What kind of dog is this - mixes by Passo del Lupo?

[wilupi!]

you are exaggerating,i have a dog of"passo del lupo"and i'm very satisfied of it!!!!

mutara don't look like Csw ,not passo del lupo's dogs in generals.

[wolfin]

Hi i thinks she will say about dogs, hes living in fabio kennels not about dogs from hes kennel.
i know dogs from PDL with exam, but this dogs not owner Fabio, but others people.

or.... not? (and me english is bad

Originally Posted by wilupi

you are exaggerating,i have a dog of"passo del lupo"and i'm very satisfied of it!!!!

mutara don't look like Csw ,not passo del lupo's dogs in generals.

[Deima]

I ment that dogs that live in that farm, and i very respect people which work with their dogs(that touch not only CSW owners)

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Deima

I ment that dogs that live in that farm, and i very respect people which work with their dogs(that touch not only CSW owners)

Just some information so we all understand what is going on.
"Fabio" writing here is not FABIO CASELLI another Fabio husband of Laura and collaborator in some way of Passo del Lupo.

I honestly was surprised to read that somebody sent a request for Publicity of litter AlaskaxLion because whatever is the origin of dog "alaska" (still a mystery to my knowledge), I know Fabio Caselli personally and I really couldn't imagine he would SELL such dog as a wolfdog.

As for PDL "farm" dogs, I really invite all to speak about things we know and not that we SUPPOSE.
Unfortunately when you have so many dogs it's very difficult to have a good character, because time for socialization is not always enough.
In general I do not like it when breeders have too many dogs as you say because of the "socialization" problem and the lack of time to deal with all dogs.
That is why in some cases (i wish they were more) the breeder PDL asks some friends (i have been one of them) to "grow up" and "socialize" some dogs for them allowing the character to open up.
So Daima in general I personally agree with you, I prefer seeing less dogs and more time for socialization. I have some friends and I don't really agree with everything they do or say.

I am very sorry of those dogs And let the owner of that kennel writte to FCI to recognise his dogs as a new breed because they don't look like CSW

I suppose you are speaking about the non certiifed dogs and not ALL dogs coming from PDL, Farm dogs or not; just because they are "farm dogs" it doesn't meant they are not CSW...

Last thing: although there are many dogs in the kennel, i can ASSURE you that some of these dogs have fantastic characters, socialized and happy and I would take them at home even if they are adult because excellent characters.
They are not the majority of course but these dogs are really special because with good character notwithstanding the surrounding conditions.

And, just for you, some photos of my terrible dog coming from "Mutara" Kennel, as an example of PDL bad CSW ...

Bad Standard:
10 months old


2.5 years old



4 years old


Bad Character
Some strangers visiting my house for the first time...

[massimo]

Sorry, i made a mistake, can an adm. change the photo of 2.5 years.
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b3.../oliverboy.jpg
thanks
massimo

[Pavel]

Dear Massimo,
its no discussion about other thongs as about the illegaly crossing of Mutara and CsW. Is no sense to discuss here about anything else.
Fabio Caselli false the dates for registration and put the puppies into register. Other thing is, that Mutaras were stopped in CZ, because it was registered same way as by Fabio - false the dates. Dont discuss about character, exterior etc., basic is, that somebody registered dogs illegaly. Its the main problem, which must be solved.
Today situation is, how I wrote above. Because Fabio done such thing, nobody will have in future 100% guarentee, if buy from him or from breeders, who breeding on PDL wolfdogs. From today every puppies, which will have PDL (born after 2006) in pedigree, can be hybrid and not CsW. Its a fact.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Pavel

Dear Massimo,
its no discussion about other thongs as about the illegaly crossing of Mutara and CsW. Is no sense to discuss here about anything else
...
Dont discuss about character, exterior etc.....

Strange though that you mention it NOW after my post (which of course I posted deliberately in such silly way) but you didn't mention anything after this post (which of course was the cause fo my reply...)

Well, i saw Passo de Lupo web page and found more information in other places, and sorry but this is farm of dogs but not kennel And i understant why these dogs dont have any psichic test and any working test, farm animals goes only for the meat not for work o for plesure, i am very sorry of those dogs And let the owner of that kennel writte to FCI to recognise his dogs as a new breed because they don't look like CSW....

I hope you don't want to say that one can write only to attack but not to defend the work of a breeder...OR DO YOU??
Some people and yourself are saying that you can no longer trust PDL as a kennel because of this "supposed" mutara experiment, that's putting in doubt the entire breeding work just because 1 "doubtfull" litter.
I would agree with you if I see many dogs from this litter being used by PDL and many puppies being sold in this way...
At the moment the only litters i see are coming from the world champion Issar Kollarov Dvor....

Fabio Caselli false the dates for registration and put the puppies into register.

Are you sure?

What is false of writing a LIR from a dog without pegidgree and making puppies?
Isn't declaring "FALSE" data illegal? I don't see any ILLEGAL thing done, maybe unwise or not correct for our breed and morally discussable, but not illegal.
Maybe i'm wrong so I invite you to give me better information that i don't know, but if i mate my dog with a whippet and the puppies LOOK like a wolfdog and get "very good" in one dog show, I can start a LIR and after 3 generations get a LOI, this would be legal but really a nonsense, do you get my point?

Today situation is, how I wrote above. Because Fabio done such thing, nobody will have in future 100% guarentee, if buy from him or from breeders, who breeding on PDL wolfdogs. From today every puppies, which will have PDL (born after 2006) in pedigree, can be hybrid and not CsW. Its a fact.

Again i don't understand:
Today there is ONE litter made with a LIR (not real pedigree yet) that can become a LOI (real pedigree) only after 3 generations.
If the dogs differ a lot from a CSW, the LIR should be somehow stopped.
Nobody is selling a dog with documents from a father that is not the real father or a mother that is not the real mother.
IF a buyer (i hate speaking about dogs as objects to be bought...) wants a dog from PDL Free from "suspected" hybrid, he can still do it.
There are strict rules about this and today DNA for ALL champion reproducers are obligatory. I know many dogs from PDL who are reproducing have given their DNA to the database.
If I want to be sure all i have to do is check the DNA and maybe buy from a litter with parents who have given DNA to database.
All i am asking here is to speak about things we are sure of, let's not base our statements on suppositions or "false information".
Can you imagine that because of your statement nobody should take a son of Issar coming from PDL?? it would really be wrong.

My personal position??
I don't think our breed needs a canadian wolf hybrid to be improved, and, until i see results, i do not think I will take a dog coming from this mixed line.
I think buyers and people should always be informed of what they are buying, and can choose as they want.
Before I choose a dog, I look at the pedigree.
I even "invested" lately on a mating to be done just because I wanted such litter to exist, because I am curious to see what will come out from 2 fantastic wolfdogs with 2 fantastic bloodlines.
If all breeders followed the example of a few who make thousands of KM just to use a male from a different bloodline from what usually is around, and not use only the dogs coming from very near and from within our own country, maybe our breed will improve and without necessarily using an "experiment"....
massimo

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by massimo

Can you imagine that because of your statement nobody should take a son of Issar coming from PDL?? it would really be wrong.

I think not. As everybody can see, he isn't an affordable breeder anymore: who fakes one time, can fake every time.

[Huan]

Last weekend in Slovakia we have been told that the removal of Mutaras from Czech Register was also influenced by high authorities in FCI and that the ban of Mutara registration is WORLDWIDE !!! So if at any point there should any Mutara be registered in Italy then this is made ILLEGAL. If somebody gets any hard proofs that any of the LIR registered dogs is Mutara or its offspring then the breeder has to count with serious consequences and registration of all the dogs and their offsprings will be removed.

[fizban]

Hello,

Well, we have 2 replies from the club, one is totally not useful, the other one I have no idea, we haven't been told anything yet. I'll post it if it's useful or not plain dumb.

However, as for the first reply, it looks like they couldn't care less about this mate with a dog with no known (official) history. If anyone inside the slovakian club, or anyone else with knowledge on the matter can help us with any kind of input it would be GREATLY appreciated. I've made an attempt in getting in touch with someone close to the slovakian club, but I haven't got any reply so far.

Keep in mind that this is NOT an Italian issue anymore since some of those "puppies", like it or not, are ALREADY outside of Italy.

[fabio..]

Originally Posted by fabio..

Altra incredibile bugia.

Ho certezza (e sai che è vero) che nessuno ha mai chiesto a Wolfdog di pubblicare la cucciolata di Lion x Alaska.

I cuccioli di quella cucciolata sono stati dedotti e inseriti in Wolfdog senza il consenso dei proprietari.

Smettila di pubblicare falsità o di fare affermazioni di cui non hai prove.

Margo, please stop to change my message !!!!!!
As everybody can see I reply to a your different message regarding the publicity of the litter and not to what upon written.

[wolfin]

Uuuu, wonderful, FABIO You cann speak and wright in eglish lanquage. Super.
regards

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

I am just curios because the object came up at the German Forum, Sangria was shown on the CACIB in Stuttgart last weekend, is there something new about the Alaska Problem?

Ina

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I am just curios because the object came up at the German Forum, Sangria was shown on the CACIB in Stuttgart last weekend, is there something new about the Alaska Problem?

Alaska's problem...? I think we can say it openly because it is already open secret that the Alaska do not exists and it is just another name of Ave Lupo Mutara - illegal mix which has beeen banned by the Czech and Slovakian CzW clubs and her owner saw the only chance to breed her in Italian rules which allow to breed with every mutt...

Anyway the story goes on... and it will move to higher official level of FCI. Beside of it the clubs in origin countries have some good ideas how to fight with such unwanted dogs of unknow origin.... More info will follow I hope soon...

But I hope also that the people and puppy buyers will have more responsibility than the mentioned breeders and nobody will buy such mixes or breed with them... It will be also risky for them because if any steps will finish with succes not only breeders of the mixes but also ALL their offsprings will be punished...

But I have another question about the LAW: could you tell me how it looks in Italy...? American Wolves are on the CITES list. And also Italy signed the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. It is in this country allowed to keep offspring of protected breeds without ANY permissions? So far I know in many countries it is simply forbidden... ILLEGAL...

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Margo

Alaska's problem...? I think we can say it openly because it is already open secret that the Alaska do not exists and it is just another name of Ave Lupo Mutara - illegal mix which has beeen banned by the Czech and Slovakian CzW clubs and her owner saw the only chance to breed her in Italian rules which allow to breed with every mutt...

Anyway the story goes on... and it will move to higher official level of FCI. Beside of it the clubs in origin countries have some good ideas how to fight with such unwanted dogs of unknow origin.... More info will follow I hope soon...

But I hope also that the people and puppy buyers will have more responsibility than the mentioned breeders and nobody will buy such mixes or breed with them... It will be also risky for them because if any steps will finish with succes not only breeders of the mixes but also ALL their offsprings will be punished...

But I have another question about the LAW: could you tell me how it looks in Italy...? American Wolves are on the CITES list. And also Italy signed the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. It is in this country allowed to keep offspring of protected breeds without ANY permissions? So far I know in many countries it is simply forbidden... ILLEGAL...

nono, you need permission of course...if somebody proves you have a wolf or wolf hybrid with you...

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

As far as I know is it possible to proof via DNA-Test if a European or American wolf was crossed into a dog. Can´t the ENCI be forced to order a Test on Alaska?

[Wolfsirius]

Margo wrote: "Saarloos alike crossings registeres as 'S'-litter Passo del Lupo... "

i just wondering that is there used SWH in those crossings?
If, who have SWH in Italy (there is not many in Italy, i guess)
(i know, need only one if want to use) but still. I guess, there is no SWH mixed in PDL dogs. Is only my guess, does somebody have correct information about that?

-Suski

[ste]

And...from what i saw, all participants to serramazzoni where real csw with real pedigrees...no "s.pdl" litters!

Hi massimo, same "s.pdl" litters were in the book of the expo but not in place(Sangria, Seiko..) but there were one that was in place but not in the ring, have you seen the man dressed like an indian with 3 dogs?I suppose that the young male is one of them,but they call with another name..
well, he looks like a csw...
Stefano

[massimo]

Originally Posted by ste

Hi massimo, same "s.pdl" litters were in the book of the expo but not in place(Sangria, Seiko..) but there were one that was in place but not in the ring, have you seen the man dressed like an indian with 3 dogs?I suppose that the young male is one of them,but they call with another name..
well, he looks like a csw...
Stefano

Dear stefano, please bring evidence to withstand your statement, because I will bring you evidence that what you say is NOT TRUE.
There was NO S.PDL litter at the show.
I have seen 4 out of 6 of them so I know quite well what they look like.
They should be sons of Lion Pdl and Alaska
The dog we saw, owned by the "indian dressed" people, was younger (less than 1 year) looked a lot like miky pdl head (even owner said it was son of miki but he didn't know much of mother) but stronger and very tipical.
He was short and quite long and had several white nails (lack of pigmentation, small defect)
I do not see any "sign" of being s.pdl and even no sign of being a "mutt"...he looked more like a csw and not the best looking either.
The S.pdl i saw had ALL a perfect structure and perfect proportions...better than any average CSW.
massimo

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by massimo

The S.pdl i saw had ALL a perfect structure and perfect proportions...better than any average CSW.

Sure... But I know many other breeds which have better structure and proportion than some CzW but still other breeds and also 'S' PDL are not CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS. And it is also visible... I will say again - for me Sangia will be better Saarloos than CzW... Maybe it is possible to re-register him and sign other breed in the pedigree?



Honestly I'm very dissapointed about these mixes - I really though they will be MUCH more wolfish... Mixes were though to IMPROVE our breed but to be honest - WHO will use such MIX which is worser looking than REAL CzW? I don't think ANYBODY will risk his opinion as responsible breeder and use such mix for breeding.... Anyway NONE of the serious breeders I know...

WHY? Because so far I must say I saw many PUREBREED CzW which have 100x better body and 500x more wolfish heards than these mixes...