CzW ownership in UK

[Rona]

Originally Posted by masairotts

Something that would be a great help to us is how the percentage wolf is calculated in the Czezhs,is it from following the breedine lines or is some other method used.
Paul

There was recently a discussion on this problem on the Polish section. It seems it's calculated on the basis of the herd books, i.e. dog/wolf puppy has 50% wolf's blood. If the hybrid has puppies with another dog they have 25%, etc. I'm not sure (I'm not a specialist- Margo or Przemek will probably be able to explain that better), but the calculations do not take into consideration the input of wolf's blood in GSDs. But on the other hand, if it's claimed now by GSD Kennel Clubs that GSDs do not have much in common with wolfs, the calculations could be correct and justified. Since for several generations now the Czechs have been mixed only with other Czechs, the amount of wolf's genetic material in them fluctuates around 25-30%

[belgshep]

Thanks Rona,I have been looking at a couple of pedigrees and related documents stating such figures as 25.4365% how can anyone come up with such a highly accurate figure,it makes no sense to try to get to four decimal places without highly accurate DNA testing which is currently not available.
Paul

[Rona]

Thanks Rona,I have been looking at a couple of pedigrees and related documents stating such figures as 25.4365% how can anyone come up with such a highly accurate figure,it makes no sense to try to get to four decimal places without highly accurate DNA testing which is currently not available.

This is just a result of pure theoretical calculations. Besides, genetics does not operate that systematically and distribution of genes is not always even, as far as I remember from school
DNA testing would be a good idea, but as you say, it's unavailable and it could also backfire, if it turned out that the Czechs have wolf's blood both from their wolves' great grandparents AND GSDs.
In my opinion, your main line of argument should follow two paths:
1. The Czechs have been mixed only with other Czechs for so many generations now, that they are no more "wolfish" than other dogs. Besides, if the amount of wolf's genes does not make them wild now, why should it in the future if it remains more or less stable.

2. Wolves (in fact - the ancestors of ALL dogs!!!) ARE NOT DANGEROUS animals. They attact only when hungry, just like packs of wild dogs. In wilderness, there are only rare cases of single packs that hunt farm animals, never people. I 've recently read that in Poland roughly 10% of the wolf population is responsible for over 80% of the farmers' damages. Most wolves fear humans and keep away from them. Some people in some big cities seem to be more dangerous than wolves
Why don't you get in touch with wolveparks' authorities (in Woburn, etc.) Maybe they could help you by explaining to DEFRA the true nature of wolves! Fear stems from ignorance!

Another idea is to prepare and put on the forum a questionnaire for the Czechs owners asking them about their dogs' behaviour and temperament It'd be easier for people to answer specific questions rather than write compositions on "how great my dog is", and on the other hand - such evidence would be more objective, systematic and 'scientific', thus - more comparable and realible (eg. the survey could include such questions as: how many times has your dog bitten a human or another animal, etc. Does it attack strangers, How does it co-exist with other dogs/animeal , how does it behave when/ if... and give options, etc. ) These are only suggestions, of course

[Philippe]

Originally Posted by Remo

The link to the pdf with info about the origin and wolf content of the early GSD was hard to make out. Does anyone have a copy of this stuff that's legible?

Hi, all,

It's my understanding this scan had been published by Ann Drasselhaus (I'm not sure about the spelling of the name...). May be you can find some contact on the Internet using a search engine...

Philippe

[Mosi]

hey guys,
im really sorry ive had a lot of very very bad problems for a few months, college, family, friends and life.
BUT id like to inform you that the petition is doing very very VERY well, ok so we have over 300 signatures so far, ok im going to do a forum trawl today and post it at some friendly ones I visit which should boost the marks up.
I hope that we do get to 500 but 400 would probably be just as great. I will then ask you all to email copys of this, and or print it out and mail it to defra and the kennel club! I dont know maybe this will work, but tonight im going to drag my fellow czech lover wyla into my corner so we can make a selection of poster based images. Anyway email it around at will the link is here:

http://www.thepetitionsite.com/takea...04169&sign
Again a big shout out and thanks, for everyones support, love and kindness, im proud to be a member of such a great site!

[belgshep]

Just to update you,there is a meeting due to take place with DEFRA in the next couple of weeks.
Paul

[Mosi]

ooo fingers crossed all around then

[slarman]

Hi Paul,
I'm an interested party re:Wolfdogs.I'm in Australia,where there are no Wolfdogs,however we would have the same problems as in the UK.However,if the UK gov't changed their rules Australia probably will too,as we still follow alot of UK &USA rulings,this would have to be tested when some dogs were imported here.I'd love to import but it's very expensive.I hope you are successful in your quest.
Simon

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Hi,

several German members tried to send messages and votings to your adress and couldn´t deliver their mail. There must be something wrong.

Gr. Ina

[belgshep]

I have just received the following from DERFRA which does show that we still have a chance if our European friends will help us to get ther point across that these are treated in the same way as any other dog.
perhaps some of you could email DEFRA which I am sure would help our cause.

I explained in my previous email that all species of Canidae are listed under the DWAA except Canis familiaris, the domestic dog, and a couple of other exceptions. The Act does not officially classify species in terms of 'breeds' at all and makes no mention of either Czech wolfdogs or German Shepherd dogs either way. Rather, under the current legislation, the question is therefore whether these animals should be considered to be Canis familiaris or not. Our current understanding is that Czech wolf dogs are not generally considered to fall within Canis familiaris and that they should therefore be licensed. However, local authorities are the body charged with adminstration of the legislation and are able to decide that such hybrids should be treated as domestic dogs if they consider that this is appropriate. The standard caveat is that, ultimately, only the courts can definitively interpret the legislation.

I also explained that the Act was under review and that although the consultation exercise ended on 20 September 2004, we would look at any information you wished to submit in support of a case to remove a species from the list. This is still the case. However, as the Act itself deals in species and does not specify 'breeds', I therefore suggest that the best approach for you might be to consider whether its possible to provide information to show that these animals are widely accepted to be domestic dogs, Canis familiaris, and no different from other breeds of domestic dog.

Paul

[Dharkwolf]

The question begs to be asked: What sort of information is valid proof that a given animal is actually widely accepted to be Canis Familiaris? I suspect saying you love your dog and that it wags its tail when its happy is quite simply not enough.

[belgshep]

Very true but to prove that it lives at home as family pet would.
Paul

[ligerwolve]

Would sending books that talk about this breed as a pet help? What about showing pictures of dog shows or even information from other countries that except the breed. I have seen some beautiful photo's of pets here. They are some of children with CWD's, aswell as other animals.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by masairotts

Very true but to prove that it lives at home as family pet would.
Paul

The best idea would be to direct DEFRA authorities to the wolfdog photo gallery - every information they require is there.... pictures of CWD withe babies, families, lying on sofas, sleeping with their owners in bed, accompanying them during holidays, weddings, sporting events, participating in training, exhibitions, socialising with other dogs and animals etc. etc. What arguments could be better?

[oblivion]

maybe this mail from defra should be translated (any volunteers?) to the czech/slovakian forum so as to ask for help also in countries of csw origin.. just hope defra will pay any attention to it..

..the following is not a proof either, but: canis lupus sees a csw as a prey, just the same as it sees other canis familiaris.. in the zoo in prague, there are dogs allowed as visitors and when we pass by wolves, they come to the fence and try to bite my csw through holes in that fence.. they're so eager for her, a few times they even succeeded when she came too close.. i guess they would kill her and eat her up if they could.. when she was a little puppy, she had been curious about them, but now she's rather afraid..

charlie

[Rona]

Originally Posted by oblivion

maybe this mail from defra should be translated (any volunteers?) to the czech/slovakian forum so as to ask for help also in countries of csw origin.. just hope defra will pay any attention to it..

Several appeals have already been translated, but according to Paul.... with little response -I'm afraid it's hard for busy people to write essays on their dogs... I wouldn't been surprised if they rather preferred to spend time with them instead of advertising their pets
Maybe a little survey for CWD owners would be better, at least would get more response.... and the data obtained would be more objective and comparable?
Another suggestion - the Czechs owners could be asked in their national languages to send proper selections of their pets' photos.... . I suppose Polish CZW lovers would have a lot of fun doing that They put great CZW pictures into their forum messages..... Just look at the section "wilczaki i zwierzeta" on the Polish forum- CZW and other animals.... or "do wody hop"

[Angelika]

Hi Paul,

did you read the article "Wolfdog (not necessarily a full pedigree) - the best friend of a man" from Rona. You`ll find it at the first page below "Recently added articles".

It`s an absolutely wonderful article and you should send it to DEFRA, if Rona allows it.

Regards
Angelika

[Dharkwolf]

Let me see if I can help sort this out.

Up until a certain point, Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs were considered to be normal dogs in the UK. They could be exhibited they could be bred, the UK KC even recognised them IIRC.

Then something happened and this was no longer the case. Fair enough now you suddenly find yourself with dogs which are no longer considered dogs. Why?

1) Expert witness (Keeper of wolves in the London zoo IIRC) who testified under oath that any animal with more than 1% nominal wolfblood should be considered to be a hybrid.
2) Re-evaluation of an article in the DWA regulation which states that an animal which can reasonably be confused with a wild animal should be taken for a wild animal.

(These quotes are not verbatim as since DEFRA redid their website I can no longer find the regulation in question)

Anyhow…

That means you cannot keep Wolfdogs in the UK unless you register them etc etc…

You are up against a regulatory problem. This is a question of laws, their interpretation and their application. That’s it. Bottom line is that is the only thing that matters.

You tried to contact the FCI, but they naturally did not help since it is their policy NOT to interfere with what goes on in member states (This incidentally is common policy for organisations such as the FCI)

You talk to DEFRA, exchange e-mails, get into all sorts of convoluted discussions… and suddenly someone from DEFRA gives you an interesting piece of advice namely:

I therefore suggest that the best approach for you might be to consider whether its possible to provide information to show that these animals are widely accepted to be domestic dogs, Canis familiaris, and no different from other breeds of domestic dog

Which is sound advice as far as it goes… but how do you prove that a certain animal is widely accepted to be Canis familiaris? (especially since if you ask any expert they will tell you that now the nomenclature is such that Canis familiaris does not exist, but it is actually Canis lupus familiaris, so forget about going to see some expert on canid classification)

You won’t get anything from the FCI, they won’t accept photos nor stories, because to be honest those are relatively easy to come up with by unscrupulous people anyhow (you have to remember that DEFRA has to cover their back too, they have to respond to some minister or other) Ok so where does that leave us?
You have an opportunity to provide DEFRA with what they have asked for, and they have actually asked for documents, because that is the sort of thing which will stand up in court if needed.

Which documents would be acceptable?

· Pet passports. Above all others, pet passports would be the thing to provide them because they are specific for dogs (note, this was not the case for the old yellow vaccination cards) and what is more interesting they are actually delivered by different veterinary authorities, so getting a set of pet passports of wolfdogs (I checked the breed name is in there) from say Czech Republic, Slovakia (countries of origin), Italy, Germany, France, Poland (big countries in continental Europe, all of which incidentally have a significant number of wolfdogs in them). And any other passports you can get a hold of. This will give you international recognition of Czechoslovakian wolfdogs by veterinary authorities AS DOMESTIC DOGS, ie: Canis familiaris
· Export pedigrees (yes export pedigrees, not national pedigrees) The export pedigree comes in a form which is internationally recognized (and what is more is in several languages, including English) These are delivered jointly by the FCI and especially the national kennel clubs. Again, international recognition of wolfdogs AS DOMESTIC DOGS, ie: Canis familiaris
· Other certificates (dog show results, preferably from international shows, training certificates, in particular for working dogs such as rescue or police dogs… this sort of thing) Not nearly as convincing as the previous two sets of documents (as it is not clear who delivers them) but it remains a nice piece of supporting evidence for your case.
· If you ever got a positive reply from Nicole Wilde that is something which you might want to join to this too.

I suggest you get a set of these documents together, (Don’t make it too long, focus on the passports get a few pedigrees, if you can get some good certificates, preferably in English, that cannot hurt) make a dossier and sent it all to that chap with a cover letter and an explanation. If you like you can even make a statement about wolfdogs and have it be signed by however many people. Get it all together and sent it all together…

Don’t expect that lots of people mailing this chap from all over Europe will help you very much, on the contrary he is just likely to ignore an avalanche of e-mails as opposed to one complete dossier. DEFRA will not do your work for you, in particular the work of putting together the information and then interpreting it. You must do that and then present this to DEFRA. They are actually being quite nice in allowing you to still present data so far after the September 20th deadline.

Anyhow that’s my take on this. I hope this will solve this issue (though it is possible that you might have tried this already)

I might as well admit I have a vested interest in getting all this sorted out so we can go back to discussing wolfdogs on the forum rather than English laws.

Anyhow I hope all of this helps, and if you have already tried it in the past, then excuse my somewhat detailed explanation of things you already did, and then think of something else which could work.

[Mirkawolf]

I totally agree with Dharkwolf, showing the pet passports and pedigrees is certainly much better, than to send millions of pictures, lovely tales and e-mails from all over the world.
There is no better proof, that CWD is normal breed as any other, than official documents issued by vets, studbooks or at the best, FCI. Because, I can have a pure wolf at home, and I can write nice stories about it, I can as well take hundreds of nice pictures of it and ask my friends to send e-mails about how my wolf is nice pet. But that won´t make a CWD from him, it still will be wolf.
On the contrary, I could never get export pedigree for this wolf of mine, I could probably not get a pet passport for him (unless I´d convince some veteriarian my wolf was for example malamute ) and of course, I could not show any dog show results.

I wish you good luck in UK and I hope, we will soon be able to speak here about something else, than situation with DEFRA..

Mirka

[Rona]

Originally Posted by AngelikaMenzel

did you read the article "Wolfdog (not necessarily a full pedigree) - the best friend of a man" from Rona. It`s an absolutely wonderful article and you should send it to DEFRA, if Rona allows it.

Thanks Angelika, it's very kind of you.
But I fully agree with Mirka and Dharkwolf - it's not very wise or practial to apeal to bureaucrats' emotions. When writing my message I was rather thinking of time constraints - it's easier to send a photo than write a letter, have it translated, etc....