CSV Mixes in the US

[GalomyOak]

Well, the day I was dreading has arrived.

Yesterday I received an email asking to use my males as stud dogs for "Aatu Tamaskans" . Of course I refused! I had always thought Tamaskans were completely free from wolf genetics...but I learned, I was wrong.
http://www.tamaskanbreeders.com/History_update.html

This "kennel" in the US contacted me for stud use:
http://www.conchurtamaskans.com/

And I found this pedigree linking back to her dogs:

http://www.the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fabl...PolarSpeed.pdf

Oskari is this dog: http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/10973, and this line was bred from a kennel called "Polar Speed" in Finland.

I soon found these kennels as well, all breeding from the same lines:
http://www.takaritamaskans.com/
http://albatamaskans.webs.com/ourboys.htm
* This kennel now has puppies in 4 states in the US, as well as Wales, Austria and Germany - all are called "future breeders" on the TBA website.

The breeder told me in her next email that she had found other breeders (CSV, I assume) that had agreed to help her with their "breeds" goal to improve genetics by adding more Czechoslovakian Wolfdog blood. I don't know where this "help" comes from...but please, I beg whoever, if you are reading this - don't do this to the CSV in the US! It is too new here, it can cause so many problems for our breed in the future.

I don't think these Tamaskan breeders realize what a real wolfdog can be like...they are selling their dogs as the perfect, easy, loving family pet that isn't good for guarding because it gets along with everyone...

Sad regards,
Marcy

[tupacs2legs]

this is very sad and has been discussed alot on tamaskan forum/sites it reminds me alot of the northern inuit thing in england

http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/about863-tdsgbforum.html

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by tupacs2legs

this is very sad and has been discussed alot on tamaskan forum/sites it reminds me alot of the northern inuit thing in england

http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/about863-tdsgbforum.html

I just don't understand...okay, if you want a Tamaskan, you buy one....if you want a CSV, you buy that instead (after making sure either is really the best suited breed, to you, of course). Certainly from the US, it costs just as much to import either...But why the need to make mixes? This lady did at least say that she did thorough health checks on her dogs...but in looking at some of the other websites, there are cases of genetic epilepsy, strong cryptorchidism, Addison's disease already within this small gene pool...I didn't really get the impression this lady was even looking for healthy CSV lines...just whoever would agree to breed.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi Marcy,

it was just a question of time
And who believed the fairytale of the Tamaskan (behavior and origin) anyway...?

Michael

[Mikael]

People has bean asking me here in Sweden to, from another wolfdog (breed) and I know they have talk to Saarloos owners also...

I think it is very important to point out that this are mix breeders !
They have no experience on how to mix a new breed...

They think one new dog will help save there breed... They do not have a register nor club, they do not even know how many dogs they have in there own (breed), they do not have a breed plan and they do not really know how much wolfbood they already have in there (breed) today...

Ask them a question back, you get no answer or a very bad answer. Or they just get very very mad.

I’m for making new breeds, but I do not support mix breeding, I think there is a very very big difference... And any mixing whit wolf or wolfdogs will create many problems, problems that I think you must be a organisation to handle in a good way...

But no I will not mix my CsW to any other dog or dog-breed, not even a serious project

Very best regards / Mikael

[miran]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Hi Marcy,

it was just a question of time
And who believed the fairytale of the Tamaskan (behavior and origin) anyway...?

Michael

Don't make a mistake to confuse the Aatu tamaskan with the real Tamaskan.
Only TDR register Tamaskan are true tamaskans. All others a from breeders that mixed and the starter off the breed Tamaskan wants the name Tamaskan off them. Her name was also stolen and misused. If you really want to know more and the truth about it all just visit our forum:http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/about3...dsgbforum.html
or the TDR site http://www.tamaskan-dog.com/index2.htm
Or the The Tamaskan Dog Society of Great Britain:http://www.tamaskan-dog.co.uk/
The TBA where you talk about: They are a shame for the breed tamaskan and we do not recognize their offspring as Tamaskans. If the breed is ready for any recognition then only the TBR registered Tamaskan will fall under that.

[*Satu]

more nice links...http://www.the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fable.com/

[miran]

Originally Posted by *Satu

more nice links...http://www.the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fable.com/

read all about this site and the peoples behind it here: http://tdsgbforum.forumup.com/viewto...rum=tdsgbforum

It is a shame that to sell there one not good checked on health issues off spring to make the real tamaskan so black.
If they want to start a new breed. That's okee but don't lie about the Tamaskan and use an own name!!!! All used dogs are DNA registered so if you really want to know the truth: DNA doesn't lie

And all this BS just started because Takari got a male with one testicle an had the advise not to breed whit him. So they have different opinions and there was fighting. Takari was out of TDR and started to make the TDR black. Shame shame shame. Do what you want but don't involve the real Tamaskan.

[Mikael]

Hmmmmm...

And how will we know which ones tells the troth ???
Is really all dogs DNA tested ??? If they are, that is very good work, but how can we se this info ???

Ps, post nr #5 is not about the Tamaskan dog. Ds

Best regards / Mikael

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Well, the day I was dreading has arrived.

Yesterday I received an email asking to use my males as stud dogs for "Aatu Tamaskans" . Of course I refused! I had always thought Tamaskans were completely free from wolf genetics...but I learned, I was wrong.
http://www.tamaskanbreeders.com/History_update.html

This "kennel" in the US contacted me for stud use:
http://www.conchurtamaskans.com/

And I found this pedigree linking back to her dogs:

http://www.the-no-wolf-tamaskan-fabl...PolarSpeed.pdf

Oskari is this dog: http://www.wolfdog.org/dbase/d/10973, and this line was bred from a kennel called "Polar Speed" in Finland.

I soon found these kennels as well, all breeding from the same lines:
http://www.takaritamaskans.com/
http://albatamaskans.webs.com/ourboys.htm
* This kennel now has puppies in 4 states in the US, as well as Wales, Austria and Germany - all are called "future breeders" on the TBA website.

The breeder told me in her next email that she had found other breeders (CSV, I assume) that had agreed to help her with their "breeds" goal to improve genetics by adding more Czechoslovakian Wolfdog blood. I don't know where this "help" comes from...but please, I beg whoever, if you are reading this - don't do this to the CSV in the US! It is too new here, it can cause so many problems for our breed in the future.

I don't think these Tamaskan breeders realize what a real wolfdog can be like...they are selling their dogs as the perfect, easy, loving family pet that isn't good for guarding because it gets along with everyone...

Sad regards,
Marcy

hi Marcy, it will happen and there is nothing you can do will stop it, money is the goal, my first litter in uk all new owners signed contract that they would never cross breed there CWS with any other breed of dog, they did and it would cost me fortune to take them all to court to get my dogs back as it is classed as civil mater, as for the Tamaskan, this is not a breed of dog, it is not recognised in any country or by any kennel club, the person who is reasponsable for this so called bred is from uk, and used to breed belgium shepherds, i refused to sell this person CWS many years ago in 2003, the dogs they call tamaskans are nothing but a mix of different breeds, just like the inuits, people who breed these dogs now say they have records of breedings and that they will become recognised breed with kennel club, so anyone reading this mail in uk who has a Tamaskan and has been told by the breeder it will be recognised by the k.c. please phone registration department and ask for Caroline Hallett, she will confirm they are not up for recognition, they have been breeding these dogs for years and still have not produced a type, so they are doing something very wrong, Bluestag took some of the cross bred dogs to finland and she lived there, then some dogs came back to the uk, and people where told they now had wolf content, but no one knows if they do, with only this persons word to say so, i would take it very lightly what she has said about wolf content, funny she came home to uk when the CWS had got some numbers up, then suddenly the Tamaskan re-appears but now with wolf content,, MONEY,,,,,to make things clear the inuit, british inuit, have been bred in uk for some 15 yrs according to there web sites, they still have no type and still can not become recognised breed, by the way the Utonagon was also by the same kennel Bluestag, when they died a death, then came the Tamaskan, it also died a death but then came back as the new tamaskan but now with wolf content, i have seen these dogs they are not wolfdogs, they do not act or have anything in common with true wolfdogs, they are normal dogs and act like them. but when you put wolfdog or wolf content in any advert people buy them, the web sites on the net now state the Tamaskans have wolf content, i wonder who is behind it all and who put the word out,,,,,,, it is all crap lies and deciet to make money from selling dogs. RONNIE WINDER UK.

[miran]

indeed the tamaskan is a new breed( well not an official breed) that will not go yet for recognition so any breeder that says they will be recognised by the k.c. is a liar!
We will not go for recognition yet because the tamaskan is not yet how we want it to be.(the global appearance is there but the fur is in some line too short) It is a breed started from different breeds(you can read that all on the links I gave) yes but they have no wolf content at all!!!!!!!
we call them the wolfdog without the wolf content!!just because the way they look
Make no mistake a real tamaskan is 100% dog.

Alba and takari are not real tamaskan breeders!!!

[miran]

Also must be known that another stole the blustag name and places falls adverts
The tamaskan has been without wolfcontent and will always be without

[draggar]

Originally Posted by solowolf

hi Marcy, it will happen and there is nothing you can do will stop it, money is the goal, my first litter in uk all new owners signed contract that they would never cross breed there CWS with any other breed of dog, they did and it would cost me fortune to take them all to court to get my dogs back as it is classed as civil mater,

QFT on the bold part. Some (unethical?) breeders only car about breeding what is popular and taking in as much cash as they can. We'll see more of this as the breed becomes popular. When we sold our puppies we had similar statements in our contracts. One went to a pet home - it was mandatory he was neutered when he was old enough (he also came with a limited registration so they couldn't show him). The co-own female won't be bred without our consultation (the owner wouldn't do that anyway) and the fully-owned female, while the owner does have the right to breed her how they feel, they will consult us.

But - be glad that it seems that most of the vlcak community has a high set of standards. People who do this will have a hard time falsifying the paperwork (like some other breed clubs).

We know someone who was "training" a Dutch shepherd for close to a year. What did he do? He bred her to one of his malinois and when the litter was born had a very well known trainer falsify paperwork so they could be registered as pure bred malinois. I won't mention any names.

I don't think we'll have this problem in this breed for a while.

[lupis]

Originally Posted by draggar

I don't think we'll have this problem in this breed for a while.

We have. In Italy we have dogs from Passo del Lupo who look exacly like Tamaskans... but in pedigree are CLC.

[blustag]

Originally Posted by solowolf

hi Marcy, it will happen and there is nothing you can do will stop it, money is the goal, my first litter in uk all new owners signed contract that they would never cross breed there CWS with any other breed of dog, they did and it would cost me fortune to take them all to court to get my dogs back as it is classed as civil mater, as for the Tamaskan, this is not a breed of dog, it is not recognised in any country or by any kennel club, the person who is reasponsable for this so called bred is from uk, and used to breed belgium shepherds, i refused to sell this person CWS many years ago in 2003, the dogs they call tamaskans are nothing but a mix of different breeds, just like the inuits, people who breed these dogs now say they have records of breedings and that they will become recognised breed with kennel club, so anyone reading this mail in uk who has a Tamaskan and has been told by the breeder it will be recognised by the k.c. please phone registration department and ask for Caroline Hallett, she will confirm they are not up for recognition, they have been breeding these dogs for years and still have not produced a type, so they are doing something very wrong, Bluestag took some of the cross bred dogs to finland and she lived there, then some dogs came back to the uk, and people where told they now had wolf content, but no one knows if they do, with only this persons word to say so, i would take it very lightly what she has said about wolf content, funny she came home to uk when the CWS had got some numbers up, then suddenly the Tamaskan re-appears but now with wolf content,, MONEY,,,,,to make things clear the inuit, british inuit, have been bred in uk for some 15 yrs according to there web sites, they still have no type and still can not become recognised breed, by the way the Utonagon was also by the same kennel Bluestag, when they died a death, then came the Tamaskan, it also died a death but then came back as the new tamaskan but now with wolf content, i have seen these dogs they are not wolfdogs, they do not act or have anything in common with true wolfdogs, they are normal dogs and act like them. but when you put wolfdog or wolf content in any advert people buy them, the web sites on the net now state the Tamaskans have wolf content, i wonder who is behind it all and who put the word out,,,,,,, it is all crap lies and deciet to make money from selling dogs. RONNIE WINDER UK.

Mr Winder. I think I would have remembered if I had asked you for a dog. At no time was I buying a dog from you. I do however remember you trying to get me to take a Malamute female from you though as the Malamute people had closed the doors on you and wouldnt let you use any of their stud dogs and quite rightly so. You speak of me breeding for the money!! you know nothing of me whatsoever ,but by your own admission you told me you live off your dogs. In other words you breed dogs for money and have no other income. I breed dogs because I love them and it is a hobby I have had for over 35 years. How many Champions have you bred Mr Winder?? I have bred Champions in 4 out of the 5 continents. Also if you would care to read our website correctly there is nowhere that we state that we will be recognised by any Kennel Club. Please get your facts right. What you are saying above is total b/s. You know nothing. You think you know why I came back to UK from Finland ..lol... because the cwd numbers were up... what a fool you are! IF I had wanted to purchase a cwd I would have done dont you think. The very fact that I dont have one is because I dont want one.

(to the people out there with the cwd this is not a slant on your breed, I think they are very lovely and have met many of them over the years) I also hope that you all close ranks and prohibit the so called aatu Tamaskan people from breeding from any of your boys. For those of you that dont know me check me out at www.blustag-arcticbreeds.co.uk Our Tamaskan do NOT have wolf content regardless of the rumours flying around. ALL of them have been dna profiled that have ever been bred from and will continue that way. Anything you want to know about the Tamaskan breed can be found at www.tamaskan-dog.com These rumours were all started by certain people that were refused puppies by our breeders. For the record there are a lot of people in Europe coming to us for our breed that have both the Saarloose and the Cwd and are very happy with them. Please ignore all the negativity in Mr Winder's post. These people are purely jealous of where we are now at.

OH by the way Mr Winder it is Blustag and NOT Bluestag...

[blustag]

Originally Posted by solowolf

hi Marcy, it will happen and there is nothing you can do will stop it, money is the goal, my first litter in uk all new owners signed contract that they would never cross breed there CWS with any other breed of dog, they did and it would cost me fortune to take them all to court to get my dogs back as it is classed as civil mater, as for the Tamaskan, this is not a breed of dog, it is not recognised in any country or by any kennel club, the person who is reasponsable for this so called bred is from uk, and used to breed belgium shepherds, i refused to sell this person CWS many years ago in 2003, the dogs they call tamaskans are nothing but a mix of different breeds, just like the inuits, people who breed these dogs now say they have records of breedings and that they will become recognised breed with kennel club, so anyone reading this mail in uk who has a Tamaskan and has been told by the breeder it will be recognised by the k.c. please phone registration department and ask for Caroline Hallett, she will confirm they are not up for recognition, they have been breeding these dogs for years and still have not produced a type, so they are doing something very wrong, Bluestag took some of the cross bred dogs to finland and she lived there, then some dogs came back to the uk, and people where told they now had wolf content, but no one knows if they do, with only this persons word to say so, i would take it very lightly what she has said about wolf content, funny she came home to uk when the CWS had got some numbers up, then suddenly the Tamaskan re-appears but now with wolf content,, MONEY,,,,,to make things clear the inuit, british inuit, have been bred in uk for some 15 yrs according to there web sites, they still have no type and still can not become recognised breed, by the way the Utonagon was also by the same kennel Bluestag, when they died a death, then came the Tamaskan, it also died a death but then came back as the new tamaskan but now with wolf content, i have seen these dogs they are not wolfdogs, they do not act or have anything in common with true wolfdogs, they are normal dogs and act like them. but when you put wolfdog or wolf content in any advert people buy them, the web sites on the net now state the Tamaskans have wolf content, i wonder who is behind it all and who put the word out,,,,,,, it is all crap lies and deciet to make money from selling dogs. RONNIE WINDER UK.

MR WINDER I think I would remember if I had asked you for a dog. I certainly havnt at anytime asked you for a dog. I do remember though you trying to get me to take one of your malamute females off you due to the fact that the malamute breeders closed ranks on their stud dogs and wouldnt let you use any of them, and quite rightly so. How dare you insinuate that I breed for the money. By your own admission you told me yourself that you breed for the money and have no other income other than your puppy sales. I breed for the love of dogs and as a hobby. How many Champions have you bred Mr Winder? I have bred and placed champions in 4 out of 5 continents! My breeding is thought out very carefully. For those of you that dont know me please check me out at www.blustag-arcticbreeds.co.uk Oh and Mr Winder it is Blustag and NOT Bluestag. It is Belgian Shepherds and NOT Belgium Also we are not advertising the fact that we have approached the KC to get our breed recognised. Nowhere on our site www.tamaskan-dog.com is this mentioned. Please get your facts right. You do not know me at all and your insinuations are insulting to say the least. Also your comments about why I returned from Finland to UK is total b/s. I came back due to the increase in UK of cwd... what a load of rubbish. If I had wanted a cwd I would have bought one. The reason I dont have one is because I dont want one... simple.

This is no disrespect to the cwd owners out there. I love the breed and have met many throughout US and Europe. For the record there are now several people who have the cwd and the saarloose buying Tamaskan for whatever their reasons. We also have more people being screened as I write this post. This is a lovely breed and easy to manage which is why people like them. Please ignore all the negativity going on written by people who have axes to grind such as Mr Winder. Also what is common between the Alba breeder and the US breeders Conchur and Takari is that these people have all along with others been refused Tamaskan puppies for genuine reasons.

Note to Mr Winder. I suggest that you direct your energies elsewhere to where they would be more useful such as screening your puppy purchasers thoroughly instead of printing such garbage as above!