Elbow Dysplasia

[admin]

I have one question to you all here: if the heart illness would be found by your dogs would you breed with them? With the explanation "my dog have hearth problems but other people who breed do not check it and it is possible their dogs are also ill"?

The dogs was removed because in the most cases the elbow problem were hidden by their owners and elbow problems start to spread among the breed. While before there were also none known cases of ED-dysplasia it is getting more and more problematic and every month I'm getting information about new ED-infected dogs.

The main difference between HD and ED is: ED is considered as be higher heriditary than HD.
While using HD-free dogs you can only reduce the number of HD-infected puppies. The same method in the case of ED (using ED-free dogs) almost guaranty ED-free puppies. And vice versa: breeding with the ED-infected dogs almost guaranty some ED-infected puppies in a litter. None method is perfect but if the case of using both parents with ED-problems you will get 40% of puppies with elbow problems and if one of the parents is ED-infected still 13% will have ED-problems (according OFA). High number compared to HD where the heredity is much lower and the influence of other factors bigger.

When you will look into the database (maybe Margo or elf can prepare some statistisc) you will see that most ED-affected dogs belong to the same "family" and have common ancestors; and their offsprings also are ED-affected.

Nobody can forbid the breeding with ED-dogs but if you like it or not you must take into consideration that by using ED-infected dogs the problem will spread out. According to the researches it seems that removing ED-dogs from the group of breeding dogs can give fast very good results and it can reduce the number of ED-infected dogs to the number when we can say again "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs DO NOT have problems with elbows".
It is up to you if you will use such dogs for breeding. We just give you the advice "it seems to be a bad idea".

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Admin

I have one question to you all here: if the heart illness would be found by your dogs would you breed with them? With the explanation "my dog have hearth problems but other people who breed do not check it and it is possible their dogs are also ill"?

The dogs was removed because in the most cases the elbow problem were hidden by their owners and elbow problems start to spread among the breed. While before there were also none known cases of ED-dysplasia it is getting more and more problematic and every month I'm getting information about new ED-infected dogs.

The main difference between HD and ED is: ED is considered as be higher heriditary than HD.
While using HD-free dogs you can only reduce the number of HD-infected puppies. The same method in the case of ED (using ED-free dogs) almost guaranty ED-free puppies. And vice versa: breeding with the ED-infected dogs almost guaranty some ED-infected puppies in a litter. None method is perfect but if the case of using both parents with ED-problems you will get 40% of puppies with elbow problems and if one of the parents is ED-infected still 13% will have ED-problems (according OFA). High number compared to HD where the heredity is much lower and the influence of other factors bigger.

When you will look into the database (maybe Margo or elf can prepare some statistisc) you will see that most ED-affected dogs belong to the same "family" and have common ancestors; and their offsprings also are ED-affected.

Nobody can forbid the breeding with ED-dogs but if you like it or not you must take into consideration that by using ED-infected dogs the problem will spread out. According to the researches it seems that removing ED-dogs from the group of breeding dogs can give fast very good results and it can reduce the number of ED-infected dogs to the number when we can say again "Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs DO NOT have problems with elbows".
It is up to you if you will use such dogs for breeding. We just give you the advice "it seems to be a bad idea".

With this way of thinking, will you also remove all dogs with HD B and C from the studdoglist, because pretty much the same can be said about these dogs, I am just afraid if you decide to do that, our breed will soon have some other problems like even stronger inbreeding than now, ED 1/1 is the mildest degree except for ED 0/0, I can`t imagne breeding with HD C is better or worse than breeding with ED 1/1, as long as the other dog have ED 0/0 or HD A, but if you are ONLY giving advises, then there is no reason to remove the dogs from studdoglist as people then still can choose if they want to use a dog with ED 1/1 or HD C or if you should follow your ideology, you should also remove all dogs who have no ED results.

....Just some thoughts !

Rolf

[admin]

Originally Posted by rolf

With this way of thinking, will you also remove all dogs with HD B and C from the studdoglist, because pretty much the same can be said about these dogs

I wil not agree with you. If you mate two HD-free dogs you will still get some puppies with worser results (dysplatic). When you mate two ED-free dogs you can almost be sure that ALL puppies will be healthy.

Second: if you remove dogs with results worser than HD-A you will loose a lot of interesting blood. If you remove all dogs with ED-problems you loose NOTHING.

It is simple calculation.

Originally Posted by rolf

then there is no reason to remove the dogs from studdoglist as people then still can choose if they want to use a dog with ED 1/1 or HD C

In many countries the breeders can do whatever they want. They can breed (and they do) with HD-E dogs, with dogs without pedigrees, with wrong bites, epileptic, with missing testicles or so called Mutaras. But I hope you understand it is not a way of responsible breeding which should be advertised here on Wolfdog.

Originally Posted by rolf

or if you should follow your ideology, you should also remove all dogs who have no ED results.

One thing you can not change: dog with ED 1-1 is not a heathly dog. The same case are dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, eye problem and any genetical faults. A responsible breeders will not breed with such dog and will not look for excuses like "but other breeders do not check it". MAYBE other dogs are not heathly also but dogs with diagnosed genetic illness are not healthy FOR SURE.

I know it is painfull information for you because as I see Voice is half-brother of your dogs but I hope you will understand this steps because according to the information written on Internet we can really cause visible improvement of the ED-results in some lines if we will remove not healthy dogs.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Admin

if you remove dogs with results worser than HD-A you will loose a lot of interesting blood. If you remove all dogs with ED-problems you loose NOTHING.

It is simple calculation.

The problem with this is just that you have no idea if dogs without ED results, have ED 2/2 or worse, but still they are on the studdoglist, only because the owners did not care to test their dogs or tested their dogs but did not make it official, so in a way you reward people who don`t test or hide the results from public and punish people who do test and makes it official, I really don`t like that thought

Originally Posted by Admin

In many countries the breeders can do whatever they want. They can breed (and they do) with HD-E dogs, with dogs without pedigrees, with wrong bites, epileptic, with missing testicles or so called Mutaras. But I hope you understand it is not a way of responsible breeding which should be advertised here on Wolfdog.

And you honestly think it is better to reward people not to test their dogs, so they will not be removed from the list here on wolfdog.org ? ...shame on you

Originally Posted by Admin

One thing you can not change: dog with ED 1-1 is not a heathly dog. The same case are dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, eye problem and any genetical faults. A responsible breeders will not breed with such dog and will not look for excuses like "but other breeders do not check it". MAYBE other dogs are not heathly also but dogs with diagnosed genetic illness are not healthy FOR SURE.

If it really is that importent, why do you allow people to advertise for dogs who are not tested(or not officially tested) for ED, when you don`t allow dogs who are not officially tested for HD ? ...to me that is pretty strange

Originally Posted by Admin

I know it is painfull information for you because as I see Voice is half-brother of your dogs

I really don`t see how this information can be painfull for me ? Uno is officially tested for all possible diseases(HD, ED, Eye diseases and Pituitary dwarfism) Xtreme too(except HD and ED as he need to be 18month before making the xrays) and they are both free/healthy(Uno have HD B).
I test my dogs more than most people

Originally Posted by Admin

I hope you will understand this steps because according to the information written on Internet we can really cause visible improvement of the ED-results in some lines if we will remove not healthy dogs.

I really don`t think so, all you achieve by these steps, is people stop testing their dogs, because then no one can remove the unhealthy dogs from the list and you will be in absolutly same place as you started or in an even worse place ...without people testing their dogs, you don`t even have a possibility to choose to use a dog without ED, because nobody knows if the dogs will have it ! ....sorry, but your politics and assumptions sucks, in my humble opinion !

Rolf

[Nebulosa]

Rolf, could you please quote the exactly moment where Admin wrotes that the dogs without results will stay in the list of Stud dogs? I really didn't find it, so I believe that all dogs without ED results will lso be removed from the list.
So far seems that the datas on some places of the webpage are not actualized because its still the old page.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Rolf, could you please quote the exactly moment where Admin wrotes that the dogs without results will stay in the list of Stud dogs? I really didn't find it, so I believe that all dogs without ED results will lso be removed from the list.
So far seems that the datas on some places of the webpage are not actualized because its still the old page.

Nebulosa, no I can not, because Admin choose not answer that part of my reply in post 10(last line), but if it is so, then I apologize for assumption, but still I don`t see why ED 1/1 is worser than HD C(which I think is allowed to use in all countries), as Admin wrote :

"If you mate two HD-free dogs you will still get some puppies with worser results (dysplatic). When you mate two ED-free dogs you can almost be sure that ALL puppies will be healthy."

This frase makes me think that HD is worser than ED when speaking about heriditary diseases, but ofcourse I am not an expert

Rolf

[Ricky's Wolf]

the thing that more it makes me become sad it is the fact that I personally have asked more times an answer to my questions in this thread, but there has been need of a particular and correct intervention from Rolf (message n°8 ) to make to answer the amministrator, this it is sad.

The dog in matter is Voice of wolf, my dog with HD A and ED 0-1 and not ED 1-1 before thing to be clarified.
Second thing I don't absolutely agree that HD C is not similar to ED 1-1 (and what however it doesn't concern my dog that has ED 0 -1).
Besides I don't know with what statistics you work, but the displasia of the hip derives from a genetic factor, stings.
The environmental factor can worsen only a pup that however he could be carrier, also in least part.
Of sure all the pups should grow with a correct environmental factor because he is not able' never to know, but if a pup genetically has ancestors without displasia the pup he is healthy, he is genetically almost impossible that the factor environmental harbors displasia to a healthy pup of this illness.

But the thing most important it is not these thoughts of mine or yours that can be lined up or no.
The fundamental thing is that if there are some rules they must be correct and correct for all the dogs.

Originally Posted by rolf

The problem with this is just that you have no idea if dogs without ED results, have ED 2/2 or worse, but still they are on the studdoglist, only because the owners did not care to test their dogs or tested their dogs but did not make it official, so in a way you reward people who don`t test or hide the results from public and punish people who do test and makes it official, I really don`t like that thought
Rolf

I'm agree!

You of the site have made your calculations and studies. I am able not to agree but being a site tried me I must respect the rules and I don't have problem. Voice of wolf is a dog that cannot be on the stud list, ok there is no problem.
But they must have removed all the dogs that don't have the official plates of the elbows. Before sended the plates of Voice at center of official reading, I knew that 1 elbow was not perfect and I could only to make official the HDs. Instead I am correct and I have furnished to you some site the Official information.
Then, I repeat him: if there are some rules in a private site they must have respected even if I don't agree.
But the rules must be equal for everybody, otherwise the site loses the credibility.
And it would be a sin.

[admin]

Originally Posted by rolf

Ofcourse not ! Do you seriously think it is fair to compare dog with heart problems, epilepsy or strong HD, with dogs who have the mildest degree of ED(0/1) ?

Yes, I want. I will say more. According the scientific work the probability to inherit the heart problems or epilepsy is MUCH smaller (or in the cases like secondary epilepsy just = 0%) than the probability to inherit the ED...

Can you write me a GOOD reasons why in this case we should punish dogs with hear problems and epilepsy and make exception for ED?