Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs-Australia

Originally Posted by yukidomari

no, it doesn't mean that they aren't pure, but it means they shouldn't have been bred without slovak club approval... and 5 month old puppies normally don't show any congenital health problems anyway.

I'm curious as to why you disagree with the owners of your puppies' parents, who in a previous post believes the male is a mix? Or does she no longer think that?

"no, it doesn't mean that they aren't pure, but it means they shouldn't have been bred without slovak club approval" Well if that doesn't mean that they're not pure, then what basis do you have to say that these dogs aren't pure then?

Go back and read. He said the male MAYBE a mix, and he only said that after multiple people who see themselves as all knowing authorities said they weren't pure. If you look at the original posts you'll see he has both listed as pure.

[wolfin]

if they have FCI VDH pedigree and all generation back are clear without others dogs, they are CSV. If not sory, only pets, but not can call a pure CSV.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Wolves

Go back and read. He said the male MAYBE a mix, and he only said that after multiple people who see themselves as all knowing authorities said they weren't pure. If you look at the original posts you'll see he has both listed as pure.

Well obviously every word is too much here as you are not able to understand the point. The maybe should be enough to do a DNA-Profil on parents and if necessary grandparents or grand-grandparents. If you would sell them in Germany and it would be proofed they are not pure you could be sued for fraud. If this is how the CSV-breeding is gonna be founded in Australia, Australia really isn´t ready for it. Just sell them as Australian Wolfdogs and everybody is happy.

Originally Posted by wolfin

if they have FCI VDH pedigree and all generation back are clear without others dogs, they are CSV. If not sory, only pets, but not can call a pure CSV.

Well all dogs are clear in this case. But wait they're not Czechoslocakian Wolfdogs because they're not registered with a particular organisation? I'm sorry but that's complete rubbish.

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

Well obviously every word is too much here as you are not able to understand the point. The maybe should be enough to do a DNA-Profil on parents and if necessary grandparents or grand-grandparents. If you would sell them in Germany and it would be proofed they are not pure you could be sued for fraud. If this is how the CSV-breeding is gonna be founded in Australia, Australia really isn´t ready for it. Just sell them as Australian Wolfdogs and everybody is happy.

Alright let's just make things clear. If anyone doesn't understand things here it's you, first you thought my pups were the first generation, secondly you thought I was breeding. You clearly have no clue, whatsoever.

These pups have a pedigree, which shows they are pure. Are you trying to claim the pedigree if fraudulent? Because in Australia if you make claims like that without evidence, YOU could be sued for liable.

To be honest you've being going round in circles, and haven't been making much sense at all. I advise you to think carefully before you respond.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Wolves

Well all dogs are clear in this case. But wait they're not Czechoslocakian Wolfdogs because they're not registered with a particular organisation? I'm sorry but that's complete rubbish.

in this case they not are CSV, only CSV type dog, sorry but this is true.
p.s. and IF german oldest breeder speak about problem in this dogs purity I think you mas lissen who they say, and not play "but but I' moore right"

Originally Posted by wolfin

in this case they not are CSV, only CSV type dog, sorry but this is true.

So given your logic, a lion isn't a lion unless its registered. As I said before, you're talking rubbish.

Also "Germans oldest breeder" has not given any proof, so I don't care what he/she says.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Wolves

So given your logic, a lion isn't a lion unless its registered. As I said before, you're talking rubbish.

Also "Germans oldest breeder" has not given any proof, so I don't care what he/she says.

not important- you make this who make, when for you is nothing a breed and others people work.
old breeder, judge, people who know better breed like you say who is who, but ... you not want see this. Sad, not moore

"not important- you make this who make, when for you is nothing a breed and others people work. old breeder, judge, people who know better breed like you say who is who, but ... you not want see this. Sad, not moore"

^I'm sorry I have no idea what you're saying. Can you reply in English?

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Wolves

I'm sorry I have no idea what you're saying. Can you reply in English?

if not want "not understand"

[Rona]

There is no sense in talking with somebody who is convinced he knows everything best and is sure that everybody except him are ignorant/silly. Especially if such a person has vague idea about genetics and no idea of the prinples of breeding ethics/good practice.

There is no sense in wasting time on exchanging arguments with somebody who, though a novice to the breed, does not appreciate the knowledge, experience, expertise and authority of people who spent many years dealing with vlcaks: on judging them, bonitating, breeding, etc.

There is no point in talking to somebody who is arrogant, impolite and lacks willingness to educate himself in what he is talking about.

No wonder people went mute. EOT for me, too.

Originally Posted by Rona

There is no sense in talking with somebody who is convinced he knows everything best and is sure that everybody except him are ignorant/silly. Especially if such a person has vague idea about genetics and no idea of the prinples of breeding ethics/good practice.

There is no sense in wasting time on exchanging arguments with somebody who, though a novice to the breed, does not appreciate the knowledge, experience, expertise and authority of people who spent many years dealing with vlcaks: on judging them, bonitating, breeding, etc.

There is no point in talking to somebody who is arrogant, impolite and lacks willingness to educate himself in what he is talking about.

No wonder people went mute. EOT for me, too.

I'm delighted you're not going to reply. Your above comment is baseless, you've provided nothing to back up your statements.

You say I'm arrogant, but don't explain why.
You say I know little of genetics, yet don't explain why.
You think my dogs aren't pure, yet don't provide any evidence.

Where did I say EVERYBODY is ignorant? I called one person ignorant as they clearly have not being reading anything, they even thought I was a breeder.

Also, I think it's pretty ignorant to say an animal isn't pure because it's not registered with a particular organisation. Yukidomari at least has the intelligence to realise that.

I think it's far more arrogant to think because you have a history with the breed, you can say that someone's dogs aren't pure without backing it up with evidence. And then to insult someone because they question your statement, is just ridiculous.

Do you sell your pups with genetic test results? Because if not, how are we supposed to know that the actual parents are the dogs that you have listed on the papers? How do we know you're not mix breeding?

Call me impolite if you like, but unlike you, I don't make statements without providing evidence. I don't insult people without evidence. As I said, I'm glad you're not replying, you haven't said anything important anyway.

[Sona_Bognarova]

Let me explain why it makes difference under what body a CSW is registered: The current more or less unified compliance of the CSW population with its standard has been achieved throughout many years of work - achieved by education of the breeders and owners and above all, by SELECTION of individuals approved for breeding. Member organisations of FCI were the first and still have been the leading ones in introducing the breeding rules, such as health tests, bonitations, trials and hopefully DNA tests very soon too. Too often the owners of the dogs that were not approved for breeding instead of accepting it as a healthy decision for the breed decided to have their dogs registered elsewhere and cheerfully commence the breeding, with no checks, rules, conditions. I see it as a step back, if not against... That's why dogs with pedigrees either issued outside FCI or unfortunately even by FCI but coming from a questionable kennel are not a choice for a responsible breeder. The conditions for having a CSW approved for breeding are meant for a desired development of the breed and avoiding or even bypassing them usually is fishy...If those pups here in Australia are disexed, most probably it is better. But as a principle, once again, I would love to see CSW introduction in Australia as transparent, positive and with the best potential to become as popular as anywhere else. This is not a personal war against one breeder or one litter, this is a deep concern about the future of this fantastic breed, can' t you really see it?

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

Let me explain why it makes difference under what body a CSW is registered: The current more or less unified compliance of the CSW population with its standard has been achieved throughout many years of work - achieved by education of the breeders and owners and above all, by SELECTION of individuals approved for breeding. Member organisations of FCI were the first and still have been the leading ones in introducing the breeding rules, such as health tests, bonitations, trials and hopefully DNA tests very soon too. Too often the owners of the dogs that were not approved for breeding instead of accepting it as a healthy decision for the breed decided to have their dogs registered elsewhere and cheerfully commence the breeding, with no checks, rules, conditions. I see it as a step back, if not against... That's why dogs with pedigrees either issued outside FCI or unfortunately even by FCI but coming from a questionable kennel are not a choice for a responsible breeder. The conditions for having a CSW approved for breeding are meant for a desired development of the breed and avoiding or even bypassing them usually is fishy...If those pups here in Australia are disexed, most probably it is better. But as a principle, once again, I would love to see CSW introduction in Australia as transparent, positive and with the best potential to become as popular as anywhere else. This is not a personal war against one breeder or one litter, this is a deep concern about the future of this fantastic breed, can' t you really see it?

Hi Sona, yes I understand what you're saying. I know it is very important to establish the breed with dogs from FCI registered breeders, that have been approved for breeding.

Th dogs here in Australia now aren't going to be used to establish the breed. They're just pets. My main argument was that people on this forums have been saying that they're mixes, but they haven't provided proof. Then I've had people call me irresponsible for owning them and accusing me of not caring about the breed.

Also I don't know if you've seen their pedigree. But it's not that bad, there's only a couple of dogs on the fathers side that aren't registered. Definitelely not enough to say that they're not pure, given the non registered dogs have registered parents.
Pedigree- http://www.wolfdog.org/site/dbase/d/14945

[Ligerwolve2]

ETA: Sorry I was talking to the breeder here.

Originally Posted by Sona_Bognarova

Let me explain why it makes difference under what body a CSW is registered: The current more or less unified compliance of the CSW population with its standard has been achieved throughout many years of work - achieved by education of the breeders and owners and above all, by SELECTION of individuals approved for breeding. Member organisations of FCI were the first and still have been the leading ones in introducing the breeding rules, such as health tests, bonitations, trials and hopefully DNA tests very soon too. Too often the owners of the dogs that were not approved for breeding instead of accepting it as a healthy decision for the breed decided to have their dogs registered elsewhere and cheerfully commence the breeding, with no checks, rules, conditions. I see it as a step back, if not against... That's why dogs with pedigrees either issued outside FCI or unfortunately even by FCI but coming from a questionable kennel are not a choice for a responsible breeder. The conditions for having a CSW approved for breeding are meant for a desired development of the breed and avoiding or even bypassing them usually is fishy...If those pups here in Australia are disexed, most probably it is better. But as a principle, once again, I would love to see CSW introduction in Australia as transparent, positive and with the best potential to become as popular as anywhere else. This is not a personal war against one breeder or one litter, this is a deep concern about the future of this fantastic breed, can' t you really see it?

Well said!

In Australia they are now making breeders liable and yes you ARE a breeder as you have had a litter. New laws mean that say a pup has HD the breeder is now liable and a puppy buyer can take you to court to recieve compensation for medical costs. Having had a pup returned with a ruined elbow I can tell you that her op was quoted at $10,000. If a pup you sell has behavioural issues like aggression yes you can be held partially liable. That could also be a shy pup that hasnt been socialised yet. Im not exaggerating either. People are dropping out of breeding like flies. Talks of all breeders having to undergo backyard and kennel checks. Some states will also fine you for having entire dogs without a permit.

Now I agree totally with what Sonja has said here. You have sold puppies (lets say for a moment they are "pure"). So you have just introduced the breed to Australia. You sold them as pure which if there are parents which are not in the pedigree again you have opened yourself up for a law suit if someone decided they wanted to take you for false advertising. Pure means 100% of the dogs pedigree after closed books is CsW. So lucky you, you have introduced the breed. Have you added to it or damaged it? That should always be a question we ALL ask. breeder or not.

If you want to understand the system better and know what you are required to do dont hesitate to PM me and we can go through it. If you truely dont want to breed one dog must be desexed or what about chemical if your against the actual snip. Your dogs are mature so you do not need to worry about changes in their temp.

What Im wondering is what do YOU want? Im a little confused. I hope though that you will take me up on my offer of some info. They really are changing the laws here to stamp out puppy farms, and BYB. Dont get stung! Even if without a pedigree if you want to breed please take the correct steps. Both parents (regardless of what parents have had done) need the appropriate health tests. A bitch should not be over bred and should have a vet check before any litters. Puppies MUST be vet checked, socialised, microchipped (by law), wormed and should go with a basic puppy kit. Pedigree or not you should be doing this. You should also be careful advertising pure CzWs and the first in Australia if you do not want to be a breeder or making a mark on the breed itself. This is what you did so Sonja has every right to ask what are you contributing. This is the way of the dog world Im afraid and you will have to get used to being held liable.

[Ligerwolve2]

Sorry replied but missed some earlier posts.

Wolves, thank goodness you at least got a male and female PHEW! Hope you are desexing one though?

Actually while WSS and GSDs select for brown eyes amber is not that uncommon. Nor such a large fault that you wont see it at shows etc.

Yes you can actually see entire litters looking similar whether a mix or not.

I hope your dogs are pure. I really do but the breeder NEEDS to find out. Even just to protect themself since they have advertised as such.

How exciting for you to have some puppies You will not be able to tell hips and elbows untill after a certain age and ONLY by x-ray which needs to be sent to specific people to read. Many vets will tell you they can just "tell" or that they can read the x-ray. Thats absolutely bull. They CANNOT! Because Im assuming the parents havent been done (correct me if Im wrong) you really should for peace of mind and you can actually help with severity perhaps if you know its going to happen.

Eyes again a specialist is needed. I think I have the contact details for one in Sydney and they travel to Canberra. I think they suggest you wait till after 12 months for these tests but I will leave that to CzW breeders here to confirm.

You will also get certificates for these and then no one can argue with you

I wish you all the luck with your two and hope you have put in place a solid socialisation plan.

It only takes one dog to snap at someone and its all over the news. That "pure" CzWs are viscious and a call WILL come to ban them.

Then because people couldnt be bothered or wait no one will be able to own them and all the dogs here will be required to either follow DD laws or be PTS. Not just that but in VIC a person has to PROVE their dog isnt a pitbull. Anything that is like a bull breed is being targeted in the most horrible way. They will seize a dog without asking and you will have to provide proof which without papers basically you cant.

PLEASE be responsible!

[Ligerwolve2]

Also even with lions a zoo wont breed without knowing whats in the DNA (no you cant do that by looking and saying looks like a nice lion). No matter how endangered they wont breed till they see that DNA.

I know a white lion who is just magnificent, beautiful! He will never sire a litter as they SUSPECT he carries back problems. They cant prove it but they will never risk it.

Thats how good responsible breeders work.

[Ligerwolve2]

One more post I promise!

Do you know the PTS rate for Australia of unwanted dogs?

Yeah.

With eyes I know there are cases of GSDs with amber eyes, but it's rare. I've never seen a WSS with amber eyes, but I'm sure some do. But these cases are few and far between and they're a fault. Most would put it down to weak genetics in that area making the eyes have less pigmentation then they should. But given these cases are so rare, I think it's far more likely the amber eyes in these dogs came from Czw.

Both my male and female were desexed last week, haha. The breeder was responsible and made sure no one bought a pup unless agreeing that they wouldn't breed them with any other dogs, other than another czw if there are more imported in the future.

I think they're pure. The pedigree definitely proves it. But anyone who claims they're not pure, should support that with evidence. And if they have none, then they really should be quite, because if these dogs are proven pure, which I think is a high chance, anyone who claimed they weren't pure, is open to being sued for defamation.

My main point with the lion analogy was to point out that a lion is a lion, it's not a lion because its registered with a particular organisation. It's a lion because of its genetics, and the only way to know that fully, is genetic testing.

Also in answer to your question, the czw here in Aus now definitely haven't damaged anything, I cant speak for the other pups, but I know personally our two dogs create widespread interest in the breed wherever they go.

[Ligerwolve2]

Its not rare at all. Common and considered a minor fault so a dog with pale eyes can still win first place IF they have more going for them. I can say this first hand. I breed GSDs. Amber eyes is not perfect but construction, temp etc is more important.

I wont say the dogs arent pure BUT I think the breeder really should find out for sure. Especially since they advertised them as pure, not as maybe.

It would really go along way.

I think our definition of a responsible breeder are very different. Im glad you have two puppies you love and you want to speak out on their behalf BUT there is lot to be desired here.

I hope they are just inexperienced. From what I understand quite unprepared. So there is a lot to be done and I really hope they do. I really hope they do the right thing.

No breeding without putting in the effort is simply adding to the number of PTS in this country. No I dont think they are putting in the effort especially with screening potential puppies or taking responsibility for the impact they are having on the breed.

Just putting two dogs together and then selling them for that kind of price with no work is NOT responsible. Telling people they should desex unless putting to another CzW even though these have not been concluded pure is not responsible. Its called "backyard breeding".

So perhaps you can tell me, what tests did he have done and with who? What was his program to produce happy puppies and were they microchipped vet checked, vaccinated and wormed before you recieved them? What age did he sell them and the parents what has been done with these?

What is his goal in breeding?

Any breeder worth their salt can answer these.

Actually given the breeder admitted to a dog possibly being a mix and then advertising as pure is liable. Nothing wrong with anyone saying they could be crosses given this admission. Not only that but I believe on that site they specify people advertise as mixes or pure. One must know for sure their dog is pure. Knowing there is a chance its not is false advertising and the company will pull the ad.

You can "think" they are pure but cannot be said for sure and in this country thats a mix.

Have you ever noticed pounds, RSPCA etc always say cross even when its almost certain its not? Do you know why? Because they have and will be taken to court, bad mouthed etc if it turns out otherwise. Unless an animal has the PROPER papers it is not pure but seen as a BYB or cross.

So again its a REALLY good idea for them to do something. Get the dogs recognised with proper papers, DNA test what ever. Untill then these dogs are unfortunately regarded as crosses.

Wouldnt you love to see your dogs papered? Then you can say without ANY doubt they are pure. No one could argue with you!

Again a small amounst of WSS generations ago to most people would make no difference in looks. Absolutely they could be crosses and if I were you Id listen to those who have so much experience. Yes people can be very defensive of the breed and annoy the heck out of you but you should still be listening.

Why I brought lions back up as yes they are lions (although you may not be able to tell what kind of lions without DNA) but NO zoo would EVER breed UNTILL DNA had been done. No breeder in doubt should EVER breed untill they know for sure. The number one reason being they would want to know the genetic history health wise.