British Kennel Club Recognition

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

Are you now encouraging tupacs to breed her cross in the U.K. forgive me but I was sure you was against this? i am..why encourage breeding why not just encourage more understanding of the breedagain,i do and agree and instead of slapping cross owners on the back for their opinions,good work and so called protection of the breed {however how you can say they protect the breed when they have bought a crossed dog from the very breeders you all dislike is beyond me} i havnt this forum seems very much if your in our gang your ok even if you by buying a crossbreeded dog you are promoting this further each time you walk it and tell people about your dog..I think that shadowlands is correct I would hope that people feel that from Jan 2012 they can buy a puppy,develop an understanding of the breed and develop a bond with a life long companion and not just see the breed as a money making adventure!!! absolutely!!!! I moved to the uk for work with my family pet! I had to leave her in quarrentine and its was the most horrible thing ever to do...she isnt a status symbol,she isnt a breeding dog she is loved adored and I am constantly learning from her. education and promotion of this breed is most needed here in the UK but remember that all UK owners are not all breeders! dont intend to do so ! most of us just want to promote the breed and develop our understanding of them along side you allhear hear!!!...and not as some of your forum members are doing holding court with their inuits in wolfdog clothing!!....

very strange your hostility to me,as clearly we sing from the same hymn sheet(or so it seems) i think maybe you need to at least get your facts straight before attacking me for no reason.

[happyfeet]

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

very strange your hostility to me,as clearly we sing from the same hymn sheet(or so it seems) i think maybe you need to at least get your facts straight before attacking me for no reason.

Wow you have taken a great deal of time to edit my quote!

I asked a question to the whole forum, I have not attacked you in anyway, you stated in other posts you had 'crossed dogs ' and other members also have these crossed mixed look a likes with your dog coming from what I would class as a puppy farm that breeds 'crossed' dogs and now crossed czech with timberwolfs would it not concern you to your dogs history, because it would me?

Many of the forum members over and over keep saying that you should breed, I didnt say you had ? I think you can read whatever you like into my posting and make more from what you see!
This seems to feed the forum.

I think that it would be irresponsible to encourage breeding these dogs without KC reg in the UK {my view}

Would I trust anyone to breed these dogs in the UK...NO I WOULDNT! until and its a long until KC registration is give!....IT WILL BE A LONG LONG WAIT!!

I had no idea this forum excisted till I met a person on the tube who mentioned her friends dog and then got chatting... Seems to me that a few of you have a bee in your bonnet about the UK and to be fair in part I agree.

Forum posts are each persons individual perception,ideas and thoughts and we are all free to take part in them, whether you decide to like a comment or dislike one, read extra into them or change words to make them sound different is up to you!

[Rona]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

I think that it would be irresponsible to encourage breeding these dogs without KC reg in the UK {my view}
Would I trust anyone to breed these dogs in the UK...NO I WOULDNT! until and its a long until KC registration is give!....IT WILL BE A LONG LONG WAIT!!

I don't remember any post saying WHEN Layla should breed, she doesn't even have a CSV female , so don't you worry. The suggestions about breeding were just forum members' appreciation of her attitude to her dogs, to the issue of breeding mixes, and of her views on the breed, health testing, training, etc., which she has been expressing on the forum for some time now.
From saying: "In my opinion you'd make a good breeder" or "I'd buy a pup from you, because I feel I could trust you", to actual breeding is a loooong way.

I hope I've explained this misunderstanding clearly enough.

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

I think that it would be irresponsible to encourage breeding these dogs without KC reg in the UK {my view}

Will it be irresponsible only to encourage breeding or to breed at all? It doesn't stopped many breeders, like mr Winder for example. Does it make him irresponsible breeder then, or is he an exception from this point of view?

[happyfeet]

Originally Posted by hedeon

Will it be irresponsible only to encourage breeding or to breed at all? It doesn't stopped many breeders, like mr Winder for example. Does it make him irresponsible breeder then, or is he an exception from this point of view?

As I dont know him or have never heard of him before the forum post
I couldnt comment on him or his practices!

I think {in my opinion } any breeding or protential breeding of these dogs should only be done in the UK once KC reg is gained....by perhaps registered vetted breeders if that is at all possible?

Ive seen 2 'breeders' websites one in devon and one in orkney I have not seen his until today

It did make me wonder ..if he is such a terrible person and had no care for his puppies why he would go to such an extent to vet everyone he sells a puppy to and even rejected members of this forum? Strange... conflicting messages really!

There is obviously a demand for the dogs in the U.K but worries me that people are buying into something that they may not bargain for!

One would hope that people thinking of buying this breed would do research and find forums like this to make themselves aware before purchasing!! one can dream!!

..however I also didnt know this forum or website excisted either!

if I was to consider another dog I wouldnt buy from the UK until the breed was registered...{in my own opinion}

[happyfeet]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

As I dont know him or have never heard of him before the forum post
I couldnt comment on him or his practices!

I think {in my opinion } any breeding or protential breeding of these dogs should only be done in the UK once KC reg is gained....by perhaps registered vetted breeders if that is at all possible?

Ive seen 2 'breeders' websites one in devon and one in orkney I have not seen his until today

It did make me wonder ..if he is such a terrible person and had no care for his puppies why he would go to such an extent to vet everyone he sells a puppy to and even rejected members of this forum? Strange... conflicting messages really!

There is obviously a demand for the dogs in the U.K but worries me that people are buying into something that they may not bargain for!

One would hope that people thinking of buying this breed would do research and find forums like this to make themselves aware before purchasing!! one can dream!!

..however I also didnt know this forum or website excisted either!

if I was to consider another dog I wouldnt buy from the UK until the breed was registered...{in my own opinion}

furthermore even after owning a czech wolfdog for over 10 years and living in the UK for a few years I wouldnt even consider breeding dogs!
I still think I am learning more and more everyday!!

[happyfeet]

Originally Posted by Rona

It's a pity you're not a breeder, Layla! Think about it!

hmmmmm..ofcourse not Rona?

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

It did make me wonder ..if he is such a terrible person and had no care for his puppies why he would go to such an extent to vet everyone he sells a puppy to and even rejected members of this forum? Strange... conflicting messages really!

For example he could reject someone from this forum (why not? If demand is so high he will find another buyer no problem) just to say in future "look how wonderful breeder I am, I've rejected one of you, because I really care about my pups." Or if a cross would be sold as a pure CSV, someone from this forum could actually find out that, and make a lot of unwanted noise on the forum. Explanations may be many, so I don't think these messages are conflicting really. I never said he is a terrible person. He just crosses CSV with others breeds, and I don't really like to get my dog from breeder who does that. That's it.

[tupacs2legs]

Originally Posted by Rona

I don't remember any post saying WHEN Layla should breed, she doesn't even have a CSV female , so don't you worry. The suggestions about breeding were just forum members' appreciation of her attitude to her dogs, to the issue of breeding mixes, and of her views on the breed, health testing, training, etc., which she has been expressing on the forum for some time now.
From saying: "In my opinion you'd make a good breeder" or "I'd buy a pup from you, because I feel I could trust you", to actual breeding is a loooong way.

I hope I've explained this misunderstanding clearly enough.

yes ! and thankyou

happyfeet... my crossbreed dogs are not wolfdog crosses by the way.

and the 'orkney' breeder does not breed pure.(but does own pure)

and the conversations via e-mail (3 in total i think) to mr winder were not as exciting as u would wish.....one of the reasons was , 'quote'....he 'would not risk a female to be spayed as they are too valuable to the breed at the moment' hmmmm........ is that me encouraging breeding with unregistered dogs ???.

[happyfeet]

Originally Posted by hedeon

For example he could reject someone from this forum (why not? If demand is so high he will find another buyer no problem) just to say in future "look how wonderful breeder I am, I've rejected one of you, because I really care about my pups." Or if a cross would be sold as a pure CSV, someone from this forum could actually find out that, and make a lot of unwanted noise on the forum. Explanations may be many, so I don't think these messages are conflicting really. I never said he is a terrible person. He just crosses CSV with others breeds, and I don't really like to get my dog from breeder who does that. That's it.

hmm.. but couldnt any of the breeders? I dont think that many prospective owners use the forum and there are quite a few forums, to be fair I've never seen the forum until 3 months ago and was put off registering as its quite anti UK on many threads. So what you have to say on here surely makes no difference to the breeder, but who knows!! we dont know why he rejected members of the forum I find it highly unlikely it would be because they are members?

I still think that its all conflicting... would I buy from him..NO, Why? Because I would need to know more,see more and speak with a breeder first to make my own mind up whether he or she is fit and responsible in my own eyes..be it UK/EUROPE

Being a member on here and a breeder doesnt in my mind say this person must be good as they post on a forum?

Does he care for where his puppys are going well he seems to ? and we agree on one thing would you buy from a breeder who also breeds crosses? NO too risky!

Did I say that you had said he was a terrible breeder? I think not!!!

Its a shame that he isnt able to respond to the treads and quotes and voice his own opinion as we all can do.
However I dont know the history of the breeders etc so perhaps there is a reason he was blocked from commenting?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

hmmmmm..ofcourse not Rona?

This is exactly what I meant: that a person like Layla would make a very reliable and trustful breeder.

You might not be aware of the fact that usually it takes a few months to recognize "the pup market" - sometimes it takes a year or more to get a pup from a litter and kennel one is interested in, not to mention the necessity of raising (saving) funds for the pup and its transport. After the pup is imported it takes at least two years to raise, X-ray, train & bonitaite the female (if somebody wants to follow the ethical breeding principles, naturally). Sometimes CSV females are not on heat until they are two or three years old, and then there is still the matter of finding a suitable (tested X-rayed) stud and registering the kennel etc.

As you can see there's a long way from "thinking about breeding" to "breeding", and the Kennel Club might be recognized in the meantime, which I hope will happen.
Besides, I don't even know if Layla will ever take my advice seriously. She might have some other plans for her life.

To me your concern about her not breeding seems a bit .... weird As far as CSVs are concerned, I think there are many more worrying problems in the UK.

[happyfeet]

As my original reply was to the whole forum, I think my concern was fair and I did say origninally it confused me. I think the other post from the friend of a breeder was much more thought provoking than my reply and questions..and I didnt attack anyone just asked a simple question...

I dont think that KC will allow registration of this breed in the UK for quite some time so dont hold your breath!!

I am an owner not a breeder, the process I am fully aware of, however be it in jest or not you still encoraged it on this forum! which lead me to ask the question and thankyou for your reply

[hedeon]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

...I dont think that many prospective owners use the forum and there are quite a few forums, to be fair I've never seen the forum until 3 months ago and was put off registering as its quite anti UK on many threads.

Well, good prospective owner will do a research on breed before even deciding does he want to be a owner of such breed, right? Well, assuming he is able to use internet, that will be one of first places to do such research. When typed "Czechoslovakian Wolfdog" into google, wolfdog.org came up on second and third place in search results. I think if someone never heard of wolfdog.org, never really searched anything about CSV in internet.
I never had problem registering on this forum and I am from Uk, and I never initially stated that I am Polish in fact.

Originally Posted by happyfeet

...would I buy from him..NO, Why? Because I would need to know more,see more and speak with a breeder first to make my own mind up whether he or she is fit and responsible in my own eyes..be it UK/EUROPE...
Being a member on here and a breeder doesnt in my mind say this person must be good as they post on a forum?

100% agree.
Regarding Tupac as breeder, I think Rona has such opinion about Tupac not only because she is a member of this forum, and she posts.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

I dont think that KC will allow registration of this breed in the UK for quite some time so dont hold your breath!!

Oh, really? I'm in touch with somebody from DEFRA, and this person has a different opinion on this subject. It's all a matter meeting formal requirements, and since importing pups with good pedigrees from different and interesting lines will be easier soon, they may have been fulfilled sooner than you think.

Why don't you ask a couple of European breeders how many enquieries about selling a pure bred CSV pup to the UK they have recenty had....

[happyfeet]

You presume that eveyone has internet? and that eveyone has knowledge of searching...I dont think this is actually a true reflection. I have access but very limited experience of the internet and forums....so for me its been an eye opener? perhaps thats my age!!
many of my friends hardly use the internet and are not very techno savvy....

Its good to hear all about your experience on the forum and nice to be able to share my own!

One would hope that all the people enquiring about puppies are going to push for registration and acceptance of the breed with the KC? perhaps something breeders could promote?

I dont need to ask breeders as I am not interested in having a puppy I very happy with my own dog , but thankyou for the information I am sure its good advice for other readers considering importing too the UK.

[Tazer]

Originally Posted by Tassle

I was led to believe that there were a group of people who had organised and got the paperwork sorted to submit to the KC - however - I was told this by someone who, after swearing she was not intending to cross-breed her CsV, went ahead and did just that! So I doubt the validity of what she says now...

Indeed, though I believe the someone in question stated they gathered all the paper work from the other people, who they then stated were never actually interested in getting the breed recognised in the first place.

Jmo, but I believe they just didn't want to work with each other. It would mean they'd have to put aside their differences and work for the betterment of the csv breed, rather than for the betterment of themselves and their pet projects.

I'm of the opinion that the future of the csv in the uk, lies not with those currently breeding (unless they change their ways) but with the owners of the pure csvs they've produced and with future owners/importers providing they've the right attitude. I'd go as far as saying, that those currently breeding have lost their right to any future involvement with the development of the breed here. Unless of course, as I said earlier, they change their ways and are able to prove it.

Possibly the saying 'Clutching at Straws' is applicable in this case.

Possibly, or they've just got their wires crossed.

Originally Posted by hedeon

He just crosses CSV with others breeds, and I don't really like to get my dog from breeder who does that. That's it.

Yep, that's it exactly.

Originally Posted by Rona

Oh, really? I'm in touch with somebody from DEFRA, and this person has a different opinion on this subject. It's all a matter meeting formal requirements, and since importing pups with good pedigrees from different and interesting lines will be easier soon, they may have been fulfilled sooner than you think.

Why don't you ask a couple of European breeders how many enquieries about selling a pure bred CSV pup to the UK they have recenty had....

I hope so, wonder which group they'd be put in. In other countries they seem to end up with all the herding breeds, which they aren't, I'd think working or utility would be a better choice for them.


Taz

[kalcon]

Originally Posted by happyfeet

As I dont know him or have never heard of him before the forum post
I couldnt comment on him or his practices!

I think {in my opinion } any breeding or protential breeding of these dogs should only be done in the UK once KC reg is gained....by perhaps registered vetted breeders if that is at all possible?

Ive seen 2 'breeders' websites one in devon and one in orkney I have not seen his until today

It did make me wonder ..if he is such a terrible person and had no care for his puppies why he would go to such an extent to vet everyone he sells a puppy to and even rejected members of this forum? Strange... conflicting messages really!

There is obviously a demand for the dogs in the U.K but worries me that people are buying into something that they may not bargain for!

One would hope that people thinking of buying this breed would do research and find forums like this to make themselves aware before purchasing!! one can dream!!

..however I also didnt know this forum or website excisted either!

if I was to consider another dog I wouldnt buy from the UK until the breed was registered...{in my own opinion}

hello i am james i own a Czechoslovakian wolfdog bred by ronnie winder, i live only 3 miles from him, i have visited his kennels many times, he breeds Czechoslovakian wolfdogs and he breeds other wolfdogs, he has never told any lies, he has bred a czech wolfdog to a wolf, but he has never bred a czech wolfdog to any other bred of dog, he bred the czech to the wolf as this is what he does with many breeders in European countries, Ireland and USA, i can assure you it is very hard to get a wolfdog from this man, 101 questions, he googles your post code to see where you live, he wants to know all about your life style, kids, animals, as i work and am away for 5 hrs a day he insisted i build an outdoor kennel and excercice area and that i also got another dog to keep the wolfdog company when i was at work, i have a labrador as well which he insisted i got castrated,,he treats everyone the same when vetting and only sells to best homes,,,,,,,,,,if you live in uk then email ronnie he wont eat you, and you can arrange visit to see his dogs and you can go into large enclosure with a pack of wolfdogs it is an experience you will never forget,,,,,,,james.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by kalcon

hello i am james i own a Czechoslovakian wolfdog bred by ronnie winder, i live only 3 miles from him, i have visited his kennels many times, he breeds Czechoslovakian wolfdogs and he breeds other wolfdogs, he has never told any lies, he has bred a czech wolfdog to a wolf, but he has never bred a czech wolfdog to any other bred of dog, he bred the czech to the wolf as this is what he does with many breeders in European countries, Ireland and USA, i can assure you it is very hard to get a wolfdog from this man, 101 questions, he googles your post code to see where you live, he wants to know all about your life style, kids, animals, as i work and am away for 5 hrs a day he insisted i build an outdoor kennel and excercice area and that i also got another dog to keep the wolfdog company when i was at work, i have a labrador as well which he insisted i got castrated,,he treats everyone the same when vetting and only sells to best homes,,,,,,,,,,if you live in uk then email ronnie he wont eat you, and you can arrange visit to see his dogs and you can go into large enclosure with a pack of wolfdogs it is an experience you will never forget,,,,,,,james.

And mixing Czechoslovakian wolfdog with a wolf is NOT a purebred breeding. It is making of hybrids and none of decent CsW breeders will ever do it or say it is ok to do it.

[kalcon]

Originally Posted by Tazer

Indeed, though I believe the someone in question stated they gathered all the paper work from the other people, who they then stated were never actually interested in getting the breed recognised in the first place.

Jmo, but I believe they just didn't want to work with each other. It would mean they'd have to put aside their differences and work for the betterment of the csv breed, rather than for the betterment of themselves and their pet projects.

I'm of the opinion that the future of the csv in the uk, lies not with those currently breeding (unless they change their ways) but with the owners of the pure csvs they've produced and with future owners/importers providing they've the right attitude. I'd go as far as saying, that those currently breeding have lost their right to any future involvement with the development of the breed here. Unless of course, as I said earlier, they change their ways and are able to prove it.



Possibly, or they've just got their wires crossed.


Yep, that's it exactly.



I hope so, wonder which group they'd be put in. In other countries they seem to end up with all the herding breeds, which they aren't, I'd think working or utility would be a better choice for them.


Taz

i am james friend of ronnies or as he has told me you will know him as paul,,,,,,LOL suprized to see you on hear talking wolfdogs, but he did laugh when i read your
never arque with an idiot
they drag you down to therelevel
then beat you with experience,,,,,,,,,,

his reply
only an idiot or half witt
would try and act like they know it all
then try and take on someone with experience
you learnt a good lesson i hope.......

[kalcon]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

And mixing Czechoslovakian wolfdog with a wolf is NOT a purebred breeding. It is making of hybrids and none of decent CsW breeders will ever do it or say it is ok to do it.

maybe you need to look closer to home and see who does the same in your country because it has been done many times by many breeders over the years, the big difference with ronnie is he does not defruad people not like breeders in Europe who register x bred czechoslovakian wolfdogs with FCI............YOU KNOW IT HAPPENS AND SO DO WE ALL......so dont slate him for something he does and loves, look at his dogs they are out of this world, people from Europe own many of his wolfdogs, dont mix the jealousy of some people with people who dont like the fact that the czechoslovakian wolfdogs are in the uk,,,,,,,,ronnie complained about a bitch owned by Alunimum kennels in Italy,that had been used for breeding 10 times in 11yrs, first litter at under 1 year and 4 litters by the time she was only 2.5 yrs old, he was told to mind his own buisness and that the laws in Europe where different to uk, but this is not breeding its abuse of an animal, ronnie was banned for he would not let this matter drop, RONA was the main person think it was because ronnie said if all the litters are here on wolfdog.org then why did the moderators or people who do the data base not report this matter,,,,,,he was also called a liar by Rona years ago about de louba tar kennels ,,,,,,so happens ronnie was correct and de louba tar puppy mill was shut by authorites ,,,,,,,,,,dont condem this guy because he wants new bloodlines and used mother nature and one of his czechwolfdogs, the joke is he done it for breeders in Europe,,,,,,,,,,,