CzW ownership in Sweden - Page 2

Per Olav · 19-10-2002, 23:29

Hi.
As Sanna writes, this may be a question of importance.
As both the Swedish and the Norwegian Governments accept the FCI
regulations, the F5 generation of a wolf/dog cross is regarded as pure breed.
The Saarloos wolfhounds kept in Norway are verified F7. What about the
F-number(s) of the present Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

Even so, the Swedisk Kennel Club in its press release states:
- The Board of the Swedish Kennel Club has decided that two different types
of socalled wolf hybrids, i.e. crosses between wolf and dog, neither will
be allowed registration or participation in activities arranged by the
Swedish Kennel Club - even though the wolf hybrids have been recognized
outside Sweden. The basis for the decision is that two dog breeds that can
be regarded as wolf hybrids, have been accepted for registration in the
FCI (Federation Internationale Cynelogique). FCI is the international
kennel organisation of which the Swedish Kennel Club is a member. In
general the Swedish Kennel Club recognizes dog breeds recognized by FCI.
The decision constitutes a divergence from normal practise.

Please note that the SKK consistently is misnaming the two breeds as hybrids.

Huan · 20-10-2002, 14:08

Quote:

regulations, the F5 generation of a wolf/dog cross is regarded as pure
breed. The Saarloos wolfhounds kept in Norway are verified F7. What about the F-number(s) of the present Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs?

The principle is that all CzWs should be F5. It usually so that the CzWs in
Slovakia are more related to the wolves than the Czech CzWs. CzWs in Czech
Republic are usually F7-F8 (with few that are F5) but in Slovakia there are
many dogs that are strong related to Rep z PS which was F3 and are F5-F6. I
know even about one CzW in Slovakia (and maybe there are a few more) that is
F4. But the average is F7-F8 I think. But you should remember that with
every few years the F average will be increase... I mean that in let say 10
years the average will be maybe F9-F10.

Greetings,
Przemek

Huan · 20-10-2002, 14:09

Quote:

The principle is that all CzWs should be F5

Small correction... CzWs should be F5 or _higher_.

Tina · 20-10-2002, 15:41

Quote:

But the average is F7-F8 I think. But you should remember that with
every few years the F average will be increase... I mean that in let say 10
years the average will be maybe F9-F10.

If they are F8 they should be "free" from the minimum 1% .. unless there is
wolfblood on both sides, and then you have to ADD the 2 before you divide,
thus keeping the % much higher ;(

Per Olav · 20-10-2002, 17:01

Hi.

Most interesting.
Next question: How to get an official verification of the present average
F-number of the breed?

Per Olav

Per Olav · 20-10-2002, 17:45

Hi.

Another elementary question - and please explain very slooowly because thats
what I have to do when talking to the legislator of the Ministry of Justice
;.).
Like me he knows nothing of genetics and like me have to be explained the
basics of breeding in a very simple way :-).

When a wolf/dog breeding programme is terminated, ending with the F5
generation, how do interbreeding withtin the same F-generation result in
generations of a higher F-number?

Tina · 20-10-2002, 19:59

Quote:

When a wolf/dog breeding programme is terminated, ending with the F5
generation, how do interbreeding withtin the same F-generation result in
generations of a higher F-number?

I am not sure how they do things in Europe (that is why I am here, to learn

but in the USA they divide the % by 1/2 .. in other words, if the
"wolfdog" is only an F3 he would be considered 12.5% and if bred to a dog,
the pups would be 6.25 or F4 but if he was bred to and F4, then you would add
the 6.25 and the 12.5 to total 18.75 since any breeding only gets "half" from
each parent, they would then divide this by half to state that the pups are
only 9.37 (less then 10%) but could be as high as 18.75 if they inherited
more "wolf blood" from their parents. So in other words .. there is no exact
% for each pup .. one could be only 5% while his littermate is 15% (in
reality)
as to the F factor, this would be difficult to analyze if you want to be very
accurate.

Villulv · 20-10-2002, 20:27

I suspect that Per-Olav means that if you cross between only F5 dogs, the litter must also be F5? Unless you cross with a dog of "no" wolfblood. Or does every generation since pure wolf increase the F with one, independent on the proportion of wolfblood?

Sanna

Per Olav · 20-10-2002, 21:08

Yes, Sanna, that's my point.
If a F5 is crossed with another F5, the result will be....?

Per Olav

Per Olav · 22-10-2002, 20:00

Hi.

This is a translation of a mail from the Chairman of the Board of the
Swedish Kennel Club:

Hello,

The only reason is the still ongoing debate in Sweden, regarding wolves and
the breeding of wolf mixes. As you probably are aware of, the leading
politicians in our two countries have a differing point of view concerning
wolf, and the Swedish Kennel Club chose for a number of years ago, to take a
stand against the beginning breeding of various wolf crosses and therefore as
a consequence of this, made the decision regarding the two FCI breeds that
have inbreeding of wolf in todays' stud book.
Ulf

---
Per Olav

JacobH · 10-01-2004, 04:31

Hello !!
I found out about this breed about a year ago now and I was completely stunned with its looks and all the great stories about their intelligence and all sorts of things (not so stunned by some doggs destructvie behaviour though = ) So well i contacted the Swedish Kennel Clubs to ask some quesions. They said that i couldnt register a CzW in the Kennel CLub and also said they were probably illegal because they were hybrids. I got pretty pissed cause the persons attitude got really bad as sonn as I mentioned the CsW. I was really dissapointed cause this is the kind of dog i always wanted. So the next day i called up Jordbruksverket ( sort of an athority dont konw what its called in english though) and asked the same quetions. They told me that they are legal and for a dog to be a "wolfhybrid" there has to be wolfblood in the last 4 generations. She was really nice and even mailed me the papaerwork required for importing a CsW. So when I´m moving back home (live in New Zealand right now) i will probaly get a dog, always loved them but my dad is an allergic so= (. so here to the questions !!

Does anyone konw about any CsW in sweden ?

Would it be wiser to start out with another breed of dog ( i like other dogs too so = ) to gain some experience before make friends with one of these beautyful dogs ?

Also is it possible to compare the CsW with any other breed, things like behaviour and maybe hoe hard it is to raise, for example is it as troubely as some Pitbulls (after what i´ve heard and read so no offence) or does this differ from each individual?

Kind regards
Jacob

Wolfsirius · 10-01-2004, 15:15

Hello,

I live in Finland, and i am breeder of Ceskoslovensky and a Saarloos Wolfhond. I am wondering comment you get from agricultur ministry about ceskoslovensky in Sweden, cause about a month ago they said to my friend that it is illegal. And our kennelclub said same, as i asked about to going dogshows in Sweden with my wolfdogs. it has been said that
saarloos and ceskoslovensky are forbidden in Sweden as a breeds,
not as an hybrids.
like example Fila Brasileiro and Pit Bulls are forbidden in Norway.
(I have Fila too, so i know) If you have some info as "blackon white" i would like to know a person who gave it to you, and contact it personally, cause to get with wolfdogs in Sweden would be very nice for us too. Can you tell me who was the person you speak with?

Kind regards; Suski, Kennel WolfSirius, Finland

fenris · 11-01-2004, 12:01

It is not illeagal to have a CW or a SWH in Sweden, but the Kennel Club doesnt register it. Since the Kennel Club organize the shows I guess it cannot be exposed at a show in Sweden. Even US-wolfdogs (unregistred) are in Sweden.

Fenris.

Minna · 11-01-2004, 12:55

Hi Jacob

I would recommend you to begin with another breed than CsV. In Sweden there is widespread prejudice against CsVs as we all know all too well. So, if you really like a breed; don’t take one before you have more experience with dogs generally. It is no good for a CsV Breed if you get into trouble with you CsV in Sweden. First dog’s owners always make mistakes and cause problems and if your dog happens to be a CsV people will be judging you and you dog much harder than they would if you dog were one of another breed. You cannot compare a CsV and Pitbull , they are so completely different breeds. CsV is very “original” breed and these dogs are behaving very “naturally” in canine way, and well, I would say that a pitbull is the opposite – a very manmade creature that has not much left of its canine origin.

Minna

JacobH · 11-01-2004, 13:51

Thanks for your replies !
First of to Suski. I think what Fenris says is the case, atleast i know that they aren´t illegal. Sorry but i don´t remember the persons name. I might have it stored in my old computer, but it´s back in Sweden so i can´t get it until June=(

Minna, thanks for your information. I totally agree with you about starting out with an "easier" breed. It wouldn´t only be the best thing for me but also for the dog so that i could care for it properly and give it proper training. Do wolfdogs work well wih "polarbears" such as Malamutes or Elkhounds? or is that also a matter of individualism. Kind a like those breeds as well. Huskies and malamutes are common over here in NZ so i run in to those pretty often and I recently saw two elkhound pups, never heard of them before, so i looked tehm up. Also really beautiful dogs !

I didn´t mean if you could compare them as dogs= ) what I meant was, si it as hard to raise and train a CzW as some and socialize Pitbulls or Dobermanns or whatever(just an example)? or instead let me but it tjis way, is it comparable to any other breed in mathers such as training and socializing ?

Also is there any good books i can read about their behaviour and how i should treat and train a Czw ?

I guess thats what i really like about th CzWs, as you said, their natural apperance. In my eyes they´re the ideal dog and all the stories about their intelligence and personalities just facinates me. I also saw some movieclips from a breeder in Poland. Beautiful !

Again, thanks for your replies
Jacob

fenris · 12-01-2004, 19:28

I understand you quite well Jacob. Huskies, Malamutes and wolfdogs do have similar qualities. They all look natural and original. One of the problemes with wolfdogs in Sweden will be the dense population of "wild game" in that region. It can be difficult to suppress the hunting instincs in a wolfdog. Even if the dog gets used to domestic animals, they can change in a moment when running off-leash in the woods.

Although as a first-dog owner you would not have to be re-learned as many other dogowners must be when aquiring a wolfdog. Read, learn, visit serious wolfdogowner and take the challange. But take 2, not only 1. What about a shepherd and a CW.

I asked a question about using a wired muzzle on this forum without any replies. I use a wired muzzle on my dog when he is running off-leash in elk, reindeer, moose areas. Even if the dog is well trained it will never be safe among "wild game".

Fenris

JacobH · 13-01-2004, 00:25

Thank You Fenris

Yeah we seem to have about the same Ideals about dogs !

Yes Wildgame, well in Sweden i live as far down South as possible so I would have to leave my county and go to for example Halland to see anything else than Wildboars and Deer. So ther´s no elk or moose. but then i would reallly enjoy some wood hiking up north with my dog or dogs and to get to the really big woods i have to go a bit up north in the country where there are big game. So thanks for pointing this out for, i hadn´t thought about that at all

I´ve seen some people using a muzzle on their dogs all the time when they go which i don´t like and woud never do to my own dog, but in this case when the dog is running around freely around animals which they actually see as potential food (or, am i wrong) i actually agree with you on the Muzzle. Also i think if a dog would kill for example a boar or a deer in Sweden it would get in deep trouble. I´m gonna look in to laws and stuff regarding that.

And about having 2 dogs, thats why i asked if CzWs go good along with for example a Elkhound or a malamute.

Also came up with a pretty intresting question with the whole thing with letting your CzW of leash in the woods. What would happen if it would run into a Wolf or a Pack of Wolves? Would the wolves attack ? If they wouldn´t attack will my CzW change somehow mentally by seeing "real" wolves or meeting them ? Maybe a stupid question but i think it kind a interesting, but I barely know anything about dogs just yet so.

Also how many wolfdoggenertaions have passed since the last pure wolf was in teh "breedingline"?

Thanks
Jacob

fenris · 13-01-2004, 19:07

I have had both huskies and wolfdogs. The huskies are much more zealous hunters than the wolfdogs. The huskies do not conserve their energy in contrary to the rationalism of the wolfdogs that restrict the effort they put in the hunting. Huskies can run at speed for hours. The wolfdogs prefer to stay in contact with their owners.

A wolfdog will not run off-leash in the woods on its own. You should alway keep your dog in a communicating distance. As long as being around its owner wolves will not be a threat to your dogs. Hunting dogs that runs for hours away from their owner (practised in norway and sweden) with tails up (domination sign) and barking will be attacked by wolves, -killed.

I met a wolf once. It was a single wolf. It was afraid of my dogs and run away from them (with my dogs running behind for a short distance).
I have seen tracks of wolves when running with my dogs, but they keep distance and out of sight.

Fenris

JacobH · 14-01-2004, 03:25

Okay. Thanks for your reply, it was very helpful.
Ofcourse i understand that will have to keep a short distance and have my eyes on the dog but i meant what if the dog picks up the scent of fo example a moose and takes off ? and i now realise that was sort of stupid anyway, cause if my dog wont obey me when i call it back ofcourse i can´t keep it off lease so.

But again thanks for your reply.

Latte · 17-01-2004, 18:20

Hi there..

I woundering if anyone now how to get this breed over the border in the most safty way.. The breed is probleby illegal in my country, but if I would like to have one anyway, is there anyone who nows that this has hapend and how they did it??

How to get a CzW puppy over the border from one coutry to another by car and not get court??

// Sebastian

19-10-2002, 23:29	#1
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Elementary questions Hi. As Sanna writes, this may be a question of importance. As both the Swedish and the Norwegian Governments accept the FCI regulations, the F5 generation of a wolf/dog cross is regarded as pure breed. The Saarloos wolfhounds kept in Norway are verified F7. What about the F-number(s) of the present Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs? Even so, the Swedisk Kennel Club in its press release states: - The Board of the Swedish Kennel Club has decided that two different types of socalled wolf hybrids, i.e. crosses between wolf and dog, neither will be allowed registration or participation in activities arranged by the Swedish Kennel Club - even though the wolf hybrids have been recognized outside Sweden. The basis for the decision is that two dog breeds that can be regarded as wolf hybrids, have been accepted for registration in the FCI (Federation Internationale Cynelogique). FCI is the international kennel organisation of which the Swedish Kennel Club is a member. In general the Swedish Kennel Club recognizes dog breeds recognized by FCI. The decision constitutes a divergence from normal practise. Please note that the SKK consistently is misnaming the two breeds as hybrids.

20-10-2002, 17:01	#5
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Elementary questions Hi. Most interesting. Next question: How to get an official verification of the present average F-number of the breed? Per Olav

20-10-2002, 17:45	#6
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Elementary questions Hi. Another elementary question - and please explain very slooowly because thats what I have to do when talking to the legislator of the Ministry of Justice ;.). Like me he knows nothing of genetics and like me have to be explained the basics of breeding in a very simple way :-). When a wolf/dog breeding programme is terminated, ending with the F5 generation, how do interbreeding withtin the same F-generation result in generations of a higher F-number?

20-10-2002, 20:27	#8
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	Elementary questions I suspect that Per-Olav means that if you cross between only F5 dogs, the litter must also be F5? Unless you cross with a dog of "no" wolfblood. Or does every generation since pure wolf increase the F with one, independent on the proportion of wolfblood? Sanna

20-10-2002, 21:08	#9
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Elementary questions Yes, Sanna, that's my point. If a F5 is crossed with another F5, the result will be....? Per Olav

22-10-2002, 20:00	#10
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Chairman of the Board of the Swedish Kennel Club says: Hi. This is a translation of a mail from the Chairman of the Board of the Swedish Kennel Club: Hello, The only reason is the still ongoing debate in Sweden, regarding wolves and the breeding of wolf mixes. As you probably are aware of, the leading politicians in our two countries have a differing point of view concerning wolf, and the Swedish Kennel Club chose for a number of years ago, to take a stand against the beginning breeding of various wolf crosses and therefore as a consequence of this, made the decision regarding the two FCI breeds that have inbreeding of wolf in todays' stud book. Ulf --- Per Olav

10-01-2004, 04:31	#11
JacobH Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: (at this moment New Zealand) Posts: 8	CzWs in Sweden ? Hello !! I found out about this breed about a year ago now and I was completely stunned with its looks and all the great stories about their intelligence and all sorts of things (not so stunned by some doggs destructvie behaviour though = ) So well i contacted the Swedish Kennel Clubs to ask some quesions. They said that i couldnt register a CzW in the Kennel CLub and also said they were probably illegal because they were hybrids. I got pretty pissed cause the persons attitude got really bad as sonn as I mentioned the CsW. I was really dissapointed cause this is the kind of dog i always wanted. So the next day i called up Jordbruksverket ( sort of an athority dont konw what its called in english though) and asked the same quetions. They told me that they are legal and for a dog to be a "wolfhybrid" there has to be wolfblood in the last 4 generations. She was really nice and even mailed me the papaerwork required for importing a CsW. So when I´m moving back home (live in New Zealand right now) i will probaly get a dog, always loved them but my dad is an allergic so= (. so here to the questions !! Does anyone konw about any CsW in sweden ? Would it be wiser to start out with another breed of dog ( i like other dogs too so = ) to gain some experience before make friends with one of these beautyful dogs ? Also is it possible to compare the CsW with any other breed, things like behaviour and maybe hoe hard it is to raise, for example is it as troubely as some Pitbulls (after what i´ve heard and read so no offence) or does this differ from each individual? Kind regards Jacob

10-01-2004, 15:15	#12
Wolfsirius Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 118	Hello, I live in Finland, and i am breeder of Ceskoslovensky and a Saarloos Wolfhond. I am wondering comment you get from agricultur ministry about ceskoslovensky in Sweden, cause about a month ago they said to my friend that it is illegal. And our kennelclub said same, as i asked about to going dogshows in Sweden with my wolfdogs. it has been said that saarloos and ceskoslovensky are forbidden in Sweden as a breeds, not as an hybrids. like example Fila Brasileiro and Pit Bulls are forbidden in Norway. (I have Fila too, so i know) If you have some info as "blackon white" i would like to know a person who gave it to you, and contact it personally, cause to get with wolfdogs in Sweden would be very nice for us too. Can you tell me who was the person you speak with? Kind regards; Suski, Kennel WolfSirius, Finland

11-01-2004, 12:01	#13
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	It is not illeagal to have a CW or a SWH in Sweden, but the Kennel Club doesnt register it. Since the Kennel Club organize the shows I guess it cannot be exposed at a show in Sweden. Even US-wolfdogs (unregistred) are in Sweden. Fenris.

11-01-2004, 12:55	#14
Minna Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 50	Hi Jacob I would recommend you to begin with another breed than CsV. In Sweden there is widespread prejudice against CsVs as we all know all too well. So, if you really like a breed; don’t take one before you have more experience with dogs generally. It is no good for a CsV Breed if you get into trouble with you CsV in Sweden. First dog’s owners always make mistakes and cause problems and if your dog happens to be a CsV people will be judging you and you dog much harder than they would if you dog were one of another breed. You cannot compare a CsV and Pitbull , they are so completely different breeds. CsV is very “original” breed and these dogs are behaving very “naturally” in canine way, and well, I would say that a pitbull is the opposite – a very manmade creature that has not much left of its canine origin. Minna

11-01-2004, 13:51	#15
JacobH Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: (at this moment New Zealand) Posts: 8	Thanks for your replies ! First of to Suski. I think what Fenris says is the case, atleast i know that they aren´t illegal. Sorry but i don´t remember the persons name. I might have it stored in my old computer, but it´s back in Sweden so i can´t get it until June=( Minna, thanks for your information. I totally agree with you about starting out with an "easier" breed. It wouldn´t only be the best thing for me but also for the dog so that i could care for it properly and give it proper training. Do wolfdogs work well wih "polarbears" such as Malamutes or Elkhounds? or is that also a matter of individualism. Kind a like those breeds as well. Huskies and malamutes are common over here in NZ so i run in to those pretty often and I recently saw two elkhound pups, never heard of them before, so i looked tehm up. Also really beautiful dogs ! I didn´t mean if you could compare them as dogs= ) what I meant was, si it as hard to raise and train a CzW as some and socialize Pitbulls or Dobermanns or whatever(just an example)? or instead let me but it tjis way, is it comparable to any other breed in mathers such as training and socializing ? Also is there any good books i can read about their behaviour and how i should treat and train a Czw ? I guess thats what i really like about th CzWs, as you said, their natural apperance. In my eyes they´re the ideal dog and all the stories about their intelligence and personalities just facinates me. I also saw some movieclips from a breeder in Poland. Beautiful ! Again, thanks for your replies Jacob

12-01-2004, 19:28	#16
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	I understand you quite well Jacob. Huskies, Malamutes and wolfdogs do have similar qualities. They all look natural and original. One of the problemes with wolfdogs in Sweden will be the dense population of "wild game" in that region. It can be difficult to suppress the hunting instincs in a wolfdog. Even if the dog gets used to domestic animals, they can change in a moment when running off-leash in the woods. Although as a first-dog owner you would not have to be re-learned as many other dogowners must be when aquiring a wolfdog. Read, learn, visit serious wolfdogowner and take the challange. But take 2, not only 1. What about a shepherd and a CW. I asked a question about using a wired muzzle on this forum without any replies. I use a wired muzzle on my dog when he is running off-leash in elk, reindeer, moose areas. Even if the dog is well trained it will never be safe among "wild game". Fenris

13-01-2004, 00:25	#17
JacobH Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: (at this moment New Zealand) Posts: 8	Thank You Fenris Yeah we seem to have about the same Ideals about dogs ! Yes Wildgame, well in Sweden i live as far down South as possible so I would have to leave my county and go to for example Halland to see anything else than Wildboars and Deer. So ther´s no elk or moose. but then i would reallly enjoy some wood hiking up north with my dog or dogs and to get to the really big woods i have to go a bit up north in the country where there are big game. So thanks for pointing this out for, i hadn´t thought about that at all I´ve seen some people using a muzzle on their dogs all the time when they go which i don´t like and woud never do to my own dog, but in this case when the dog is running around freely around animals which they actually see as potential food (or, am i wrong) i actually agree with you on the Muzzle. Also i think if a dog would kill for example a boar or a deer in Sweden it would get in deep trouble. I´m gonna look in to laws and stuff regarding that. And about having 2 dogs, thats why i asked if CzWs go good along with for example a Elkhound or a malamute. Also came up with a pretty intresting question with the whole thing with letting your CzW of leash in the woods. What would happen if it would run into a Wolf or a Pack of Wolves? Would the wolves attack ? If they wouldn´t attack will my CzW change somehow mentally by seeing "real" wolves or meeting them ? Maybe a stupid question but i think it kind a interesting, but I barely know anything about dogs just yet so. Also how many wolfdoggenertaions have passed since the last pure wolf was in teh "breedingline"? Thanks Jacob

13-01-2004, 19:07	#18
fenris Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Posts: 59	I have had both huskies and wolfdogs. The huskies are much more zealous hunters than the wolfdogs. The huskies do not conserve their energy in contrary to the rationalism of the wolfdogs that restrict the effort they put in the hunting. Huskies can run at speed for hours. The wolfdogs prefer to stay in contact with their owners. A wolfdog will not run off-leash in the woods on its own. You should alway keep your dog in a communicating distance. As long as being around its owner wolves will not be a threat to your dogs. Hunting dogs that runs for hours away from their owner (practised in norway and sweden) with tails up (domination sign) and barking will be attacked by wolves, -killed. I met a wolf once. It was a single wolf. It was afraid of my dogs and run away from them (with my dogs running behind for a short distance). I have seen tracks of wolves when running with my dogs, but they keep distance and out of sight. Fenris

14-01-2004, 03:25	#19
JacobH Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: (at this moment New Zealand) Posts: 8	Okay. Thanks for your reply, it was very helpful. Ofcourse i understand that will have to keep a short distance and have my eyes on the dog but i meant what if the dog picks up the scent of fo example a moose and takes off ? and i now realise that was sort of stupid anyway, cause if my dog wont obey me when i call it back ofcourse i can´t keep it off lease so. But again thanks for your reply.

17-01-2004, 18:20	#20
Latte Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 2	How to get a puppy over the border?? Hi there.. I woundering if anyone now how to get this breed over the border in the most safty way.. The breed is probleby illegal in my country, but if I would like to have one anyway, is there anyone who nows that this has hapend and how they did it?? How to get a CzW puppy over the border from one coutry to another by car and not get court?? // Sebastian