this evening and put it into the forum.

Ina

Mikael · 10-06-2009, 16:55

Thanks Mijke and Ina

Ina, Did they need the x-ray photo as well or just the official result and blood ???

Can they do the HD and ED at the same time ???

Do they have a min month time for the x-ray result, as min 18 month for a female and 24 month for a male to get a true and exact result and DNA test ???

Is there any interest from other owners to do eye DNA tests as well ???
And if one have a DNA eye test, is it valid (official) for life and no need to do new eye tests as PRA and more... before every litter ???

Best regards / Mikael

michaelundinaeichhorn · 10-06-2009, 17:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Thanks Mijke and Ina

Ina, Did they need the x-ray photo as well or just the official result and blood ???

They need the official result - if possible the detailed one - or the x-ray, plus the pedigree and the blood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Can they do the HD and ED at the same time ???

There is a working test for GSD that has to be varified for other breeds, the test exists, it´s the same like with the Dwarf test. They work on a test for ED and Epilepsy, when this exists they could do all on the same time. It is possible that I can arrange ED as well but I think we have not enough dogs for that, if your dog has an ED-result like mine do it is surely good to send it with the HD stuff because they could use it someday and they will store the blood.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Do they have a min month time for the x-ray result, as min 18 month for a female and 24 month for a male to get a true and exact result ???

They didn´t mention that, they wanted an official result.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mikael

Is there any interest from other owners to do eye DNA tests as well ???
And if one have a DNA eye test, is it valid for life and no need to do new eye tests as PRA and more... before every litter ???

Best regards / Mikael

The eye test is future and I don´t think we have enough dogs for that there are only very few dogs with Glaukoma I know of.
What the breed organisations use the tests for is on their behalf. You still need an HD-x-ray at the moment but you can use the genetic test for judging possible pairings, find out HD-free dogs that have a high amount of HD-genes and so on

Mikael · 10-06-2009, 17:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ina

It is possible that I can arrange ED as well but I think we have not enough dogs for that, if your dog has an ED-result like mine do it is surely good to send it with the HD stuff because they could use it someday and they will store the blood

.

OK thanks

I have 0 tests this far as Hronec is under 24 month, but next month he is and I will do the HD and ED...

When do you think they/you will be ready to receive the blood samples and x-rays... I think I will get my official results first after the summer...

Regards / Mikael

michaelundinaeichhorn · 10-06-2009, 17:58

I will translate the official homepage with the forms you need to send to them. This whole test-validation will take more time than summer so don´t worry.
But anyway there is no sense in everybody sending everything directly to the laboratory without coordination what was the reason for asking people who are interested to contact me. Because the lines and pedigrees are important and they want this database readyly collected.
It seems that at least one German Club started thinking about coordinating the datas and work for this test now so if this happens to be there will be a ready computerprogram for the database that can be used what would make the things easier.
If not I will follow Mijkes example (who already offered her help) and do it by myself what might be faster in the beginning and gets things moving as we could see with the Dwarf test and I don´t want to wait any longer, this is not necessary at this point, they need blood of different dogs and lines that´s all.

Ina

canislupus · 10-06-2009, 19:37

The german club already started collecting detailed informations and making plans how to manage the datas and the validation !!!

Tanja

michaelundinaeichhorn · 10-06-2009, 20:02

That is nice to hear now after talking about it so many times and giving you the informations of the university

. I will send my collected datas to you as soon as you give me the adress to give it to.
At least something is moving. Do you want me to translate everything in English or are you doing it?
So it is still possible to contact me as said before, I will make sure that everything goes to the right adresses and places.

Nebelwölfe · 11-06-2009, 00:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

That is nice to hear now after talking about it so many times and giving you the informations of the university

.

In fact - the German Club is involved with it since it was known in Germany, that tests are done - thus as long as you are involved in it

. You just got the actual informations one day earlier than we got

, since Tanja tried to call the university up the last few days - but didn't have time to call yesterday

A lot of information we had gathered already from the university's website - we just hadn't talked to the person in charge personally so far.

You talked about it on the Englisch Forum - but neither on the German ones nor with any of the clubs - although the tests are in Germany and the German dogs should be involved in first line for the 24 blood tests?

I think, that this is a big project, which for all the breeders and the clubs need to work together to get reasonable results - so that we can reach something useful. It is no sense in only a few single persons acting in such a big project as HD-tests - it will not bring us the needed success.

Besides the 200 dogs that are needed for the examinations, the results of all the testings, also the ones that have to be done furtheron, will have to be handeled in a trustworthy way and recorded in a database, so the breeders and breeding commissions do have the neccessary informations.

It is a project, which will have to be set up internationally, if it should be of value for the whole race in all countries.

Petra

Hanka · 11-06-2009, 06:10

hello Ina,
It is a pity, you don´t know price (best price

) in this moment. I could offer it to all czech owners too. But when I tell them 300Euro in this moment, they will not want to do it. If the price will be better, I think some poeple will want to do it. I can offer my own dogs too, but not 300

.
Hanka

michaelundinaeichhorn · 11-06-2009, 09:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka

hello Ina,
It is a pity, you don´t know price (best price

) in this moment. I could offer it to all czech owners too. But when I tell them 300Euro in this moment, they will not want to do it. If the price will be better, I think some poeple will want to do it. I can offer my own dogs too, but not 300

.
Hanka

Hi Hanka,

I know this is a problem and I already talked about it to the University. There is the possibility to get money out of research funds (this would be a good point for Clubs to care about) and it may be possible to get a cheaper price.
But DNA-testing is expensive especially when you talk about getting a new test. At this point they want only 24 blood samples to have a look at it, and I think not at least to find out if the people of this breed are caring enough to get things running. To store a blood sample there costs only 7,-- Euros what is not astronomic. When we have 24 dogs for this they will tell us the price for the whole evaluation and for the later on tests - again there is no test now for our breed, only for GSD it is the same situation like with the Dwarf test some month ago.
I think the best way will be to start to collect people that are willing to join in the project, then talk to the laboratory again showing that we are now able to do the first step and ask them what costs there will be coming. We can do that without sending the blood samples already, then we will be able to get more informations about how to carry on and what costs will occure apart from 7 Euro.

Ina

michaelundinaeichhorn · 11-06-2009, 09:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlepeet

In fact - the German Club is involved with it since it was known in Germany, that tests are done - thus as long as you are involved in it

. You just got the actual informations one day earlier than we got

, since Tanja tried to call the university up the last few days - but didn't have time to call yesterday

A lot of information we had gathered already from the university's website - we just hadn't talked to the person in charge personally so far.

You talked about it on the Englisch Forum - but neither on the German ones nor with any of the clubs - although the tests are in Germany and the German dogs should be involved in first line for the 24 blood tests?

Sorry, but this is unneccessary and not in favor of the breed, you all knew I was going to get this moving and didn´t inform me, Tanja even did answer on me in this Forum. I think we all should work together on this and the most important thing communicate! Who did what is unimportant politics.
And why should the German dogs only be involved on the first tests? The more different lines the better! As I already told you did the person responsible for this test see no major problem in foreign HD-tests who should know best. At least when we come to the 200 dogs we need international help.

Quote:

Originally Posted by littlepeet

I think, that this is a big project, which for all the breeders and the clubs need to work together to get reasonable results - so that we can reach something useful. It is no sense in only a few single persons acting in such a big project as HD-tests - it will not bring us the needed success.

Besides the 200 dogs that are needed for the examinations, the results of all the testings, also the ones that have to be done furtheron, will have to be handeled in a trustworthy way and recorded in a database, so the breeders and breeding commissions do have the neccessary informations.

It is a project, which will have to be set up internationally, if it should be of value for the whole race in all countries.

Petra

As I already told you on ther German Club Forum: The University is handling the data and is known as extremly trustworthy and everybody who needs it will get the informations. We now at the moment talk about creating a test for this breed that doesn´t exist till know. It is a big project that needs help of every owner and breeder worldwide it is as simple as that and when this test exists the breeding clubs are asked to work together and find a possibility to share the information and use it for breeding programs and not at least think about finances.
When you are willing to use the Club database for gathering all informations that would be great because it is a terrible lot of work without a programm for one person and I don´t yell for it. But if this is used for Club politics of a small Club with little to say or decide within the National Kennel Club I am concerned about sharing information, it obviously didn´t work till this point already. But as I told you before I will give every information needed that is going to my adress to you to create the database needed for the test as soon as you give me the place to send it too.

Ina

saschia · 11-06-2009, 11:30

Hi Ina, as I told before, I am willing to get blood of Frei collected and send it to you or anybody responsible in this effort. So you can count on me in the first step. But the 300 Euros would be too much for me. Aren't there any fundings for veterinary research available? I mean research of the genetics of such diseases as dysplasia or epilepsy have not only commercial value, but also humane; in medical research a lot of pressure is put on well-being of experimental animals, so good of pets should also be supported.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 11-06-2009, 11:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by saschia

Hi Ina, as I told before, I am willing to get blood of Frei collected and send it to you or anybody responsible in this effort. So you can count on me in the first step. But the 300 Euros would be too much for me. Aren't there any fundings for veterinary research available? I mean research of the genetics of such diseases as dysplasia or epilepsy have not only commercial value, but also humane; in medical research a lot of pressure is put on well-being of experimental animals, so good of pets should also be supported.

Hello Saschia, yes their are possiblities to get money out of research funds I directly asked for them because I know that the 300 Euros are a problem for anyone. I think it will be possible to get some money or discounts but before we can talk about money there has to be a concrete proof that there will be enough dogs for a research.
So if the wolfdog world can count of you, great!

Greetings
Ina

mijke · 11-06-2009, 12:25

Thanks for all the info!

Because I know that groups of several breeds did get problems with research labs and university’s (about rights, prices aso) I still have some comments and questions:

Test
Of course I will cooperate with such research (like I did tell you before). But not with € 300 for each dog!

Has the university already a validated HD test for an other breed?
Is this the price of € 300 for an (already for CsW validated) real test?
Or is this a price for research and validation of the test for CsW?

Because for me it would be crazy to pay as an owner such a price for research!
For example:
In other countries there are also labs and university’s working on DNA test for HD. And theses research labs are asking EDTA blood but owners do not have to pay for research!
The university Maisons-Alfort in France is working on a DNA test for PRA special for CsW, owners can send blood, but do not have to pay for research.
Before the dwarfism test was validated for CsW, all owners of carriers could send EDTA blood for free for the research.
And only when the test was real validated and working for CsW, the owners has to pay for the test (about € 100)

Storage
When people pay € 7 for storage a blood sample it is a low price
But what are the arrangements with the lab about this storage??

For example:

For how long is the storage?
Who is the owner of the blood sample? The owner? The group that manage the data? The lab?
And who can decide for what tests the blood is used in future?
Which other test this university research lab has for CsW breed?
Can an owner or the group (who manage the data) decide which test will be done with this blood?
When an owner or the manage group wants to do a test of this storage blood in an other lab, what do they count for distillate DNA and sending to an other lab?

My suggestion for an international DNA research database for CsW breed, was based on an international group (of breeding clubs) that can manage this database for the health of the whole population.

But also to provide that owners have to send blood for every new test, or has to pay a lot for research or tests!

When an international “manage group” has a lot of blood samples of the same breed in storage, they are very interesting for several labs!!
So such an int. group can negotiate with labs for developing/research of tests. And then they can negotiate with labs for quantum discount for tests!

And I hope the German initiative will work out in this way!

Juniorwolf · 11-06-2009, 12:58

Mijke thanks a lot for your last post

I had some of the same questions and think your idea sounds very sensible and gives my full support to this...
Ofcourse I will be happy to send blood samples too, but only when the best solution have been found and people can agree on working internationally together on this solution

I have already send bloodsample for Pituitary dwarfism and are now waiting for answer and in the beginning of this week I made eyetest(17 different eye diseases incl. PRA) for both of my dogs and they were both free

...but I would appreciate a DNA test for both PRA and HD/ED as well.

Greetings Rolf

11-06-2009, 13:29

I don't even have a CsV yet, but I just want to say that am continually impressed with everyone involved in developing this breed. There are so many medical and genetic things we know these days, and it's wonderful to see people at the birth of a new breed taking advantage of everything science has to offer. I truly believe that this is the way people should be developing new breeds in the future, to avoid the mistakes made with purebred dogs in the past.

So, thank you for all your hard work!

michaelundinaeichhorn · 11-06-2009, 14:43

Hello Mijke,
thank you for your post, you are I think at the moment the most experienced person for this questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

Thanks for all the info!

Because I know that groups of several breeds did get problems with research labs and university’s (about rights, prices aso) I still have some comments and questions:

Test
Of course I will cooperate with such research (like I did tell you before). But not with € 300 for each dog!

Has the university already a validated HD test for an other breed?
Is this the price of € 300 for an (already for CsW validated) real test?
Or is this a price for research and validation of the test for CsW?

There is a validated test for GSD they evaluated and that is working.

I also think 300 Euros is definetly too much for most of us. The lab didn´t tell me a price, I wanted to have at least some information and asked what could be the highest price we talk about, they themself did mention directly the possibilty of funds and said it is something that can be talked about.
They will start to discuss prices when they have proof that we are able to get the first 24 dogs (we all know there is often much enthusiasm in the beginning but nobody left in the end) and on their homepage they are looking for blood samples for HD, ED, Epilepsy.
So I started with asking for dogs, when we have enough for the first step of 24 we will be able to get more answers and I don´t think we should send any blood samples before this question is cleared. but I will try to get more answers tomorrow because talking about ist there occured more questions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

For example:
In other countries there are also labs and university’s working on DNA test for HD. And theses research labs are asking EDTA blood but owners do not have to pay for research!
The university Maisons-Alfort in France is working on a DNA test for PRA special for CsW, owners can send blood, but do not have to pay for research.
Before the dwarfism test was validated for CsW, all owners of carriers could send EDTA blood for free for the research.
And only when the test was real validated and working for CsW, the owners has to pay for the test (about € 100)

This is good to know and it also shows the problem of international communication. I think we should in general look for dogs and owners that want to join in. HD is one of the main problems and to have a test would be very good. If we have in general a group of persons that are willing to undergo all this we can start to ask the different labs and look for possiblity, working tests and prices.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

Storage
When people pay € 7 for storage a blood sample it is a low price
But what are the arrangements with the lab about this storage??

For example:

For how long is the storage?
Who is the owner of the blood sample? The owner? The group that manage the data? The lab?
And who can decide for what tests the blood is used in future?
Which other test this university research lab has for CsW breed?
Can an owner or the group (who manage the data) decide which test will be done with this blood?

The 7 Euros are for storage, DNA-Isolation and the management of the samples, there are no further costs for that. It should be possible to use this database for every genetic test provided. I will ask for ED and Epilepsy and of course for the rest of your questions.

They work the following way: With the data they get and the DNA-data they form a database for the breed, if it is representativ they look for the markers and make a markerset for a genom breeding valuation of the dogs, then they varify this markerset again on a group of dogs and build up a selction program for the breeding clubs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

My suggestion for an international DNA research database for CsW breed, was based on an international group (of breeding clubs) that can manage this database for the health of the whole population.

But also to provide that owners have to send blood for every new test, or has to pay a lot for research or tests!

When an international “manage group” has a lot of blood samples of the same breed in storage, they are very interesting for several labs!!
So such an int. group can negotiate with labs for developing/research of tests. And then they can negotiate with labs for quantum discount for tests!

And I hope the German initiative will work out in this way!

As far as I did understand the program this would be possible with this University and they won´t care about which country and would work out the management for the Clubs. But anyway this would have to be done in a lab, no breeding club can make a storage itself. So this is at least a question of which lab would be best looking at the costs and the tests they provide and the cooperation they offer. So maybe for a start it would be a good idea if every known lab would be asked for this question. And I personally think it will not be possible to get this working with Clubs alone there should be a scientific management to prevent politic problems, we should be realistic in this.
I think Hannover is a good suggestion but if we find anything better, great! I don´t care which country.
But as far as I know at this moment Hannover is the only one with a ready validated test for HD.
And of course to ask for all of this we would need to know about of how many dogs we can offer.

Ina

michaelundinaeichhorn · 12-06-2009, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by mijke

Has the university already a validated HD test for an other breed?

There is a validated test for GSD

Is this the price of € 300 for an (already for CsW validated) real test?

The price for the 24 dogs is 7 Euros for the storage from the 200 on it is 300 per dog

Or is this a price for research and validation of the test for CsW?

Because for me it would be crazy to pay as an owner such a price for research!

The laboratory told me that is the price they have to take for research but there is a good chance to get to funds
For example:
In other countries there are also labs and university’s working on DNA test for HD. And theses research labs are asking EDTA blood but owners do not have to pay for research!
The university Maisons-Alfort in France is working on a DNA test for PRA special for CsW, owners can send blood, but do not have to pay for research.
Before the dwarfism test was validated for CsW, all owners of carriers could send EDTA blood for free for the research.
And only when the test was real validated and working for CsW, the owners has to pay for the test (about € 100)
German Universities have a strong lack of money
Storage
When people pay € 7 for storage a blood sample it is a low price
But what are the arrangements with the lab about this storage??

For example:

For how long is the storage?

As long as we want

Who is the owner of the blood sample? The owner? The group that manage the data? The lab?

The lab

And who can decide for what tests the blood is used in future?

The lab but you can say you don´t want your blood to be used for anything else

Which other test this university research lab has for CsW breed?

interesting ones are at the moment ED and Epilepsy, the procedure is the same

Can an owner or the group (who manage the data) decide which test will be done with this blood?

Yes, you can say that by sending the blood in the beginning

When an owner or the manage group wants to do a test of this storage blood in an other lab, what do they count for distillate DNA and sending to an other lab?

It is a no problem to send necessary samples to other labs to moderate costs, they couldn´t tell me the cost directly but it isn´t much.

My suggestion for an international DNA research database for CsW breed, was based on an international group (of breeding clubs) that can manage this database for the health of the whole population.

But also to provide that owners have to send blood for every new test, or has to pay a lot for research or tests!

You don´t have to send in new blood but if you want to have any new results

When an international “manage group” has a lot of blood samples of the same breed in storage, they are very interesting for several labs!!
So such an int. group can negotiate with labs for developing/research of tests. And then they can negotiate with labs for quantum discount for tests!

And I hope the German initiative will work out in this way!

As I got to know the last days the German Club is working on this and they want to talk about costs and procedure themself so we can wait and see.
But I think in general it would be a good idea if everybody knowing about labs that do research and databases should ask them the same questions or things will simply take to long and we all should keep in touch and talk about results.
And still it would be good to know who is interested in this programm. I already got contacted by several people doing a great job, we should carry on with this it will speed up things a lot when we got the lab fixed.

Ina

09-06-2009, 22:56	#1
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	DNA tests and Laboratories A lot of laboratories all over the world are working on several new tests for dog diseases. Of course labs are commercial, so they are developing tests because there is a market for this. For all the labs, dog owners and dog clubs are a very interesting group, because they have not real commercial /market goals. Most of these labs are asking dog owners to send for free EDTA blood to do their investigations. And when they have developed a test the same dog owners can pay a lot for this test! Most of the labs (and university's!) are asking 4ml EDTA blood for a genetic test (or for developing a new test). But to be honest they only need 1 mg to distillate DNA. And the rest of the blood sample they can use for other test of themselves. So the most attractive deal for a lab is to receive hundreds of blood samples of the same breed of group!! (So I do understand the request of the lab that did ask for blood of 500 CsW's for HD DNA research!) But groups of owners and breed clubs (who can collect a lot of samples for research purposes), can also negotiate with several labs! They can offer them a lot of blood samples for free for research for a specific test. And in exchange for this, they can ask for a reduced price (for all owners who did cooperate) when this test is available. All kind of labs have tests for different diseases. (there is not a lab who have all the tests for a breed) So they can make their own price for a test. Only sometimes there is a competition because they have developed the same test. (for an other breed there was a test for 250 dollar in US and now the same test in Europe is available for 90 euro) Some general info: Certification: It is very important that taking blood samples for tests and DNA storage is conform international control rules! A vet has always to check the chip number. He has to guarantee that the blood sample he send is really of the mentioned dog. DNA storage: Every dog owner can storage DNA material of his dog in a lab for research in future. This can by swabs or EDTA blood sample. For storage for longer time EDTA blood is recommended. DNA - database: A DNA-database (archive) is a storage where are collected samples of individual dogs. When it is necessary a lab can determinate DNA of 1 mg of the material. Dog owners , a DNA database, and tests: Individual dog owners can send a 4 ml EDTA blood for storage in a DNA database. When a owner wants to test is dog, he can send a request to the storage lab to determinate DNA. They only have give their own registration number and ask this Databank lab to send DNA to a specific lab for a test. The storage lab can determinate the DNA and send it to another lab for a specific test. (The storage lab will ask money for the determination of the DNA, when it is not a test of their own) DNA research database: This is also an archive database. But a group (for example a breed club) is owner of such a data base. They manage this database for the health of a population of a specific breed. They can negotiate with labs for developing of tests. But they can also decide to do a test with blood of the whole storage to see how a disease is spread in the population. (and then they can negotiate with labs for quantum discount!) With a DNA research archive it is with new health problems also possible to see where it did start in the past. Number of test that is possible of a blood sample: Of 4 ml EDTA blood a lab needs a mg to distillate the DNA. The number of genetic tests they can do from 4 ml EDTA blood is about at least 200. DNA profile: It is also possible to make a individual DNA profile (specific identification) of a blood sample of a dog. In the past several dog owners did this, and did receive a certificate. But because of technical development since 2006 there is a new international ISAG norm for DNA profile. So the identification of all dogs who did have a profile for 2007 is not right (and legal) anymore. And of course we can expect new specific norms in future! So maybe it is better for owners only to make a profile when they need this for descendant research or covering (conform the norms on that moment) Maybe it is an idea to create an international CsW DNA research data base. On this moment I really don't know who can arrange this the best! Maybe the best is a cooperation of breed clubs, who can negotiate with several labs about possibilities. (before storage it is very important to make a deal with a lab about rights, prices aso) And later on this cooperation can (as owner) manage this research database for all kind of research and tests for the health of the whole population. And when they have a lot of blood samples they are very interesting for all kind of labs!! So they can also negotiate with several labs for quantum discount and prices for tests. But maybe this is only my personal thinking for a far future ! But till that time I will still test my dogs for several things and I'll try to convince other owners to do the same! Because that is the only way to see how diseases are spread in a breed. __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

10-06-2009, 16:55	#4
Mikael Scandinavian Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 1,089	Thanks Mijke and Ina Ina, Did they need the x-ray photo as well or just the official result and blood ??? Can they do the HD and ED at the same time ??? Do they have a min month time for the x-ray result, as min 18 month for a female and 24 month for a male to get a true and exact result and DNA test ??? Is there any interest from other owners to do eye DNA tests as well ??? And if one have a DNA eye test, is it valid (official) for life and no need to do new eye tests as PRA and more... before every litter ??? Best regards / Mikael __________________ _________________________________________________ Hronec, Rasty, Zilja Kennel, Wolfdog of Sweden* http://kennelwolfdogofsweden.vpsite.se/Home.html http://www.facebook.com/pages/Wolfdo...53067971392916 Last edited by Mikael; 10-06-2009 at 17:03.

10-06-2009, 19:37	#8
canislupus Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: 33165 Ebbinghausen/Paderborn Posts: 400	The german club already started collecting detailed informations and making plans how to manage the datas and the validation !!! Tanja __________________ Alles wird gut! http://www.mala-bosorka.de

10-06-2009, 20:02	#9
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	That is nice to hear now after talking about it so many times and giving you the informations of the university. I will send my collected datas to you as soon as you give me the adress to give it to. At least something is moving. Do you want me to translate everything in English or are you doing it? So it is still possible to contact me as said before, I will make sure that everything goes to the right adresses and places.

11-06-2009, 11:30	#14
saschia Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bratislava Posts: 936	Hi Ina, as I told before, I am willing to get blood of Frei collected and send it to you or anybody responsible in this effort. So you can count on me in the first step. But the 300 Euros would be too much for me. Aren't there any fundings for veterinary research available? I mean research of the genetics of such diseases as dysplasia or epilepsy have not only commercial value, but also humane; in medical research a lot of pressure is put on well-being of experimental animals, so good of pets should also be supported. __________________ Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws

10-06-2009, 09:48	#2
Juniorwolf Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 575	Once again, thanks for info I hope more people will join your idea about an international CSW DNA research database, to me it sounds very interesting. Greetings Rolf

10-06-2009, 11:54	#3
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Well, finally I got through to the person working at the HD-DNA research. It is done by the Veterinary University in Hannover. They do DNA-Blood-storages at their institute the price per blood sample is only 7,-- Euros. At the moment they have quite a lot of research done on dogs HD, Epilepsy, Cardiomyopathy, ED, Genetic Eye Diseases and so on. Going back to the HD, they want for a start 24 Blood samples, 12 HD A, 12 HD C - E of dogs that are as less related as possible. When we manage to get that far they will talk with us about how to carry on. It may be possible to get this amount in Germany but I would like to ask for international help because the dogs should be of a wider genetic range than we have here. We will at least need 100 HD A and 100 HD C - E to do the research and the price could be (that has to be talked about) as high as 300 Euros per dog! There are possibilities to get money out of research funds. So please if anybody is interesting in joining the research please get in contact with me: [email protected] If I see the possibility to get at least 200 dogs I will try to get the best price possible. At least we should try to get a Blood-storage there for further research. Here are further informations: http://www.tierzucht-hannover.de/hd.html it is on German but I will start to translate it in English this evening and put it into the forum. Ina

10-06-2009, 17:58	#7
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I will translate the official homepage with the forms you need to send to them. This whole test-validation will take more time than summer so don´t worry. But anyway there is no sense in everybody sending everything directly to the laboratory without coordination what was the reason for asking people who are interested to contact me. Because the lines and pedigrees are important and they want this database readyly collected. It seems that at least one German Club started thinking about coordinating the datas and work for this test now so if this happens to be there will be a ready computerprogram for the database that can be used what would make the things easier. If not I will follow Mijkes example (who already offered her help) and do it by myself what might be faster in the beginning and gets things moving as we could see with the Dwarf test and I don´t want to wait any longer, this is not necessary at this point, they need blood of different dogs and lines that´s all. Ina

11-06-2009, 06:10	#11
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	hello Ina, It is a pity, you don´t know price (best price ) in this moment. I could offer it to all czech owners too. But when I tell them 300Euro in this moment, they will not want to do it. If the price will be better, I think some poeple will want to do it. I can offer my own dogs too, but not 300 . Hanka

11-06-2009, 12:25	#16
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	Thanks for all the info! Because I know that groups of several breeds did get problems with research labs and university’s (about rights, prices aso) I still have some comments and questions: Test Of course I will cooperate with such research (like I did tell you before). But not with € 300 for each dog! Has the university already a validated HD test for an other breed? Is this the price of € 300 for an (already for CsW validated) real test? Or is this a price for research and validation of the test for CsW? Because for me it would be crazy to pay as an owner such a price for research! For example: In other countries there are also labs and university’s working on DNA test for HD. And theses research labs are asking EDTA blood but owners do not have to pay for research! The university Maisons-Alfort in France is working on a DNA test for PRA special for CsW, owners can send blood, but do not have to pay for research. Before the dwarfism test was validated for CsW, all owners of carriers could send EDTA blood for free for the research. And only when the test was real validated and working for CsW, the owners has to pay for the test (about € 100) Storage When people pay € 7 for storage a blood sample it is a low price But what are the arrangements with the lab about this storage?? For example: For how long is the storage? Who is the owner of the blood sample? The owner? The group that manage the data? The lab? And who can decide for what tests the blood is used in future? Which other test this university research lab has for CsW breed? Can an owner or the group (who manage the data) decide which test will be done with this blood? When an owner or the manage group wants to do a test of this storage blood in an other lab, what do they count for distillate DNA and sending to an other lab? My suggestion for an international DNA research database for CsW breed, was based on an international group (of breeding clubs) that can manage this database for the health of the whole population. But also to provide that owners have to send blood for every new test, or has to pay a lot for research or tests! When an international “manage group” has a lot of blood samples of the same breed in storage, they are very interesting for several labs!! So such an int. group can negotiate with labs for developing/research of tests. And then they can negotiate with labs for quantum discount for tests! And I hope the German initiative will work out in this way! __________________ Vriendelijke groeten, Mijke PS: I am not a moderator anymore!!

11-06-2009, 12:58	#17
Juniorwolf Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 575	Mijke thanks a lot for your last post I had some of the same questions and think your idea sounds very sensible and gives my full support to this... Ofcourse I will be happy to send blood samples too, but only when the best solution have been found and people can agree on working internationally together on this solution I have already send bloodsample for Pituitary dwarfism and are now waiting for answer and in the beginning of this week I made eyetest(17 different eye diseases incl. PRA) for both of my dogs and they were both free ...but I would appreciate a DNA test for both PRA and HD/ED as well. Greetings Rolf

11-06-2009, 13:29	#18
Vicky Guest Posts: n/a	I don't even have a CsV yet, but I just want to say that am continually impressed with everyone involved in developing this breed. There are so many medical and genetic things we know these days, and it's wonderful to see people at the birth of a new breed taking advantage of everything science has to offer. I truly believe that this is the way people should be developing new breeds in the future, to avoid the mistakes made with purebred dogs in the past. So, thank you for all your hard work!