Differences in bonitations...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by jasmine

NO....in Slovakia...if the dogs under the standard couldn't be P1 or P3!
64 cm tall male is not a breeding male!! He is under the standard!

Edith, if you think you are right why you never asked why dog from your kennel (Crying Wolf Falco) is still P5 (note "good") even if he has two disqualification faults (size under minimum - 64 cm) and character (shy - Ob)? It was EXACTLY the same case.... He is very nice dog which is under minimum size. The note was lower only because of his character... When he would have perfect character like Daimon have also Falco would be A64 Of R1 P3....
So why you wonder first right now...

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

I am a bit puzzled by the bonitation results from Pozna. How can a male dog with 64cm in withers be bonitated and claimed breedable? That is a major fault against standard.
Or is there a different standard for CSW in Poland?

Dear Mirka, as a breeder and experienced owner of CzW you should know it is not the only case. Please do not sneer at "different standard for CSW in Poland" because EVERYBODY who has a little bit more to do with bonitations in Slovakia and Czech Republic know such cases... You will find over 20 dogs which were 64 cm and get the notes "P1" (excellent), P3 ("very good") or P5 ("good").
NO, the bonitations were not in Poland. They were in Slovakia and Czech Republic...
Why such notes were and are possible? I wrote it already in the last post...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

Lol, can you tell me, which dogs with disqualifying faults I breed? I have one female 10 years old and spayed and other one P1 but with heavy dysplasia
I am not insane to breed on dogs with disqualifying faults!

OK, my question is now about Mery... I know you are not able to breed with her because of the strong dysplasia but bonitation code say NOTHING about dysplasia... It has no influence on it..
.
Were you never astonished about the excellent P1 note Mery get? During the youth presentation in Czech Republic she get P5 (note "good") because of the really visible problems with movement. The problem didn't disappeared and on your web page you wrote nice articles about hydroterapie which is necessary because of the problems with movement Mery has...

Look, despite of the movement problems which she has she get without any problems the EXCELLENT note during the bonition in Belgium... Just perfect code... [-> "is there a different standard for CSW in Belgium?"]

Let's say you have an another female which has the same problems with the movement but they are caused not because of HD but slack ligaments. And the problems are visible... You see - with such female you would get perfect code and breed with her even if it is serious DISQUALIFYING FAULT....
Did you really never wondered about the result you get?

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As far as I know sometimes dogs with 1 cm (!) under standart high are bonitated - if they don´t have other faults - and allowed to breed once under special control of the offsprings. The reason is that many small dogs have offspring of normal high (and the other way round).

Its the basic problem. Breding commision have roghts to let breeding on ANY dog, if is necessary. ANY means e.g. dog with heavy HD or P14 in code. But in this cases is using such dog limited abd the offsprings are under control. But if dog with disqualified fault get code P1-5, then nobody have rights limited the breeder such dog using without control. Little other situation is in CZ or SK, where any pair must have agreement from breeding commision and nobody can registrate puppies without sign of club. But in the countries, where is breed absolutelly free, is it very danger praxis.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by Gaga

Write an official letter to all c 3 persons of committee and ask for a response. The judge decides about the bonitations codes, not the organizer of the meeting

Sure, it will be a thema by next common meeting of CZ and SK club. Here is discussion because some people defend this praxis and trying to evidence, that dogs under standard minimum high are OK and can be using normally in breed (code P1-5).

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Margo

For example he can give a very bad note to a dog which has no other faults than the wrong indexes. So dog which bonitation code is sometimes PERFECT (As Of) can get note only "very good" or even "disqualification" only for the wrong proportions. On the other hand a dog which for example character test was not so good can still be even 'excellent' if during the bonitation it was good visible the dog has much better character than the bonitation shows... It is the same with all other faults... They are judged regarding to their number and weight...

And maybe it would be a good idea to announce the notes, written in the bonitation card, but not in the code? Let's say here, on wolfdog.org?

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Margo

OK, my question is now about Mery... I know you are not able to breed with her because of the strong dysplasia but bonitation code say NOTHING about dysplasia... It has no influence on it..
.
Were you never astonished about the excellent P1 note Mery get? During the youth presentation in Czech Republic she get P5 (note "good") because of the really visible problems with movement. The problem didn't disappeared and on your web page you wrote nice articles about hydroterapie which is necessary because of the problems with movement Mery has...

Look, despite of the movement problems which she has she get without any problems the EXCELLENT note during the bonition in Belgium... Just perfect code... [-> "is there a different standard for CSW in Belgium?"]

Let's say you have an another female which has the same problems with the movement but they are caused not because of HD but slack ligaments. And the problems are visible... You see - with such female you would get perfect code and breed with her even if it is serious DISQUALIFYING FAULT....
Did you really never wondered about the result you get?

Dear Margo, I have never been hidding Mery´s problems. They are very known, I´d say internationally I was not hidding her problems in front of the judge, Sona Bognarova either, Sona could see her not only during the bonitation, but also at our home and practically anytime for the two days she spent in Belgium. Despite the fact, and thanks to all the hydrotherapy we did, Sona could not find problems in her movement when presented in movement - which she said publicly and therefore gave her the code she gave her. If you are envious about a perfect code given to unbreedable dog, then I pity you.

If you were not ridiculous, you would realise that with the dysplasia Mery has and about which I know from her 9 months of age, I did not even have to bother to bonitate her. And that the result of the bonitation, be it whatever, would not have changed the fact that she will never breed.

Your hypothesis of "if I had a female" and "then it would be disqualifying fault" have no basis on real actions or facts. You have accused me and my kennel publicly and have absolutely no ground for it, except for your hatred and paranoia that everything is about you.
I would appreciate, if you apologised for the false accusations you have made on me, my kennel and my dogs.

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by Margo

Edith, if you think you are right why you never asked why dog from your kennel (Crying Wolf Falco) is still P5 (note "good") even if he has two disqualification faults (size under minimum - 64 cm) and character (shy - Ob)? It was EXACTLY the same case.... He is very nice dog which is under minimum size. The note was lower only because of his character... When he would have perfect character like Daimon have also Falco would be A64 Of R1 P3....
So why you wonder first right now...

Margo, My question was not against you or your dog(s)! I was just wondering.............if we have the same bonitacions...how could be big differences ??????....an in this case how could be happened that some bonitacions in some countries are not accepted.........

about HD: yes...it would be good if we could see the hd results in bonitacion code....or...the dogs could be bonitated and bred just if they have got official hd results (like in Hungary and some other countries)....

Edit


PS: I looked through the studdog list and I couldn't find dogs under the standard with P1 and/or P3 code. But maybe it is my fault.........

[Hanka]

To Vaiva:
In bonitation codes are only defects. If czech breed comission (or bonitation comission) see some small exterier defects what have not character of defects, we write it to note only. Is not right, dogs with diskvalification defects have it in note, but no in codes. (In note you can read open lips, but in real it is not Really open lips, but only very little. It is just like: "danger-children of this dogs can have open lips when somebody will combinate two dogs with this small mistake". Or in note can be some mistake or defect what has not letter in bonitation code.....
And: all members of Czech club can see full bonitation codes + NOTES on clubpage. We have it!!!! already.
So everybody in Czech can know all about dog, what somebody wants know....On foto can be perfect dog, he can have perfect code, But in note you can read something more....
In other countries it does not exist, I think......
Do it Vaiva, make oficial club in your country (for wolfdogs), keep conditions for breeding and "our" breed will be better.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Do it Vaiva, make oficial club in your country (for wolfdogs), keep conditions for breeding and "our" breed will be better.

Dear Hanka,
in this years we have II CSV CLUB dogs show in Lithuania and II bonitation in me country.

all dogs who have breeds right in LT have and bonitation and HD results.

greatings
vet.doc. FCI and bonitation judge, CVK in Lithuania president
Daiva Rimaityte

[Hanka]

So great )). Now you can only write notes behind bonitation codes on some club pages . If all clubs wil do the same.......Dream

[*Satu]

Why bonitationjudge can make bonitation to own dogs and puppies?

Or why somebody use electricity collar in bonitation? or they use violence?
and why dog who is very aggresive have P1-P3?

"everyone can live whit dog who is not looking like perfect but not if dog wants eat all peoples and other dogs"

[Hanka]

Satu, where and when hapenned it? If is somebody member of breedcomission, he (she) must not be member of this in moment when his (her) dog make bonitation.
For example like me in Czech republic. I think, I was one time on bonitation and I was in bonitation comission. But in moment of bonitation I must not be in commission. It must be official, on the paper from bonitation where are bonitation results. I must not measure my dog, I must not tell about his result and bonitation comission have minus one member in this moment. But I don´t know, how is it in other countries......

[jasmine]

Originally Posted by *Satu

Why bonitationjudge can make bonitation to own dogs and puppies?

Or why somebody use electricity collar in bonitation? or they use violence?
and why dog who is very aggresive have P1-P3?

"everyone can live whit dog who is not looking like perfect but not if dog wants eat all peoples and other dogs"

yeeess...good question...I have got nice videospot about bonitacio in Hronec...some part is very interresting
agressivity is biggest problem than shyness...and I think the klubs must think over and change the caracter test!!!!

[*Satu]

Hanka, take your time and check all bonitation results.


I think WE need INTERNATIONAL CSV CLUB and all breedclubs haves same orgin bonitation and test rules.
if some club/country whant´s strict rules than orgin they can make it.

Also we need more bonitationjudges and that International Club can teach all botitationjudges.

I know very many breeds and they have that kind of INT CLUB.
They have meetings every second year.

[Pavel]

Originally Posted by *Satu

I think WE need INTERNATIONAL CSV CLUB and all breedclubs haves same orgin bonitation and test rules.

It would be great, but is it only wish, witch dont function. Every national kenel club is dependent and will nod accept any international club. Is only one way - every country must have own club and this clubs must cooperate and make common rules.

[massimo]

wow...this thread is becoming "let's see who throws more shit on other breeders!!"
Margo, can you change the title?

[Hanka]

Oh Satu, I have not time to find all bonitations on web )))). Ufff.
I can tell you only how it is in Czech.
But: what is a little funny- maybe are some eruptions on the Sun, much people write attacking articles on Poland, Czech, English forums, bad words about other people...... Or is bad position of planets....maybe

[massimo]

I have no time to make official request but anyway it is not SO important for me.
Somebody asked me a question and for some reason I'm not sure if I can reply.
Are the recent bonitations mad in Italy:
Recognized or not from Czech and Slovak club?
Does anybody in contact with the club know this reply?
I'm not speaking about this site, we know that the Italian bonitations are not valid for wolfdog.org, but for the official clubs?
Sasha? Hanka? do you know?
massimo

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by *Satu

Why bonitationjudge can make bonitation to own dogs and puppies?

Judge can not judge dogs which he is owner. For bonitate his own dogs he must leave the comittee and someone else must be in the breeding comittee. But judge can judge dogs which he bred but which belong to other persons...

[Margo]

Originally Posted by jasmine

yeeess...good question...I have got nice videospot about bonitacio in Hronec...some part is very interresting
agressivity is biggest problem than shyness...and I think the klubs must think over and change the caracter test!!!!

Let's stop play the game "Quest which dog I mean" It makes more things easier.... and make the air more clear...
Let say it open and ask Michael questions about the bonitation of Gorbi Zlata Palz directly... We were there, we know why the results was as it is... It has no sence to make something top secret because there is really nothing to hide...