German sheperd dog vs Alsatian wolfdog - Page 2

Tina · 07-10-2002, 14:28

Quote:

Information of a possible cross between the wolf and the former German
sheperd
breeds in making the official and very much popular GSD would maybe make my
government accept the CSV as breed of its own.

I am very interested in this information too .. since several months ago I
made a statement to a group of people that "the wolf ancestor is closer then
they think" <I was talking about the GSD that my breed comes from> and
immediately some people went crazy calling my dogs wolf hybrids, wanting to
place pups into Zoo's etc. Believe me, I know how crazy people can get! I
would love to find more proof about the origins of the GSD (I do have Ann's
article) to place on our website http://www.shilohshepherds.info/

Tina · 07-10-2002, 15:07

Quote:

...and all we need to do is to show the experts photos of first GSDs breed
by Stephanitz and our F1-F3 crossings

))) He will not be able to show the
differences...

))

I would love to see a website devoted to this type of educational material!
I think it would help a lot of people better understand the truth!

Per Olav · 07-10-2002, 16:58

Hi Sanna.

Sure I will. But then as a private mail. I can't see the importance of
bringing his name up on a public list like this :-)
You'll have a copy of his statements as written on a Norwegian news group
as well. There's just a few on this list who will understand our language,
so why bother translating until it's really necessary:-)

Regards

Villulv · 07-10-2002, 19:06

He must have been an idiot.

Is this a book? As I know the german language it shouldn=B4t be any problem reading it.

Sanna

Per Olav · 07-10-2002, 20:18

Hm.
If I'm not completely out on the waves :-)

In the GSD stud book there are, even if denied by some, references to
crossing of local variants of shepherd dogs and wolves.
In v. S.'s book The German Shepherd Dog in Word and pictures he apply to
certain breeders not to bring in more wolf blood into his new breed
(re. the later change of name from GSD to Alsatian Wolfdog).
Margos quoting from the book "100 yrs - the GSD": "Besides it he fighted
against attempts at crossing GSDs with wolfs: this expert [Stephanitz]
knew, wolfsblood is bad for persistence, endurance and sharpness.". Could
one say by his statement that v. S is creating his new breed where
persistence, endurance and sharpness is the final goal?
Persistence and endurance is the the major advantages of the CSV, and
sharpness is unwanted?

Please understand, I'm not starting a debate on the GSD but seraching for
arguments for not letting the CSV become a banned breed in my country.
Beeing a former owner of two GSDs I'm not attempting to discriminate this
wonderful breed, only searching for angels of how to argue against a
possible CSV ban by referring to the origin of the GSD as one of many
possible ways.

Referring to this book, Margo, do you know of the author(s) and year of
publishing?

Per Olav

mijke · 07-10-2002, 20:39

Hi Philipe, Ann,Per and all the other readers,

When we (as Csv owners) maybe can help Per with this discussion, we'll have
to continue with this item on the mailing list. Maybe in future he can use
the information to make his government accept the CSV as breed of its own.

I am a silent reader of this interesting discussion and completely agree
the reply of Philipe.

Mijke

Per Olav · 07-10-2002, 21:14

Hi to you all.

I really do appreciate your support!!!!

I'd like to remind you that the Kennel Club of Sweden, my neighboring
country, not has listed neither the CSV nor the SW as approved breeds.
Maybe this discussion may help future Swedish wolfdog/wolfhound owners to
convince the board of the Swedish Kennel Club to revalue their present
point of view. And maybe a corresponding situation may occur in other
countries where banning certain breeds because of their origin or of other
doubious reasons may be imminent. Thanks to you all :-)

Per Olav

Tina · 07-10-2002, 21:43

Quote:

maybe a corresponding situation may occur in other
countries where banning certain breeds because of their origin or of other
doubious reasons may be imminent. Thanks to you all :-)

I can tell you that in America they have different rules for each State, some
will NOT consider a dog as a "wolfdog" if he has no "wolfblood" for 5
generations .. others say that even 1% is still considered a hybrid. They
take the calculator & count -50% (cut each generation in half) so it takes
many (7) generations before you get 0.78% (less then 1%) and they can be
considered 'real' "dogs" again. Could you not prove your heritage with
pedigree's?

z Peronówki · 07-10-2002, 22:02

Quote:

Could you not prove your heritage with pedigree's?

The average wolfblood % for czechoslovakian wolfdogs is 28-30% and it will
stay so (because the wolfblood is not "flowing away": we do not use "normal"
dogs for breeding and if we use two wolfdogs with 30% of wolfblood the
puppies will also have 30%...).
But the wolfblood % have nothing to do with character or appearance anymore.
For example our Bolton (28.15 wolfblood %, wolf in 5. generation) is more a
"dog" than our Jolly with "only" 26.14%.

Greetings,
Margo

Tina · 07-10-2002, 22:12

Quote:

But the wolfblood % have nothing to do with character or appearance anymore.
For example our Bolton (28.15 wolfblood %, wolf in 5. generation) is more a
"dog" than our Jolly with "only" 26.14%.

I understand this, but I asked the question for the "legal" factors here in
the states.

Villulv · 07-10-2002, 22:48

Quote:

I'd like to remind you that the Kennel Club of Sweden, my neighboring
country, not has listed neither the CSV nor the SW as approved breeds.
Maybe this discussion may help future Swedish wolfdog/wolfhound owners to
convince the board of the Swedish Kennel Club to revalue their present
point of view. And maybe a corresponding situation may occur in other
countries where banning certain breeds because of their origin or of other
doubious reasons may be imminent. Thanks to you all :-)
Per Olav

Yes - this is important. As a possible future CSV-owner I certainly am interested in getting the fear of the word wolf out of the swedish kennel association, and for that matter out of everyone including the Agricultural Council which is handeling these matters.

If there will be attemps in Norway to ban certain breeds the swedish authorities will listen to this and there is no way we are ever going to be able to keep these breeds officially, and we can not use them neither in shows nor in tests of any kind.

The fear of anything connected with wolves is overwhelming in both countries. If we can show that neither of the wolfdog-breeds is anymore wolf or part wolf than the most popular GSD despite the name, then maybe that could be helpful for the future in our countries, and surely others.

So - I am certainly interested in how this may turn out.

Sanna

Villulv · 07-10-2002, 22:53

By swedish authorities 5 generations is considered a "dog" (i.e. not a "hybrid") and is legal for import etc. If you can show this by pedigree you are out of danger. This is how it is now, but with the new norwegian ideas this could quickly change in both countries.

Sanna

Per Olav · 08-10-2002, 08:31

Hi all you nice people.

I'm just about to start writing my essay to our national authoryties regarding
the proposed csv ban.

I do however need some excact information on the following subjects:

In von Stephanitz book "Der Deutsche Schaferhund im Wort und Bild" is referred
to his appeal to some breeders not to add more wolfblood into the breed.
I need the publishing year of his book, and preferably on which page this
quotation is found.

Margo quoted from the book "100 Jahre - Der Deutsche Schaferhund".
I'd like to have any information of the authors, the publishing year and the
page of the quotation.

It is mentioned von Stephanitz did not "created" the breed all by himself, but
inherited some of his process from the Phylax "network". What is the Phylax
network, and how is it related to von Stephanitz and the GSD.

Regards

Per Olav

Koos · 08-10-2002, 09:17

Hello Per,

We have contact us sometimes and as a breeder von GSD maybe I can give you
the advice to get in contact with the German Shepherd Club in Germany (SV)
to get the right information about the books.
The book written by von Stephanitz is written about 1920 and there are
nowadays 3 or 4 parts from the originale one in pocketbook.
The book 100 Jahr Deutsche Schäferhund is a Jubilee edition and give out in
1998 by the SV.
Maybe they can give you some more advice and information.

You can reach the SV by www.schaeferhund.de or by E-mail
[email protected]

I wish you good luck with the whole situation.

Letty

Philippe · 08-10-2002, 11:01

Hi all,

Have a look to this site (Italian) :

http://www.canedapastoretedesco.it/C...Stephanitz.htm

or use any search engine (Copernic) with the keyword von Stephanitz...

Just my 2 cents if it can help...

Philippe

catar2catars · 08-10-2002, 11:31

Per,
I think there are many re-writes and cleaned versions.
The most important thing is to find the first original, not cleaned version.

Gr.
Roger.

Per Olav · 08-10-2002, 16:56

OK, you.ll have 'em
Just let me have your bank account number (eh.... and your PIN code - please)

z Peronówki · 09-10-2002, 16:15

Quote:

> Referring to this book, Margo, do you know of the author(s) and year of
> publishing?
> Per Olav

"100 Jahre - Der Deutsche Schäferhund". Sonderausgabe der SV-Zeitung.
Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V.
April 1999

Greetings,
Margo

z Peronówki · 09-10-2002, 16:33

Quote:

It is mentioned von Stephanitz did not "created" the breed all by himself,
but inherited some of his process from the Phylax "network". What is the
Phylax network, and how is it related to von Stephanitz and the GSD.
Per Olav

1) Phylax von Eulan is one of the GSD used for breeding. And he was a
wolfdog.

2) Otto Rahm researched the head (skull) of Hektor von Wohlen and prof.dr.Th
Struder find there clear features of a wolf. Rahm asked Stephanitz for the
parents of Hektor and the answer was: one of the great-grandmothers (called
"Mores Plieningen") was a wolfdog (wolf x shepherd-dog).

3) Try to look for info about A Heim. He wrote that in the years 1870-1900
there was a lot wolf x GSD crossing showed on the dog shows as "real" GSDs
and used for breeding.... Usually they were highly valued than "normal"
GSDs....

Greetings,
Margo

catar2catars · 09-10-2002, 17:50

Per,
"The Phylax Society" was a group of German fanciers who were combining
various shephard dogs in Germany (and wolf crosses).
The organisation was founded in 1891 and existed till 1894.
A few years later Von Stephanitz organized on this basis the Deutsche
Schaferverein.

Gr.
Roger.

07-10-2002, 16:58	#23
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Re:: CSV and GSD VAR: Isn't it odd Hi Sanna. Sure I will. But then as a private mail. I can't see the importance of bringing his name up on a public list like this :-) You'll have a copy of his statements as written on a Norwegian news group as well. There's just a few on this list who will understand our language, so why bother translating until it's really necessary:-) Regards

07-10-2002, 19:06	#24
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	Isn't it odd He must have been an idiot. Is this a book? As I know the german language it shouldn=B4t be any problem reading it. Sanna

07-10-2002, 20:18	#25
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Isn't it odd Hm. If I'm not completely out on the waves :-) In the GSD stud book there are, even if denied by some, references to crossing of local variants of shepherd dogs and wolves. In v. S.'s book The German Shepherd Dog in Word and pictures he apply to certain breeders not to bring in more wolf blood into his new breed (re. the later change of name from GSD to Alsatian Wolfdog). Margos quoting from the book "100 yrs - the GSD": "Besides it he fighted against attempts at crossing GSDs with wolfs: this expert [Stephanitz] knew, wolfsblood is bad for persistence, endurance and sharpness.". Could one say by his statement that v. S is creating his new breed where persistence, endurance and sharpness is the final goal? Persistence and endurance is the the major advantages of the CSV, and sharpness is unwanted? Please understand, I'm not starting a debate on the GSD but seraching for arguments for not letting the CSV become a banned breed in my country. Beeing a former owner of two GSDs I'm not attempting to discriminate this wonderful breed, only searching for angels of how to argue against a possible CSV ban by referring to the origin of the GSD as one of many possible ways. Referring to this book, Margo, do you know of the author(s) and year of publishing? Per Olav

07-10-2002, 20:39	#26
mijke Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Warnsveld Posts: 2,033	Isn't it odd Hi Philipe, Ann,Per and all the other readers, When we (as Csv owners) maybe can help Per with this discussion, we'll have to continue with this item on the mailing list. Maybe in future he can use the information to make his government accept the CSV as breed of its own. I am a silent reader of this interesting discussion and completely agree the reply of Philipe. Mijke

07-10-2002, 21:14	#27
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	Isn't it odd Hi to you all. I really do appreciate your support!!!! I'd like to remind you that the Kennel Club of Sweden, my neighboring country, not has listed neither the CSV nor the SW as approved breeds. Maybe this discussion may help future Swedish wolfdog/wolfhound owners to convince the board of the Swedish Kennel Club to revalue their present point of view. And maybe a corresponding situation may occur in other countries where banning certain breeds because of their origin or of other doubious reasons may be imminent. Thanks to you all :-) Per Olav

07-10-2002, 22:53	#32
Villulv Junior Member Join Date: Jan 1970 Posts: 42	Isn't it odd - pedigree %? By swedish authorities 5 generations is considered a "dog" (i.e. not a "hybrid") and is legal for import etc. If you can show this by pedigree you are out of danger. This is how it is now, but with the new norwegian ideas this could quickly change in both countries. Sanna

08-10-2002, 08:31	#33
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	More GSD info. Please. Hi all you nice people. I'm just about to start writing my essay to our national authoryties regarding the proposed csv ban. I do however need some excact information on the following subjects: In von Stephanitz book "Der Deutsche Schaferhund im Wort und Bild" is referred to his appeal to some breeders not to add more wolfblood into the breed. I need the publishing year of his book, and preferably on which page this quotation is found. Margo quoted from the book "100 Jahre - Der Deutsche Schaferhund". I'd like to have any information of the authors, the publishing year and the page of the quotation. It is mentioned von Stephanitz did not "created" the breed all by himself, but inherited some of his process from the Phylax "network". What is the Phylax network, and how is it related to von Stephanitz and the GSD. Regards Per Olav __________________ Per Olav

08-10-2002, 09:17	#34
Koos Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Posts: 731	More GSD info. Please. Hello Per, We have contact us sometimes and as a breeder von GSD maybe I can give you the advice to get in contact with the German Shepherd Club in Germany (SV) to get the right information about the books. The book written by von Stephanitz is written about 1920 and there are nowadays 3 or 4 parts from the originale one in pocketbook. The book 100 Jahr Deutsche Schäferhund is a Jubilee edition and give out in 1998 by the SV. Maybe they can give you some more advice and information. You can reach the SV by www.schaeferhund.de or by E-mail [email protected] I wish you good luck with the whole situation. Letty

08-10-2002, 11:01	#35
Philippe Junior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Oise Posts: 304	More GSD info. Please. Hi all, Have a look to this site (Italian) : http://www.canedapastoretedesco.it/C...Stephanitz.htm or use any search engine (Copernic) with the keyword von Stephanitz... Just my 2 cents if it can help... Philippe

08-10-2002, 11:31	#36
catar2catars Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 27	More GSD info. Please. Per, I think there are many re-writes and cleaned versions. The most important thing is to find the first original, not cleaned version. Gr. Roger.

08-10-2002, 16:56	#37
Per Olav Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 395	More GSD info. Please. OK, you.ll have 'em Just let me have your bank account number (eh.... and your PIN code - please)

09-10-2002, 17:50	#40
catar2catars Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 27	More GSD info. Please. Per, "The Phylax Society" was a group of German fanciers who were combining various shephard dogs in Germany (and wolf crosses). The organisation was founded in 1891 and existed till 1894. A few years later Von Stephanitz organized on this basis the Deutsche Schaferverein. Gr. Roger.