Czech Mutara-Gate

[RPaul]

To Massimo:
it only means, that the informations about the italian breeders are too thin; it seems for example, that one breeder, who have aknolowegded in fife ore six weeks babys from five different she-dogs , that he makes it only for the money. Please, i wrote it seems. I see also, that in Germany are only 7 breeders and i see the great number of italian existing wolfdogs, owners and breeders, and therefore the official informations here in Germany are needy.
Regards
Ralf

[Jeffrey]

Exuse me, i'm a bit suprised?

First of all I'd like to state that I don't attend dog shows for very specific reasons.

And what do I see, on the forum lots of proffesional breeders or over involved poeple start to do exactly the opposite of what should be the general idea of a dog show, i.e. the promotion of the dogs. Instead we are arguing eachother, over power, status and even money, overlooking the most important of all. On this forum specific dogs get hammered for not being a real vlack or whatever. That means that our dog group is getting attacked from within, that is what politicians misuse against our dogs.

Sorry, bud even a hybrid wolf or dog or whatever you want to call it, will be ascociated with our wolfdogs. So please be carfull about statement surrounding our own race. Even the hybrid wolfs and its owners should get support from us and they should support us too.

For me this is an exelent excuse to not attend shows and promote our dogs just by showing poeple how lovely, exteme thrustfully and safe they are.

I noticed, walking my dogs, that poeple without looking to a dog, just looking at its eyes get scared, agressive or whatever. This is because they dont know our dogs. So if whatever hybrid walks along, it wil be ascociated with our dogs too ans so on and so forth.

Be carufull,

Big howl,

Jeffrey

[Jeffrey]

After writing my first respond, I read the second article, this fully supports my statements.

People, please be aware of what you are saying and doing, it aint about the most beautifull dog its about promotion of our and comparable dogs or hybrids.

Howl,

Jeffrey[/b]

[mike08]

Here a short consideration!

A crossing between shepherd dog and an canadian timber Wolf ?
In his origin form the Sarloos Wolfdog is an hybrid of german sheperd and canadian timber wolf!
Yes I know maybe it was not the right way how this breeding do that but in the end he has a pure lawn legend Saarlos Wolfdog in his origin look!

But if it wasn't an Canadian timber Wolf may this breeding wanted to breed a new Wolfdog race!!
Sorry I dont know how difficult and how the laws are to create a new racestandard and which peoples are permits to do that but in the end its a new dograce! Or not?

Greatings
Mike

[fenris]

No, no. By introducing fresh blood we dont create a new breed. It is something that should be done now and then in every breed. Try to understand what a dog-breed is. It is NOT a separate species - only a variety of a species. To develop and conserve a breed is all a matter of testing, selecting, testing, selecting, testing, selecting...........The pedigrees and the heritages are not goldstandards - as genetic variation may drift you off anyway.

Please read "the backcross project" by Joanne Nash. You find the article on http://www.canice-genetics.com (scroll down to the article.)

fenris

[Pavel]

My dears,
the discussion (specially from fenris side) have no sense. Nobody is against "refreshing the blood". But as I just wrote - owner of CsW race is not Mr. Hartl, breeding committee of CZ club or somebody else. Today is the race international recognised and owner are every owner and breedr of CsW. Such prosess like "blood refreshing" may consult before starting with minimaly all clubs of race in the world and if the "Mutara fanatics" today says, that its only our domestic "experiment" then may consult it with CZ club members.
About the whole "experiment" decided only folowing persons :
Ing. Nada Sebkova (breed Mutara)
Jindrich Jedlicka (breed Seda eminence)
Monika Soukupova (breed z Molu Es)
Ing. Karel Hartl

About decision were not inform members of CZ club board and members of breeding committee. Whole "experiment" is yet secret, no informations about HD results, bonitation and yout presentation codes etc.
So that discuss here, if is "blood refreshing" good or necessary or not is no sense. Basicaly "Mutara experiment" is done just from beginn against all breeding rules and club rules and in this sense is illegally. Sorry, we lived long time under the dictature and we are more sensitive on democratical principles. We dont think that "end justifies the means". All illegaly steps still be wrong through their targets are positive or doing in goodwill. Sorry am just so and I cant change self ...

[Meisel]

I get the idea that some people are trying to talk good wat is wrong!!!
The whole project stinks and is against all rules and regulations,so dont say its good for this or for that,if they want to improve the Csw lets do it the right way and not with some secret stupid experiment!!!

[massimo]

Hi all!
In the italian forum something very peculiar happened.
Margo made some comments to Andrea Pecharova (one of the Italian Mutara Fanatics as Pavel likes to say) and Andrea replied after speaking to Monika Soukopova Directly. After a long time it was like Monika and Margo were speaking to eachother again. WOW

I think this is usefull so EVERYBODY can make their minds about what to think about this reall delicate subject for our race.

Originally Posted by MARGO

Sorry, fo such errors in my text but we are in Slovakia right now and they have here really funny keyboards...

Originally Posted by ANDREA

I don't think it's correct to suspect about an official organism like Breeding committy of Czeck club as the members are all professional technicals, genetists and not "only" breeders with a great experience with wolfdogs.

Originally Posted by MARGO

Dear Andrea, Czech breeding comittee is not an HOLY COW. They are not right in all situation. Some of them are not active anymore. Other are not experts. You say they are professionals. You want an example­? Nada Sebkova - member of breeding comitte. Number of owned CLC = 0. Number of bred CLC = 0. Activity in the club = 2 years - since she is the owner of Mutara. She has really no BASIC information about CLC.
But what is most important - even the breeding committee made of REAL professionals have NO RIGHT to include such mixes into breeding.
And last - if you want to know the opinion about such mixes made by really experienced people (allevatori con grande bagaglio d'esperienze con il Clc) - it is simple - they are against. Slovakian Club made of people which have more experienced then the whole people from Mutara club already send OFFICIAL prostest to the Czech Club...

Originally Posted by ANDREA

So they took the Canadian wolf as good JUST to see if this idea could really work (only for this). If it succeeds then there is already a Carpatian wolf ready to try the experiment as for the 4 points in the article.

Originally Posted by MARGO

Andrea, I know you have no bigger contact with Czech Club. Dont be angry but I sure your only source about what is going on during the Czech Club meetings is Monika. Right­? So small explanation - we asked the Mutara people and what you write is not true. They did not wanted to asure us they will not use them - if they will make it we will stop the prostest because I have nothing against if Mrs. Sebkova or Mr. Jedlicka OWN and BREED mixes. But I have a LOT against when they want to use such mixes to breed with CLC.
The true is only one - if some of these mixes will be HD-free they will use them for CLC breeding. You know why­? They registered this dogs as CzW.WHY­? If they would only to watch the HD they do not need to register such dogs. They just can print pedigrees at home without any authorisation from the Czech Club. It would be enough for an experiment. But they do not want an experiment. They are just missleading people like you. They want this dogs to be included in the breeing. And this is the reason why they registered the whole litter and they make the bonitation and shows. They try to fullfil the conditions of the Czech Kennel Club which are needed to REGISTER this dogs as CLC....

Originally Posted by KIKA

The German shepard is not coming from a doubtful origin, it comes from the breeders of the army were the puppies are not registred in the civil Genealogic Book (written in Hartls second article) and his descendants will be used only for scientifical goal in monitoring HD factor.

Originally Posted by MARGO

Zikika - it is a LIE. Really. Everyone from Czech Republic can show you an article from one of the most famous Czech dog magazines where Hrach - owner of Armin - writes that he has no idea about the origin or Armin. He writes he thinks in his line can be even a Malamute. He BECAME an CLC first after the registration of the Murata crossings. The people from Mutara Club had to write it in the papers because in other case they will never get an registration....
This article written by Hrach was posted by Mrs. Kaufmanove (kennel od Uhoste) on the forum on the Czech Club pages but is was removed by the members of the Czech breeding comittee. Why­? You know the answer - the were affraid because it is true....

THIS IS ANDREA/MONIKA ANSWER:
Here are some clarifications from Monika Soukupova, one of the Breeding board of Czeck club
Both Hybrids were judged in the dog show because according to the CMKU rules, the subjects which are written in the Register (the one for new races or test litters) must participate at least at 2 shows obtaining at least very good, so our initial program has changed.
Of course the better evaluation cannot be excluded as CAC but it doesn't mean anything
-What Margo wrote about Armin is really false. The list of the levels obtained is really long: ZM, ZVV 1, ZVV 2 (kind of IPO 1,2,3), ZPU - 1, ZPU -2, ZPS -1,(special track 1 -2) ZPO -1(special defence), TART 1 - 3 (kind of SCH), SPT -1, 2, 3, (special track 1 -3 Tart) OPT 1 -2 (special defence 1, 2 - Tart ). Armin is prepared for participating to the Republic defence and if he enters in the limits he can have OPT 3, special defence. He really cannot do better.
A dog with problems or without defence qualities wouldn't even be able to do OPT 1.
Margo has never seen him in her life, she didn't mention which military gave her the information and so her speaches are worth nothing.
We saw him while he was working and it was a pleasure to see him.
Armin's mother is Gerda z PS (PS è means Pohranièní stráže, boarder guard) his father comes also from PS Libìjovice ; unfortunately Hrach really doesn't know his name because when he took the puppy it was in order to make him grow up with the wolf and didn't care about anything else, he didn't know if the puppy would have survived to the wild education of the she wolf. Puppy survived and he started to work with him and he didn't loose his working attitude not even after being grown up by the wild wolf behaviour. We think that the hybrids have a very good character also because they have Armin's blood, not only because of good socialization. (those who saw the bonitation say they behaved even better than some wolfdogs that already tested bonitation before)
-Concerning HD, Dr Sterc is one of the most severe in the world, maybe it is useless but we still stay with him.
Int the last years very little quantity of CSW are A or B in CZ.
If we go to make Xrays in Poland a HDC in CZ was considered perfect A
We have various examples: some time ago I was with Mrs. Nekvasilova in poland with Qeron. I wanted to compare the results because vet said they were ok and Sterc said they were D!
We also brought Ohnivak who was HDC and doctor in poland said they were really good Xrays.
What must we think, one says a dog is healthy and another says he is ill. Who is right? Who can judge them?

However the hybrids are judged buy Sterc as A and B
Both the females are above the average of wolfdogs in CZ.
It would be stupid not to mate them and observe how things evolve.
But we don't want to observe only F2 but the development and variations from F1 to F4. this wasn't done 50 years ago because HD was not monitored.
We have the hybrids but we don't have the conditions of the Boarder Guards. This is the difference, but at least we have the register at CMKU. It's importatn to know that the genealogic book
is at the ÈKS ( Èeský kynologicky svaz ).
The two books are separate. To monitor the F1-F4 hybrids is and will be difficult, without economical income and without future.
The people that allowed us to participate to this study know and it is difficult to find others.

We are not Boarder Guards, when a soldier received a dog he shoud prove what he could do without comments. It's impossible to abuse of the actual hybrids.
They are not a menace for anyone and for real CSW lovers as an insurance for this Ing. Hartl's name should be enough, he created the breed.
-It's not true that I made bonitation alone. Ing. Hartl was with me, he was key person and without him they could not be selected. Other present people were Ing. P. Laufkova as member of Club. other people not from club were present (even Andrea that is writing)
-Why do Hybrids provocate so much hatred, they are not an illness.
- For what artificial insemination is concerned, if you manage to take sperma from wolf, documentating the thing, please let us know...instead, inseminating the shewolf, who will let us? ZOO? Zoo obviously could not accept. Even if they would, we should do it under narcotics. But it's easy that the dog would be stressed and not be pregnant. We took in consideration all variants, but to do something is not so easy as to write them. Simply when Hrach informed us about the litter (both subjects corresponded generally to our request to monitor HD) we took the occasion, there is nothing else under that.

FOR MARGO FROM ANDREA
It seems to me that you appreciate a lot the work from Slovaks but why do you think if they worked so well (i have nothing against slovaks) why has thei puppy production decreased so drastically?)
I tried to express my opinion always writing the origins of my information, i tried to translate from Czeck to italian what I thought was important, specifying were my information came from, not like you, you said you read on a paper but don't remember the name, you say you remember that Armin is not pureblood, don't make me laugh, specify well the names were you get your informations, only this way you can be believable.

[massimo]

Of course after all this translating work I would like to express my own opinion.
If what is said by the EXPERIMENTATORS is true, that they only want to monitor HD evolution, that they will not use and mix with CSW, well honestly I cannot be against this.
Of course, the dog show was really a bad move.
in italy a dog without pedigree can participate to a show but cannot be CAC or BOB.
Also Ing Hartl's articles are too old, something Official should be written by the club or Hartl himself in order to clarify the situation once and for all.
Not saying anything puts a lot of maybe useless suspect on something THEY say is CLEAN!.
However, I truly hope Margo and Pavel are wrong and that it's really JUST and experiment to be monitored.
I have some doubts, but some hopes.
Your faithfull translator
Massimo

[fenris]

Thank you very much Massimo ! - for this extensive translation.
Interesting indeed.
fenris

[mijke]

Hi Massimo ,

Thank you very much for the hughe translation work!
I am very glad that someone did all this work
So we all can understand more what is going on.

This week I did try to translate all kind of texts with translation machines of internet, and the results were very bad

So I am very grateful for your work!

greetings
Mijke

[Pavel]

Hi Massimo,
as I see, you dont understand yet everything correct. Let me please put here some corrections of facts :

Originally Posted by massimo

If what is said by the EXPERIMENTATORS is true, that they only want to monitor HD evolution, that they will not use and mix with CSW, well honestly I cannot be against this.

Am 100% agree with you and nobody would protest here against such experiment. But excuse me, just in the basic school we learn some basically principles of every experiment which must every experimentator made before the experiment :
1. Set the experiment target
2. Choice the way, how try go to the target
3. Set exactly conditions of experiment and his rules

I never saw something from this 3 points (excl. very generally proclamation about HD improvement). The "experimentators" settting some rules as well (like take participation on the shows outside the competition, if will be by every hybrid not 100% negative HD, then the experiment finished immediatelly etc.) - dont forget, that it was made first on 15.9.2003 and the hybrids were registered on end of Mai 2003 !!! But this rules dont keep. As I said in last year, I feel that they want to use hybrids in any case and first argumentate with HD improvement, when hybrids will be not HD-free, then setting the rules on other argument (e.G. exterior or character improvement). And in the time (only not whole year) shows, that I was true. Minimally one hybrid is not HD-free and "experiment continued.

Originally Posted by massimo

Of course, the dog show was really a bad move.
in italy a dog without pedigree can participate to a show but cannot be CAC or BOB.

Massimo and everybody, who dont understand it yet. Mutara hybrids have a CsW pedigree just now !!! Only not regulary pedigree, but pedigree from "support register" which is using only for mixing some dogs without origin to the pure breed. Its true, that this pedigree is not full valid like normally. But such dogs can participate on normally shows, get the all titules. Only on International dog shows cant get CACIB, because register is a national registration and that is dont accept fully on international level.
If today come somebody with Mutara hybrid to italian show, then MUST be valuate oficially in ring, only dont get titules. But can be, of course, winner of class and in the case, then nobody get a titules as well, then can get BOB in Italy as well. Its a fresh information, which I get yesterday in Czech kennel Club (CMKU).

Originally Posted by massimo

Also Ing Hartl's articles are too old, something Official should be written by the club or Hartl himself in order to clarify the situation once and for all.
Not saying anything puts a lot of maybe useless suspect on something THEY say is CLEAN!.

I accept very much the work of Mr.Hartl in the past. But I must say, that with Mutara case he made for him self a bad. As I wrote, I can accept everything, but not, when somebody write one and doing other. And its 100% true in Mutara case.

Originally Posted by massimo

However, I truly hope Margo and Pavel are wrong and that it's really JUST and experiment to be monitored.

I would like hope, that we are wrong too. But all steps and information about "Mutara experiment" shows, that we are right yet.

1. Basicaly information, which you dont understand yet is, that experiment dont go outside our breed, like says "Mutara fanatics". All 3 Mutara hybrids have pedigree of register of CsW. In the light this fact looks whole case little bit on other side, or ... ?

2. Why were beginn the experiment top secret and all informations still be yet ? If is it a really experiment only, then is no sense hidden something. Am sure, when if would be it really and seriously experiment only, then after publish his target, conditions and rules will 99% of club members support it.

3. What I dont understand (maybe am little bit stupid ), why dogs, which using only for HD heredity need a youth presentation, bonitation, shows and basically a pedigree ? If is it experiment only, then dont need oficially FCI HD result but enought to do it under a short simply subcontract with a veterinary.

4. If is it experiment only, then I dont understand the sentence in oficially opinion of breeding committee : "... 4. V pøípadì prokázaného úspìchu u F4 by chovatelská komise podala návrh výboru klubu na za¾ádání o povolení regenerace ÈSV tìmito registrovanými køí¾enci...." (4. In the case the documentary success by F4 would breeding committee put on club board sugestion about regeneration of CsW breed with this hybrids ...").

Massimo, please, can you put here your opinion on this facts ?

[oblivion]

mijke wrote:

> Is there anybody able and willing to translate the whole original article in english language?
> I should like to have an english version of this article, so I can translate it also for the Dutch forum.
> thanks in advange!
> Mijke

there is a recent post at the official CsW website stating that an english version of the official site should be launched quite soon..

actually, there are two articles on the mixes-topic by Karel Hartl:

15.09.2003: Attitude of the Breeding Committee towards the mixes registration
24.11.2003: HD & mixes - why?

i can translate these two for you, but i think i can't make it before monday or tuesday evening.. is that fine with you?
________________________
charlie + josefina eden severu

[mijke]

Originally Posted by oblivion

actually, there are two articles on the mixes-topic by Karel Hartl:

15.09.2003: Attitude of the Breeding Committee towards the mixes registration
24.11.2003: HD & mixes - why?

i can translate these two for you, but i think i can't make it before monday or tuesday evening.. is that fine with you?

Thanks in advange!!

mijke

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by massimo

THIS IS ANDREA/MONIKA ANSWER:


Armin's mother is Gerda z PS (PS è means Pohraniční stráže, boarder guard) his father comes also from PS Libějovice ; unfortunately Hrach really doesn't know his name because when he took the puppy it was in order to make him grow up with the wolf and didn't care about anything else,....
-Concerning HD, Dr Sterc is one of the most severe in the world, maybe it is useless but we still stay with him.
Int the last years very little quantity of CSW are A or B in CZ.
If we go to make Xrays in Poland a HDC in CZ was considered perfect A
We have various examples: some time ago I was with Mrs. Nekvasilova in poland with Qeron. I wanted to compare the results because vet said they were ok and Sterc said they were D!
We also brought Ohnivak who was HDC and doctor in poland said they were really good Xrays.
What must we think, one says a dog is healthy and another says he is ill. Who is right? Who can judge them?

However the hybrids are judged buy Sterc as A and B
Both the females are above the average of wolfdogs in CZ.
It would be stupid not to mate them and observe how things evolve.
But we don't want to observe only F2 but the development and variations from F1 to F4. this wasn't done 50 years ago because HD was not monitored.

Sorry, but as a veterinarian that is a breeder too I have to write something about it. I can´t follow this argumentation.
There has allready a lot of longtime research about HD-Genetics been done in the past. We allready know enough about how to decrease HD in a breed. Therefor the Mutaraexperiment is absolutely unneccesary.
The FCI classification for HD-x-rays is clear for every country. If I have such a big variation in classification, for me, as a person who is used a little bit to proper research-systhems, the normal way to go would be first to take a big amount of x-rays and let them be judged by official vets in several countries, especially in countries that are known to be quite strikt, like the ones in the nothern part of Europe. And I don´t mean to take the dogs there, I´me talking about sending the same proper taken x-rays (dog beeing sedated until musclerelaxation, legs properly streched and rotated inwardly).
If Dr. Sterc differs from most other countries, she may be strict but not good and experienced enough to do the job, I change the Veterinarian and that´s it.
If Dr. Sterc doesn´t differ I use the help of a genetic adviser (that isn´t involved with anybody in the club!!!) to set up a breeding program to increase the situation.
Looking at HD results all over the world inclusive countries that are quite strikt the situation of the whole breed isn´t that bad that you have to get into uncontrolled breeding experiments with two parents that are of unknown origin (even Monika says that nobody knows the name of the father of Armin) or a wolf from another continent.
If you really decide you need knew GSH or wolfblood in the population you should take your time to set it up properly, with extremly good selected parents. There are several stud dogs all over the world that are HD-free out of lines that are almost not used in czech breeding so far, it would be much more sensible to use this dogs first and it would give me the time to set up a experiment like Mutara in a proper way instead of head over heals if I really come to the conclusion that I need it.

They are not a menace for anyone and for real CSW lovers as an insurance for this Ing. Hartl's name should be enough, he created the breed.

I am a real CSW lover and for me no ones name is an insurance for such a secretly kept experiment. And Ing. Hartl didn´t create this breed all alone for himself, there have been other people joining him in this process, some of them are Slovakians and the Slovakian club is the one that is the garantee of the breed, nobody there got informed about registration and experiment.
For me an experiment that is set up this way and therefor the involved dogs too are a menace. I live in a country that reacts quite hysteric about wolfs and has dangerous dog lists.

-It's not true that I made bonitation alone. Ing. Hartl was with me, he was key person and without him they could not be selected. Other present people were Ing. P. Laufkova as member of Club. other people not from club were present (even Andrea that is writing)

I joined a bonitation with a constillation like this, Mr. Hartel was there, but in my opinion Monika was the key person.
By the way, the way the character test was done and the character of the dogs was bonitated, the next problem we will very likely have to solve is genetically fear aggressiv dogs.

-Why do Hybrids provocate so much hatred, they are not an illness.

Nobody hates them, we just don´t like the experiment they are misused for.
What nobody talkes about: Wolfhybrids of the first generations cause a lot of severe problems and they don´t really start with it before they are fully and socially mature - with 3-4 years, so problems with Mutaras can still occure.
Both bitches are said to be pregnant, that means about 10 new problems. Who is supposed to keep the dogs that are not used for the experiment, who is supposed to keep the next generations??? The army won´t be there for keeping and selection, do they want to put the puppies down they can´t use?? Have they till now even thought about it??

- For what artificial insemination is concerned, if you manage to take sperma from wolf, documentating the thing, please let us know...instead, inseminating the shewolf, who will let us? ZOO? Zoo obviously could not accept. Even if they would, we should do it under narcotics. But it's easy that the dog would be stressed and not be pregnant. We took in consideration all variants, but to do something is not so easy as to write them. Simply when Hrach informed us about the litter (both subjects corresponded generally to our request to monitor HD) we took the occasion, there is nothing else under that.

Male wolfs don´t produce fertile sperma out of breeding season, if you find a Zoo that lets you do this you could get Sperm from a male wolf under anesthisia then. If you use modern narcotics and do the semination at the right point of ovulation you can use a female wolf.
If you want to mate wolf and dog it normally is necessary that they grow up together a breeding project of this importance should have the three years of time this needs. There are European wolfs available on the market like there are Canadian wolfs. Crossing European wolfs with dogs has been managed before many times, it will work again, it just needs some planing and time.

It seems to me that you appreciate a lot the work from Slovaks but why do you think if they worked so well (i have nothing against slovaks) why has thei puppy production decreased so drastically?)

Like Margo I appreciate the work from both countries. I asked Dr. Sona Bognarova, member of the Slovakian club and club judge, Andreas question, her answer was: compared to the situation 10 years ago they have less puppies/year, compared to the situation 5 years ago they don´t have a decrease. Compared to 10 years ago they have less breeders because breeding, if you do it properly costs a lot of money, the country has gone through great economic changes.
I personally don´t understand why that has anything to do with the quality of the breeding work of a country unless you think that puppyproduction is something positiv.

Ina

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by stefano

It's important that the colour is in the standard just when the pedegree is issued, nothing matters if growing the dog become pink with pois green, ehehe!

Right. But you know what's funny? Mr. Hartl wrote on the official paper during the registration of the litter of the Mutara mixes by the Czech Kennel Club: "Mother: Lupina. Coat colour: wolfgrey"....hmmmm...maybe I drank too much during our holidays in Slovakia and now I see white mices.... sorry WHITE wolf...
It is really puzzling that even the official kennel club has been cheated in this case.... Or maybe someone of you really see BROWNGREY wolf on this photo:

Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad

it's forbidden to improve the breed with wolf blood.

It is not forbidden - if there will be a REAL need we can still use such crossing to add fresh blood. But we don't need it now - there is really no need to do it. The whole population of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs have about 4500 dogs (some scholar says a "healty" population must have a last 2500 individuals). So what we need is selection, propagation of the breed and breeders which breed typical Wolfdog (acording the exterier and character). It is all....!

Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad

How this "dog" has the pedigree?

There is always a possibility to register dogs without the pedigree if they are typical according the character and look. It is often used to build "natural breeds". For example we use the same by Polish Tatra Shepherd Dog - there are many such dogs living in mountains. Most of them are real working Polish Tatra Shepherd Dogs but they don't have pedigrees (highlanders don't care for something like this). So we make a bonitation of such dogs and if they pass it we register them in the registry.

But Wolfdogs are something different - they didn't developed naturally. They were an experiment which later was evolved to a breed. Every dog was registered - all had pedigrees. So there was no need to register any Wolfdogs without pedigree. Also the breeding comittee was against it - none of the owners of any mixes similar to CzW was able to register his dog by the Czech Kennel Club.

First the current breeding comittee broke this rule and used this way to register Mutaras.... Of course they had to lie about the origin and other features of this dogs and they also broke some FCI rules but they were successful and the whole A-litter get pedigrees....

Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad

I can speak only about our ministers here in Italy, and as a lot of them haven' t never had, or seen, o dog in their life, if they know that somebody cross dogs with wolves at present time, and sell them, I only imagine what will happen, a mess!!!

Italy is not an exception...there are more countriesgoing the same way. Now there is nothing what can be used against our breed - we are as pure as the driven snow...
But if the Czech breeders will use this mixes it will change...and after it all that's laft for us to do is to wait that CzW will be banned if the most EU coutries....Nice future!

Originally Posted by Laura/Vlad

it's written that the SWD is a crossbreed between GSD and siberian wolf (in a magazine is written tha it suffer warm temperature because its siberian origin); what is the truth, there is a differente between carpatian and siberian wolf?

Hmmmm....there are some false concepts.
In Europe we have only one wolf: Canis Lupus Lupus. It has been called as "European Wolf" or "Common Wolf". Canis Lupus Lupus looks the same in whole EU but differs a little bit depending of the region he is living. For example European Wolfves living in cold parts of Europe are bigger. European Wolves living in South of Europe are much smaller and have shorter coat. For Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs the founders used Carpathian Wolves - it means European Wolves living in mountains of Slovakia.

There are also European Wolves living in Siberia - they are much bigger that wolves we know but look exactly the same. But there are also totally different wolves - in Siberia you can meet Siberia Wolf (Canis Lupus Albus), in region of Canada and America also Arctik Wolf (Canis Lupus Arctos), Canadian Wolf (Canis Lupus Occidentalis) and other subspecies. Lupina - the mother of Mutara Mixes belongs to one of the North American subspecies - she is a white Canadian Wolf.

Originally Posted by Himmel

Lupina had her lucky day with Armin

I'm not so sure about it. Lupina was mated with Armin when she was already 10 years old.... There were 6 puppies born - 3 of them died. Nice example of responsible breeding, isn't it?

Originally Posted by Himmel

....the rescue of the CsW!!!!!

It's a pitty but it is not true. The breeder of Mutaras and owner of Lupina and Armin is not a big fan of Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. He even attacked our breed in an article in a newspaper "Pes" (one of the most know Czech dog magazine). He had no interests to help us....it was not his goal....and it is also not his goal now...

Originally Posted by Himmel

NOTHING that I saw in that article about the choice that took them from discarding CARPATI to using CANADIAN wolf is plausible

And I'm really unable to find a logical reason...

But ...there is no logical reason. There is no logic at all... Every scientists reading this theses will get sick because it is breaking the main rules of scientific research. They say it is an experiment which have to check if the genes of a Wolf (it means witout HD) are stronger than genes of a GSD (it means with HD). But:

- even if it will be checked by testing the Mutaras the only result of this experiment will be: genes of CANADIAN wolf are stronger then genes of a GSD (Mix). So for our breed they have to REPEAT the same experiment because Canadian Wolf is different than European Wolf so something that is true fo them does not have to be true for European Wolves.

- I read this question on the Czech Forum and it is true: how they want to check whether the "healty" genes of a Canadian Wolf are dominant if they mate a wolf with HEALTY dogs (and wolfdogs)? If they really want to make an research they have to mate HEALTY wolf with a dog with strong HD. After it they can see if the next generations are healty (it means genes of a wolf are really helpful) or not (it means wolfsblood don't help with fighting with HD).

Originally Posted by Pavel

According breeding rules of FCI is artifical insemination possible only in special cases, when just the same pair has had a puppies by naturally way and later come some physicaly problems.

But now we are talking only about an experiment so the FCI rules are not important.

Originally Posted by RPaul

A bad opinion is the meaning, we need more hard killers, whatever that means. Dangerous dogs may a race like CWD faster destroy than this Timber-Wolve-experiment.

That's right. I will write it in different way: the biggest problem for CzW by a protection work is they don't want to bite... Really. Compared with Belgian Shepherd Dogs, Germans Shepherd Dogs, Rottweilers or Dobermanns our dogs are really peacefull creatures...
Sure our breed was made for tracking and not for protection work. But as "real" working breed are recognized only dogs which bite hard and for fun (that's the point where we are attacked by other trainers and other "working breed" owners). So if we want to make our breed more "working" we have to improve this characteristic. And as Pavel wrote Armin have lot of exams but he is really not that good in protection work. So for improving this feature of our breed he is useless...

Originally Posted by massimo

It's a real DISCUSSION and we are not speaking against a wall.
This for me is positive.

That's right. The mistake Andrea made was she didn't explained she is writing the words of Monika. You know we are really sensitive to the words of Czech Breeding Comittee - if someone is just repeating their words it is really easy for us to find it out because we know all arguments of Mutara Wolfdog founders...

Originally Posted by massimo

Many italians are thinking that if it's REALLY an experiment and it's REALLY done to improve the race, then why not.

I really understand it. The same problem is in Czech Republic. The breeding comitee told to some club members: we made a GSD-Wolf crossing and now we will use it to mate with CzW because of HD problems. So the answer of the people is: "Why not, that's the way Hartl made our breed before". NOBODY have ever said to this people Lupina is a WHITE CANADIAN wolf and Armin is NOT A GSD. Nobody said there is no real problem with HD by CzW.

If someone is more inquiring - it means if someone is against it the breeding comitte members say to such people: why you are against it? It is just an experiment. We just want to see the heritage of HD a.s.o. This mixes have nothing to do with Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.
So the answer of the people is: "Why not, it is just an experiment which will not hurt our breed". NOBODY have ever said to this people the mixes are already registered as Czechoslovakian Wolfdog and this year will be covered (if they are not already mated) with CzW males.

So the answer to Italian people is: it is NOT an experiment and it is NOT made to improve the breed.... It IS just for fun of some people...

Originally Posted by RPaul

it only means, that the informations about the italian breeders are too thin

We already spoke about it with Italian breeders (they are also people which are angry about puppy mills) and we decided if someone is not interested in cooperation and is not sending us the info about their litters and dogs we do not advertise their litters.
Italy has the biggest amount of CzW breeders and it is not surprising there are also people which make it for money. But we can't attack all Italian breeders because there are also some which really care for our breed. And exactly this discusion with presence of the Italian owners/breeders is the best example for it.

Originally Posted by mike08

Sorry I dont know how difficult and how the laws are to create a new racestandard and which peoples are permits to do that but in the end its a new dograce! Or not?

Yes. Right. They created a new breed....hmmmm... Mutara Wolfdog. Sounds nice, or?
If they don't want to create new breed we still can pack up all Mutaras (the whole Czech breeding comittee too) and send them to the Dutch Saarloos Club. This mixes are useless for us and have nothing to do with Czechoslovakian Wolves but maybe it can help Saarloos people.? Do you want them? We will give you extra charge if you will free us from them...

Originally Posted by massimo

After a long time it was like Monika and Margo were speaking to eachother again. WOW

We already spoke with Monika about this mixes almost in all know languages. So Italian is just another one...

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

Both Hybrids were judged in the dog show because according to the CMKU rules, the subjects which are written in the Register (the one for new races or test litters) must participate at least at 2 shows obtaining at least very good, so our initial program has changed.

It is not true.
First - according to the CMKU rules the dogs have to be judged BEFORE writting into the Register. So they were registered without fulfiling the conditions... Illegal.
Second - you have to participate in the shows ONLY if you want to register the mixes as CZECHOSLOVAKIAN WOLFDOGS. So in this case it means: Mutaras are not an experiment but (false) Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and will be used for breeding for sure. And the words of Monika are only proof for it.
Third - you don't need to take part in the CLASSES with these mixes. For example: if you applied a dog for a show but you came too late to be judges you can still be judged outside the classes. You will not get any titles but you will still have official note and description. So it was not needed to apply Mutaras INTO the classes. Additional: it was also a real paranoia because the mix was also taking part in the Best Couple competition.... For what reason?

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

What Margo wrote about Armin is really false. The list of the levels obtained is really long: ZM, ZVV 1, ZVV 2 (kind of IPO 1,2,3), ZPU - 1, ZPU -2, ZPS -1,(special track 1 -2) ZPO -1(special defence), TART 1 - 3 (kind of SCH), SPT -1, 2, 3, (special track 1 -3 Tart) OPT 1 -2 (special defence 1, 2 - Tart ).

First - ZVV 2 can be compared more with IPO2 than with IPO3.
Second - it doesn't matter...
I know nice Malinois with HD-A, Working Interchampion title, with IPO3 and very nice position in the World Championships. But so what? Should I use it?

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

Margo has never seen him in her life, she didn't mention which military gave her the information and so her speaches are worth nothing. We saw him while he was working and it was a pleasure to see him.

Dear Monika - I never saw Armin. I never said that. But I have a judgement of his protection work abilities by someone who knows him. And I'm sorry to say it but for me his opinion is more worth that opinion of a just dog owner... Sure Armin is biting but not as good as some other dogs so if you want to improved this features by our breed you have to choose an other dog...
But...it doesn't matter...you don't care for character. You just want to improve the HD results. Don't you?

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

We think that the hybrids have a very good character also because they have Armin's blood, not only because of good socialization.

HEH? Sorry, but I saw one of the mixes on the training ground and it working abilities can be compared not with GSD or CzW but with autistic Husky. OK, I didn't see a lot because the mix tried to attack our bitch. Nothing big happened but it was not the only case according to the words of the mix owner. And don't forget the mix was very young - I'm really curious about them when they will be adult...

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

(those who saw the bonitation say they behaved even better than some wolfdogs that already tested bonitation before)

?!? And who saw the bonitation? It was made specially during the camp in Jetrichovice to avoid too many witnesses. I was in Hostivice when Audrey Lupo made the youth presentation and it was so hidden that I even didn't register it. After the happening some people told me that "German Shepherd Dog mix" (as they told me) also made the youth presentation...

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

Concerning HD, Dr Sterc is one of the most severe in the world, maybe it is useless but we still stay with him.

Whose decision is it? It seems to be the reason why Czech Republic have the worsest HD results of all countries. Do you think it helps Czech breeders? If yes than why they want to change it and only the breeding committe is against it?
If you think that only your Czech vet makes right HD-results why you let your puppy owners to go to make second HD in Poland? Why do you make the HD of your own dogs in Italy? Many Czech CzW owners have no money/time to handle like it so they are really injured because their dogs are HD-C and not HD-A from Poland, Slovakia or Italy.....?

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

We also brought Ohnivak who was HDC and doctor in poland said they were really good Xrays.

What results does Ohnivak have? HD-A? You forgot to mention that all dogs whith visible HD had the same result in Poland (it means they are also not HD-free in Poland). For example L'Rocco - (3/4) in CZ and (3/3) in Poland. And don't forget about dogs X-rayed in CZ. They have also different results depending from the vet which makes the judgement.

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

What must we think, one says a dog is healthy and another says he is ill. Who is right? Who can judge them?

There are some guidelines - I think Pavel or Ina wrote about them. There are different levels for HD and general rules to recognise them.

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

However the hybrids are judged buy Sterc as A and B

Hmmm...as far as I know ALL checked wolves were HD-A. So it means Armin brough problems with HD. But it is nothing new - it was well know: if you want to have better HD-results never use GSD (Mix). But in this "experiment" everything was made false...

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

We have the hybrids but we don't have the conditions of the Boarder Guards. This is the difference, but at least we have the register at CMKU. It's importatn to know that the genealogic book is at the ÈKS ( Èeský kynologicky svaz ).
The two books are separate. To monitor the F1-F4 hybrids is and will be difficult, without economical income and without future.

Main question: why did you register them if you don't want to use them for the breed? If they are separated? For a single experiment you can print the pedigrees at home - you don't need to handle them like CzWs...

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

The people that allowed us to participate to this study know and it is difficult to find others.

It is really surprising... I can't imagine any responsible breeder will take part in this experiment as it is. It is a real morass - no rules and at last nobody want to be responsible because if you will use the mixes for breeding with CzW also all these mixes owners/breeders will bear responsibility for it.

Originally Posted by ANDREA/Monika

They are not a menace for anyone and for real CSW lovers

Sure - the mixes were not a menace and nobody had something against them. But after you registered them in the Help Book of the Breed Book by Czech Kennel Club they started to be a danger to our breed and the whole story is the best proof for it...

Originally Posted by ANDREA

It seems to me that you appreciate a lot the work from Slovaks

Sure. I learned a lot from them... In Slovakia you can still speak with people which were by the setting up of the first CzW Club or some which remember even ealier times... I always appreciate people which work for the breed....not only people from Slovakia.

Originally Posted by ANDREA

but why do you think if they worked so well (i have nothing against slovaks) why has thei puppy production decreased so drastically?)

You want to have a honest answer? Here it is: it makes no sense to breed dogs if there are no buyers interested in the puppies. It was hard to sell puppies in SK so many breeders stopped with breeding CzW.
In opposite to it Czech Republic had huge increase of bred puppies in the last years. Why? Because there were many people from Holland, Germany interested in the puppies and what is the most important: Italian salesmen which bought WHOLE litters. So the Czech breeders produced as much as possible because the Italian dealers bought everything - it was no matter if the puppies were nice or not, if they were young or old. If a breeder had problems to sell puppies in CZ he had always the possibility to sell all remaining puppies to IT. And they got nice money for it. Market rules....
Now it changer already: there are enough breeders in Italy, Holland or Germany so only few people import dogs from CZ. Even the Italian salesmen started to breed CzW in Italy instead of importing dogs from CZ. So I think in the next years the number of puppies born in CZ will also decreased. Only good breeders with good dogs will stay on the market - people breeding for money will stop with breeding. Already now it is hard to sell puppies and some breeders gave up and don't breed anymore.
In Slovakia it goes in other direction: there are more interested people than puppies (not only from other countries interested in "Slovakian Wolves" but also directly people from Slovakia) so I think the number of litter will increase soon. Or if we will take in consideration number of litter where Slovakian dogs were used it already increased...
So even in Czech Republic there is huge interest in Slovakian type of dogs. And the announced litters listing are the best example for it.

Originally Posted by Monika

Armin's mother is Gerda z PS (PS - means Pohranicni straze, boarder guard) his father comes also from PS Libìjovice ;

Originally Posted by Anrea

you say you remember that Armin is not pureblood, don't make me laugh, specify well the names were you get your informations, only this way you can be believable.

Hmmm...no problem. And please don't laught because this point is the best example how the breeding comittee is lying the people in CZ (and now also the members of this forum). So back to Armin:

1) Monika Soukupova (breeding comittee):
Armin is GSD.
Mother: Gerda z PS. Father also German Shepherd Dog from kennel "z Pohranicni straze" in Libejovice. Hard to believe because I can say the father on my GSD-mix Dora is Mickey Mouse and because she has no pedigree you can not say it is not true. The same is Armin. These are just words without meaning....

2) Karel Hartl (breeding comittee):
Armin is a CzW.
Karel Hartl wrote on the paper for registering the Mutara litter: "Armin - Czechoslovakian Wolfdog without pedigree" (if someone is interested I can send you a scan). It is official paper send to CMKU (Czech Kennel Club) which CMKU received on 23.07.2002. The paper is signed by the breeder of the Mutaras - Mrs. Nada Sebkova (breeding comittee). It was the paper which was used to put the mixes into the breed book of Czechoslovakian Wolfdog (ok, into "Help registry")

3) Frantisek Hrach (owner of Armin):
Armin is an Mix.
In one of the articles about Armin written for the Czech dog magazine "Pes" ( no. 10/98 ) his owner - F. Hrach writes:

Czech:
"Hned od zaèátku jsem øíkal, ¾e ¹tìnì má hlavu ¹ir¹í, krat¹í ucho,¹ir¹í hrudníèek, trochu jiné oèi, ¹ikmìj¹í. Jedni hádali na køí¾ence, ¾e tam musel být ¹pic, druzí hasky,já pøipou¹tìl podle hrudníku malamuta. Pravda se ukázala a¾ kdy¾ se pøijela podívat dcera majitele fenky-matky ¹tìnìte. Tvrdila, ¾e nìkdy pøed lety tam mìli psa, co nakryl matku ¹tìnìte, køí¾ence z Libìjovic, kde se dìlaly pokusy s èsv".

English:
"I said from the beginning, that the puppy has wider head, shorter ears, broader chest, a little bit different eyes, more slanting. Some people said it is a mix, that there is a Spitz in it, another said a Husky. I thought considering the chest it was [a mix of] Malamute. The true appeared when the daughter of the owner of mather of the puppy came with visit. She told, that many years ago they had a dog, which covered mother of the puppy. He was an mix from Libejovice where the experiments with CzW took place".
So simply said he has no idea about origin of Armin.
This article was published on the forum on the Czech Club pages by Hana Kaufmanova (26.9. 2003, Subject: "Jeste neco k Arminovi" ["Few words more about Armin"]). It was removed together with other posts few days later as being not "politocal correct".



So we have 3 different versions .... but only one is true. Who is cheating? If you are interested just read this topic:

WHO IS ARMIN?

and take part in the funny game: "Please help the Czech breeding Comittee"....

And for all Mutara fans - here are some photos of the "beautiful, wolfish mixes that are better than other CzWs":
Ares Lupo Mutara
Audrey Lupo Mutara
Ave Lupo Mutara

[Jeffrey]

Dear,


How big can ego's be, its about the dogs, not about you all.

Kind regards,

Jeffrey

[Pavel]

Only for fun - here is quote from FCI Show regulation :
"... EXCELLENT may only be awarded to a dog which comes very close to the ideal standard of the breed, which is presented in excellent condition, displays a harmonious, well-balanced temperament, and is of high class and has excellent posture. Its superior characteristics in respect of its breed permit that minor imperfections can be ignored, it must however have the typical features of its sex...."

"... The only dogs which can be considered for the CACIB are those which have been awarded "EXCELLENT 1st". A CACIB can only be awarded if the dog in question has been assessed as being of superior quality. The CACIB is not automatically linked to the "EXCELLENT 1st” ..."

Is it fun or tragedy ... ?

[z Peronówki]

As I wrote before I made official prostest because one of the mixes was judged on the special dog show in Svetla in Czech Republic. There were two possible answers for my letter:
1 - Mutara is only a experiment (as the (old) breeding comitte said) and Mutaras have nothing to do with CzW. And judging the mixes on a dog show for Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs was a fault.
2 - Mutaras are registered as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs and can be judged on the shows and can even receive CAC title.
Today I received an offical letter from the (old) club board. The second is true: because the mixes were registered by CMKU (Czech Kennel Club) they are the same as Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. They were judged on this shows because they need judgement so also their offsprings will receive pedigrees.

What it means: Massino translated us answer which Monika Soukupova wrote to Italian people where is said: Mutaras are only experiment and not Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs. Now I have written official answer that is was just a lie....

I think it is an end for our discussion here because everything is clear - it is NOT an experiment and they want to use Mutaras for mating with CzW. It is the reason for all manipulations which the (old) breeding comittee made in the last two years. The people in Czech Republic had enough of it and it was one of the reasons why all Mutara people were removed from the board of the Czech branch of the club. In February there will be Club conference in Brno and I think mixes will be one of the main topics there...