Bigger do not mean better

[admin]

Last time I received several emails from stud dog owners saying me to promote their dogs more than other males (even with marking them will more visible colour) because their dogs are... HIGHER than other stud dogs (have 74 or 75 cm at withers.

Because it seems to be a kind of "plague" I would like to write the answer on the official way - I will not mark ANY dogs more visible than other dogs. First because there is no such possibility. Second - because such dogs are... less typical than the smaller males.

The standard says two things:

GENERAL APPEARANCE:
Firm type in constitution. Above average size with rectangular frame.

and

HEIGHT AND WEIGHT
Height at Withers:
Dogs at least 65 cm
Bitches at least 60 cm
Weight:
Dogs at least 26 kg
Bitches at least 20 kg

It means (and it was so from the begging of this breed) that the typical Czechoslovakian measure:

65-70cm for a male
60-65cm for a female

Bigger dogs are accepted and will be not disqualified but such dogs are overgrown (can be described as "too big") and because of it are tolerated but not prefered.
The goal of this breed is not to breed dogs as high (or as heavy) as possible. But to breed dogs as typical as possible but also having the typical size for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.

[odisseo]

sorry... in your writing I don't find the word "proportions"... I think it is a useful word...
I am tall 178 cm

[Martab]

I am pretty surprised about the requests you received and I believe you were right in claryfing this point.

...but...

this is the first time I hear about a "maximum" high for this breed (even though you say that higher dogs are "tolerated")

Where does it come from the idea that the typical height is 65-70 for males and 60-65 for females?
Is there any document by any Club stating that?
Or it is just your personal opinion? Or the opinion of some others?
I am asking this because some Judges in Italy write "too big" in some tall dogs judgements, and since now I thought it was a completely wrong thing.

Visot che il forum è in italiano io risponderò in italiano

Marta credo che l'admin intendesse dire , e mi trova pure d'accordo , che alcuni puntano sull'altezza perdendo molto in altre qualità , credo mediamente che i clc molto alti risultano poi un pò grossolani ,come si dice, non rispecchiando le caratterstiche del CLC

Quindi il fatto di aver un CLC alto non vuol dire aver un CLC più bello di altri

Poi magari ci sta pure quello alto 75 e perfettamente in standard, giusto nelle proporzioni e non grossolano , ma credo che siano più una rarità.

Beh meglio di me ti potranno rispondere gli allevatori forse :-)

[maghettodelboschetto]

Originally Posted by Martab

Where does it come from the idea that the typical height is 65-70 for males and 60-65 for females?
Is there any document by any Club stating that?

I like big too
but in the bonitation report the standard is 65-70 and 60-65.
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/articles/918.html

[Martab]

Ah sì Claudia concordo perfettamente con quello che dici, e mi fa anzi piuttosto sorridere che gli/le siano arrivate delle richieste del genere!

Mi (gli/le) chiedevo solo, visto che parlava di "altezze tipiche" dando delle misure ben chiare se non ci fosse qualche sorta di regola o quantomeno "orientamento" in questo senso da parte dei club stranieri
Ma questo perché mi sembrava che volesse dire qualcosa di più, e anche perché mi piacerebbe sapere se questi giudici quando assegnano un "troppo alto" lo fanno perché effettivamente, anche se nello standard non c'è scritto, esiste una "altezza tipica" scritta da qualche parte o meno

Si Marta hai ragione ad indagare e chiedere delucidazioni, io credo che lo si faccia per prassi e come sa poi...

[Martab]

Originally Posted by maghettodelboschetto

I like big too
but in the bonitation report the standard is 65-70 and 60-65.
http://www.wolfdog.org/ita/articles/918.html

Non lo avevo mai notato...ma non credo sia per dire che è extra taglia, non credo incida sul risultato bonitazione...in realtà non ho mai visto usare questa casellina...all'estero fanno anche questa distinzione, qualcuno lo sa?

[maghettodelboschetto]

Originally Posted by Martab

Non lo avevo mai notato...ma non credo sia per dire che è extra taglia, non credo incida sul risultato bonitazione...in realtà non ho mai visto usare questa casellina...all'estero fanno anche questa distinzione, qualcuno lo sa?

Ci sono i cani bassi, i cani nella media e i cani alti.

da stabilire se i cani alti sono fuori standard...

Nin zò, a me i cani alti piacciono una cifra!

[Martab]

Originally Posted by maghettodelboschetto

da stabilire se i cani alti sono fuori standard...

Quello lo decide lo standard, e sono sicura che la risposta è no.
Se fosse alto meno del minimo previsto dallo standard nella bonitazione un cane credo risulterebbe un P14, sbaglio? Se invece è superiore ai 65/70 non viene ritenuto neanche una imperfezione

[admin]

Originally Posted by Martab

Is there any document by any Club stating that?
Or it is just your personal opinion? Or the opinion of some others?

No, it is not wrong... I also asked some "breed gurus" to answer the same question as I was also interested in the same topic some time ago. And the answer I get is that for many years there was the minimum (60cm for females and 65 for males) AND the maximum (65cm for females and 70cm for males) for a long time. The changes were made because there were pretty many dogs which were under the minimum size and to make the breed taller there maximum was removed. I also know that there is the possibility that if there will be to many "too big" dogs the standard can be changed again and the maximum can be set again (it means "bigger than 70cm for males and bigger than 65cm for females will be a disqualification fault).

Because of it you can see on the bonitation card that only males from 65 to 70 cm and females from 60 till 65cm can get the code As - it means "standard size".

Originally Posted by Martab

I am asking this because some Judges in Italy write "too big" in some tall dogs judgements, and since now I thought it was a completely wrong thing.

No, it is right. Czechoslovakian have the minimum written in the breed standard. But they have also maximum size set there. They are described a dogs "Above average size". It is "cynological speech" - size for average size breeds sets maximum of 60cm for females and 65 cm for males. Best examples are Belgian Shepherd Dog and German Shepherd Dog. Large size breeds have more that 65cm (females) and over 70cm (males) - best example: Kuvasz, Komondor.
Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs are places between them as they are a breed which is "ABOVE the average size" (but still not a large/big dog breed).

[admin]

Originally Posted by odisseo

sorry... in your writing I don't find the word "proportions"... I think it is a useful word...

Yes, but still it is hard to describe a nice dog with good look and nice proportion and the size of 30cm to be a Czechoslovakian Wolfdog.

Also agree that a 72cm dog with good proportion can be better than 69cm dog with bad proportion. But a 68cm dog with good proportion is more "typical" than a 72cm dog with good proportion.

[Martab]

Thanks a lot for your answers

[odisseo]

thank U 4 your explanation

[maghettodelboschetto]

Denghiu'! Ma ve lo immaginate che figata un clc alto come un irish wolfhound!?

[pariduzz]

Thank you, probably after this explanation the people in Italy will not say to me that a male of 67cm is small, or maybe they will say it but they know that are in wrong!