Pollux needs a new home (Florida - USA)

[yukidomari]

I think that the title 'trainer' should be taken with a grain of salt in all situations. After all, being a trainer alone doesn't automatically qualify one for much of anything.

Besides, whom among us who has ever had any dog (or animal..), is also not a 'trainer'?

I don't really care about how much land he has or how much experience he has with wolf mixes, being that neither are prerequisites for happily owning a dog, but I do wonder how many animals he has if he has a staff of 10 to take care of them, and how well a domesticated animal meant for human companionship such as a dog would do there.

I would think that dogs would be happiest in a household that would take them to eat ice cream on their birthdays, go on long walks everyday, train for whatever they were bred to do, play at the parks, and sleep in their owners' beds at night. For Pollux' sake I'll hope that this is where he finds himself, although I'm not certain he will.

PS. I also don't like the whole overnight breeder factor either, and I think it's a terrible start for Vlcaks in the states to have just anyone out to breed dogs who has probably not even met more than 1 representative of the breed.

[Rona]

I bothered to read the old threads about Pollux:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14024
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14211

and have one simple question: why haven't you, Draggar and Lunasmom, learnt anything from the lesson?

People who had much more experince with vlcaks were warning you and your friend about the possible consequences of hasty purchase of a pup from the first litter available and from a breeder who wasn't even sure which pup she had forwarded to the USA: Puck or Pollux . You didn't bother to listen - you answers were arrogant and showed the "I know better" attitude with masses of self-advertising.
I was surprised, that as dog trainers, on Pollux arrival neither you, nor your knowledgeable friend could correctly interpret the pup's obvious behaviour signals described, but I hoped you knew what you were doing. Unfortunately the developments showed you advisors were right: Pollux is still unsettled and the situation repeats:

Again people who have more exeperinece with vlcaks, their raising, training, rehoming, developmental patterns, etc. are kindly advising you not to send him to a place where he'll be exposed to further stresses and to someone who will expect from him things he might not fulfil. These people have no personal interest in where the dog will live, just like they had no personal interest which puppy Sioban would have eventually picked - they're only trying to help.

My question is: why don't you guys listen to them? Why do you again reject their opinions and advice? Why do you again practise wishful thinking?

[Shadowlands]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

PS. I also don't like the whole overnight breeder factor either, and I think it's a terrible start for Vlcaks in the states to have just anyone out to breed dogs who has probably not even met more than 1 representative of the breed.

Absolutely! Also, what happened to the decision stated in another thread?

(Posted by Draggar)
I do to, the whole future of "American lined" CSVs are at stake here. Pollux is a very good looking dog and his temperament isn't as much of a factor (being the male) since typically 75% of the temperament comes from the mother (and raising).

If he's a mix we'd need to know ASAP but I think right now my wife has decided to not use him in any breeding for now until more facts come out.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I would think that dogs would be happiest in a household that would take them to eat ice cream on their birthdays, go on long walks everyday, train for whatever they were bred to do, play at the parks, and sleep in their owners' beds at night. For Pollux' sake I'll hope that this is where he finds himself, although I'm not certain he will.

Totally!!! (I like the ice-cream part most, because Brukne is crazy for them, so I can't resist... )
Pollux doesn't need acres to run free, he needs home. Usually experienced trainers or breeders say, that no dog needs acres to run free - in such cases dogs become "stupid". Every dog needs a walk with a master, not running free. Draggar, you say you are a dog trainer, so are you the one who doesn't know some simple things about dogs, or are you the one, who doesn't care?

P.S. Last week had a walk with a really experienced Irish setter breeder (if "expeerienced" is not enought, a male from her kennel is twice a World Winner) and once again an experienced person told me, she would rather sell a dog to a small flat, than a house with a yard.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

My question is: why don't you guys listen to them? Why do you again reject their opinions and advice? Why do you again practise wishful thinking?

As stated before, many times, we told Pollux's owner to wait and she didn't want to. She's the one who rushed to get a dog and she got Pollux for the wrong reasons. Yet we're the one cleaning up the mess and taking the heat on the forum like we've had 100% control over what's happened.

We took Pollux out of a neglectful situation and brought him into our home. Even though it was supposed to be temporary, we treated him and loved him as if he was one of our own.

Originally Posted by Shadowlands

Absolutely! Also, what happened to the decision stated in another thread?

(Posted by Draggar)
I do to, the whole future of "American lined" CSVs are at stake here. Pollux is a very good looking dog and his temperament isn't as much of a factor (being the male) since typically 75% of the temperament comes from the mother (and raising).

If he's a mix we'd need to know ASAP but I think right now my wife has decided to not use him in any breeding for now until more facts come out.

If this person breeds it is for purely internal reasons (yes, I've met other "breeders" like this before). It is in the contract that if he sells or rehomes (etc..) the puppies they MUST be neutered or spayed. Breach of contract is a valid reason for us to confiscate him.

Pollux hasn't even been registered wiht UKC or AKC yet, he was shown with a temporary ID (I don't even know where the paperwork is - I am not even sure if his owner got them yet). So even if he does sell the puppies it will be very hard to keep them in any vlcak program here in the USA w/o being registered.

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Totally!!! (I like the ice-cream part most, because Brukne is crazy for them, so I can't resist... )
Pollux doesn't need acres to run free, he needs home. Usually experienced trainers or breeders say, that no dog needs acres to run free - in such cases dogs become "stupid". Every dog needs a walk with a master, not running free. Draggar, you say you are a dog trainer, so are you the one who doesn't know some simple things about dogs, or are you the one, who doesn't care?

P.S. Last week had a walk with a really experienced Irish setter breeder (if "expeerienced" is not enought, a male from her kennel is twice a World Winner) and once again an experienced person told me, she would rather sell a dog to a small flat, than a house with a yard.

First, I never said I was a trainer - and for the record, I am not. I may know a thing or two but I'm FAR from a trainer (I bet even the average professional dog show handler knows more than I do). Yes, I've worked him though the guidance of trainers. I saw what he was when he first came into our home and with a hell of a lot of work he's become a much better dog. I gave up many Saturday afternoons to take him to schutzhund to work him and build up his confidence. I gave up many evenings talking him for long walks and exposing him to strangers (to him) and new enviroments. We even had him working as a service dog in training for a while so he could be exposed to a lot more than the average dog.

As for the home he's going to - that was the owner's call. We just screened the appliants (for the lack of a better term). Yes, he has acrage but Pollux isn't going to be out there 24-7. The person he's going to said that he wants to keep the dogs in his house with him. Pollux also loves to run around and play with other dgs - we see this whenever we go to the dog park. His grin goes from ear to ear and he will go on for hours running with the other dogs.

I am willing to bet that there will also be a lot of dog to human interaction since the dogs he has are used for film (in film they have to work with humans, even if the part isn't with humans).

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

If this person breeds it is for purely internal reasons (yes, I've met other "breeders" like this before). It is in the contract that if he sells or rehomes (etc..) the puppies they MUST be neutered or spayed. Breach of contract is a valid reason for us to confiscate him.

So even if he does sell the puppies it will be very hard to keep them in any vlcak program here in the USA w/o being registered.

So breeding for his 'internal reasons' is supposed to make it better to breed unregistered puppies??? You're supposed to be looking out for the welfare of each dog of the breed, not just if they are sold to the public, registered or not! I guess all the other backyard breeders who will spay and neuter animals if they sell them are also OK, and all the people who want to breed "to have their own pack of wolves" are also OK..

My goodness, where has logic and common sense went gone? What kind of thinking is this to befit a so-called 'founder' of a breed club in foundation?

Originally Posted by draggar

As for the home he's going to - that was the owner's call. We just screened the appliants (for the lack of a better term).

I call BS and I'm tired of every little thing being "his owner's call". Yes, she WAS his owner, but as far as I understand when you've fostered a dog for 6 months or more and alternatively represented him as a "co-own", you have good legal standing to take custody of this dog. You should really try to do that. And if you haven't tried to fight your friend whose decision is to send a mill (according to your words) dog off to be bred to make unregistered puppies, then you are complicit in this.

Though I guess you being extremely happy over this placement already means that.

I hope that if your club becomes the national UKC club, that members get to vote for positions. Hopefully most will read this rubbish written here and decide that you're not fit to head a breed club which purports to look out for the welfare of the dogs and the breed. Not registering the litters does not in fact make it better, and selling puppies altered also does not make it better.

[draggar]

Oh, let's put words in other people's mouths! I love this game!!

So, what you're saying is a ranch owner who breeds their own herding dogs and doesn't bother with registration and then sells the dogs that doesn't make the cut neutered / spayed to pet homes are destroying the breeds, too?

How about a police department who has their own breeding kennel and does the same with ther dogs that don't make the cut - are they destorying the breed too?

These are all working kennels and NOT just back yard breeders who want to mass-produce puppies to just sell. They breed dogs for WORK and if you think all dogs bred in working kennels make it to work you are living in some far off fantasy land.

Or do you think people shouldn't breed dogs for working ability and just breed pets to fill the demand for what's popular? Sounds more like you're the one who supports mills and back yard breeders. As long as they have papers according to you! If you truly think that way, go have a chat with the Hunte Corp and see what that mentality can lead to. Don't forget to ask about his incinerator or the 18-wheelers he gets!

Originally Posted by yukidomari

And if you haven't tried to fight your friend whose decision is to send a mill (according to your words).

.. and where did I say he was going to "a mill"?

His owner is still his owner, we were supposed to be made co-owners when his registration went though but it never did. Our "legal" standing is very small right now. We dobn't have the money to take her to court or even hire a lawyer. It's funny how people can shout LAWSUIT LAWSUIT when they know very little about the actual situation.

Also, all I see from you is complain, complain, and complain yet you didn't offer one bit of help yet you act like you know everything. I don't see any posts in this thread offering REAL help nor do I see any PMs from you offering help, just complaints about how we handled the situation.

But, since we're playing your game:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

If I were you I wouldn't care if the person was local or not for my own benefit in show or choice of playmate

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I don't think it's especially fair to him to 'hold out' on a new home waiting for one in your area which would be convenient to you, especially since things seem to be getting busy with your other dogs.

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I would say as advice, to never limit your options!

It sounds to me that you would have done the same in our situation.

Also, I'm not the one who insinuated that breeders today think that dogs are disposable and have "less brains":

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Maybe people back in the old days when Lassie and Rin Tin Tin was popular had more brains about dogs and didn't find them as disposable. Or just didn't see them as status objects like more people today.

At least I'm not the one being overly pessimistic:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

Well, good for optimistic thinking, I guess. I should try it sometimes.

Now, are we done with the "put words in someone else's mouth" game?

[yukidomari]

I'll bite.

Originally Posted by draggar

So, what you're saying is a ranch owner who breeds their own herding dogs and doesn't bother with registration and then sells the dogs that doesn't make the cut neutered / spayed to pet homes are destroying the breeds, too?

No, because if you had bothered to read the rest of my post, where I wrote that I didn't like the "overnight breeder" part of this equation, you would have surmised that I would support unregistered utility dogs if and only if the owner knew their lines well and were breeding to better their type of dog for their stock and working capacity. Which, by the way, is CLEARLY not the situation here.

Oh and BTW making dogs for movies isn't comparable to police or ranch work.

That also still doesn't answer the question: WHY, as a person involved in the breed club, would you support ANY UNREGISTERED production of dogs. This is not about whether or not "registration is all that matters" or not.

Originally Posted by draggar

Or do you think people shouldn't breed dogs for working ability and just breed pets to fill the demand for what's popular? Sounds more like you're the one who supports mills and back yard breeders. As long as they have papers according to you!

Registration is not the end all of purebred dogs, but without registration a person isn't breeding, they're just producing. And you're supporting this. And again, don't kid yourself into thinking that movie production requires some 'special' new breeding of unregistered, possibly mixed, Vlcaks. Nice attempt at a straw man, though.

Anyway, even if the puppies were registered, doesn't make it better either.

Originally Posted by draggar

and where did I say he was going to "a mill"?

I didn't say you said he was going to a mill. Read. I said "Send a mill dog..".

Originally Posted by draggar

His owner is still his owner, we were supposed to be made co-owners when his registration went though but it never did. Our "legal" standing is very small right now. We dobn't have the money to take her to court or even hire a lawyer. It's funny how people can shout LAWSUIT LAWSUIT when they know very little about the actual situation.

Sounds like you've never been to small claims court, which is neither expensive nor requires a lawyer, and so it's funny how a person can shout that they can't do anything when they know very little about the American legal system.

Originally Posted by draggar

Also, all I see from you is complain, complain, and complain yet you didn't offer one bit of help yet you act like you know everything.

Nobody can tell you where to place a dog, they can only advise. And the advice here is not to place the dog here, not just from me, which you clearly don't care about anyway, and perceive it as complaining.

[GalomyOak]

I guess a couple of things don't make sense to me with that guy (if it is the same guy in the website).

1. In my interpretation, it has become easier in many places to own "hybrid" wolfdogs, since their reclassification as a species and also since many states now list ALL wolfdogs as a "domestic" animal. Even the vaccination controversy has simmered down considerably. Also, that guy says he obtains permits and works with the USDA, and works with other exotic species too - all the necessary framework you'd need as a professional, I imagine. I don't really understand his argument that it is becoming more difficult to work with hybrids. In any case, I think it will only be a matter of time, unfortunately, before insurance companies, localities, etc. get wind of our breed - probably through an incompetent owner - and they are added to the "dangerous dog breed list", only a slight step up from the legalities of hybrid ownership.

2. I'm not sure who the "kennel you don't like is", or the female who he plans to breed with. My understanding of working with animals, canines specifically, is that there is usually a set of them, with each dog having specific strengths and weaknesses in acting, that all look somewhat similar. Different dogs are used for different shots, all representing the same "character". I imagine animation does a lot now too. It would seem a trainer would want animals from different backgrounds - some with a background strong for being social. I'd think it would make more sense to obtain dogs from different litters - not the same litter based off of at least one shy parent? Hopefully he doesn't plan to pull the pups from the dam at 10 days as many hybrid breeders advocate.

3. There is the ethical standpoint. I can't agree with breeding dogs en masse for commercial reasons (not including service work or civil/military protection, where there is a waiting list for "extras"), even if they are a closed population. That's probably my biggest problem that I have come to see in "the working sport dog" world as well...dogs are really a commodity. If the trainer doesn't see a world champion, he implores you to buy a different dog, or sell the one you've got. The home itself...maybe it will be ok for Pollux, no more of a risk than any other new home, I guess, in terms of the wrangler's honesty, integrity and ability. But the breeding part...that scares me. Siobhan herself tells in the bio on her website how pro-humane shelter she is. Working in that environment, she must have seen the desperation that goes on there as a result of commercial breeding. Does she have an alter ego?

I am very proud of the ownership and home that you and Sara have provided for my Luna. If there is any way our rescue can help Pollux out (I didn't realize it had gotten to this stage), please let me know. I even have some space at my home if you need a respite.

[tupacs2legs]

Its all one big cop out!!!!

Where is the love of the breed???

Imo it seems to be more about having a rare breed... dogs don't seem to be loved family members but commodities!!!

Pleas let GalomyOak foster Pollux and hopefully find him a loving home so our breed is not also damned in your country too!


And if not why not?

[Gypsy Wolf]

OK, OK... since *I* am the one who actually spoke to the Animal Wrangler/Trainer, I feel the need to clarify a few things...
First, I did want to point out to Marcy (and thank you for the offer of respite!) that some states (Florida is one of them) considers wolf-dog crosses to be exotic animals and you need a permit. Not every state considers them domestic dogs. The FL law was recently changed and is, unfortunately, very UNCLEAR - stating that if the dog looks like a wolf it is to be treated as such and the same requirements of ownership apply (specific enclosures, etc.). We have since joined the FL Lupine Assn to try to lobby against this unfair legal definition. Technically, I can "prove" my vlcaks are not wolf-dog crosses (not recently, anyway) but visually, Pollux looks like a wolf. Period.
Speaking with the wrangler, a lot of his work is also international - a LOT easier to work with domestic dog breed laws as opposed to exotic species laws, so I find no fault in his desire to have a vlcak "wolf pack". Better for the actual work, too, as they are certainly more amenable to training than a wolf-dog.
His intent is simply to replace the wolf-dogs that he currently has, as they are about 10 and a half years old, and with a more consistant gene pool, it's a better bet to get the "look" he wants, rather than "experimenting" with another wolf-to-some-dog-breed mix. He is not looking to produce puppies for sale - he is looking for wolf-looking dogs he can use for animal Talent. I have no problem with this.
Personally I feel we have a working breed, and as such, it is more fulfilling to the individual to WORK. Yes, being a pet in our home is nice - he gets cuddled and spoiled and loved. But he also has a lot of energy and we live in a townhouse in an urban area - though I take the dogs to parks, etc., to run off their energy, it would be better, IMHO, for a dog like Pollux to have a LOT of room to just run full-out and play and wrestle with other dogs. I also am THRILLED that someone who has a LOT of experience with actual wolf-dog and wolf behavior is going to work him - I think that is a perfect fit.
Pollux instinctively does not like being in an urban environment. He will often display neurotic behaviors if he is cooped up longer than normal (if it is a day of constant thunderstorms) I think 10 acres to run on and get exhausted would be healthier for him.
Pollux is still here currently - the wrangler has not contacted us regarding getting him shipped - perhaps he has reconsidered and Pollux will end up staying here. Again, I am not in a rush - he is welcome to stay here indefinitely. I just think that his going out and being a working acting animal with someone who intimiately understands his behavior is perfect. As I mentioned before, I think a working dog should WORK. It brings confidence - especially to those who need a little bit more.
This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the facts. His owner found that she didn't want him and was looking to sell him. We took him in so he would be in a home rather than out in a kennel in her yard until a good home could be found. There was no abuse - lots of dogs are kennel dogs - we just felt it would be better for him to be in a home. From the beginning it was intended to be a "foster" situation - I already have a vlcak, not to mention a GSD and 2 Malinois - and having another dog takes time away from them - the dogs *I* chose to be in my life. I don't have unlimited time, money or energy - or space. I need to make sure that I am fair to my dogs - they all have or have had, a job. All my dogs work doing something, and I have goals in regards to working and titling them. A needy dog like Pollux takes a good deal of time and effort to continually work... is that fair to my other dogs? IS it fair to Pollux? Personally, I think it would be better for him to be in a situation where he gets more time being trained and socialized. The wrangler has 2 other trainers working for him - Pollux would have even more attention, not to mention lots of other dogs to interact with, and people who understand him and do not expect him to be a Golden Retriever, like a lot of "pet" people assume he should be. He will be worked around his instinctive shyness, rather than coddled for it.
This placement is NOT a "pet" placement - in fact I am happier about placing him in this sort of scenario as opposed to a "pet" situation - I feel it is the perfect environment for him to mature and blossom. I spoke to the wrangler at length, and I have been involved in placing rescues since I started in dogs back in 1991 - I do not have reservations about Pollux's future if he does end up going there. No, he may not get to share an ice cream cone with his handler, but I think the trade-off will be better for him.

[tupacs2legs]

If u loved the breed u would at least neuter him before u let him go and not allow willy nilly breeding from him!

Being used once in a while for films etc is not working!! U are kidding yourselves!

[Gypsy Wolf]

As I mentioned above, it isn't "willy nilly" breeding. You also have no idea what you are talking about, obviously, in regards to working theatrical animals. Most of my dogs have worked doing theatrical projects - my dogs have been in product demonstration videos as well as in soap operas, TV shows, etc. Having dogs trained to that level is not only daily work in training various behaviors, but keeping them in prime condition, and doing the actual work. Funny that the actual time they are in front of the cameras is miniscule in comparison to all the background work done to get them to that point. So, yes, it is work.
And I am more than happy to see Pollux go to that wrangler. He will blossom there.
And as an aside, I do not have the ability to neuter him - that is his owner's decision - and personally I do not feel that neutering him would be beneficial to his temperament, either. For Pollux, I think a little bit of testosterone is a good thing. I am more concerned about his psychological welfare than an unfounded fear that he will be bred "willy-nilly."

[yukidomari]

How is being in films 'working' any more then obedience venues are 'working'? Please, it's probably more akin to a sport and so I see no reason why a pet family who happens to like obedience, rally, agility, etc, would be a lesser placement.



There's still no reason to justify creating possible mixes or contributing a dog to a person who doesn't have much CsV experience to breed with. Even if this is for his own use, it doesn't seem justified since there are such a vast array of good dogs to pick from anyway out there. If I didn't know much about the breed, pedigrees, breeding, etc, then I would simply buy another from a breeder who does.

As for the need for testosterone? Vasectomy. It exists for dogs too.

[tupacs2legs]

Oh dear,do you think u have the only dogs used for that? My own csv is on books and I know exactly what training goes into it....and mine are all trained without torture devices.

Lol methinks this guy wouldn't buy a neutered dog and that's the real reason u won't neuter him first!

Its more about fame it seems that and the dollar not the love of the breed,let alone the love for poor Pollux

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

If there is any way our rescue can help Pollux out (I didn't realize it had gotten to this stage), please let me know. I even have some space at my home if you need a respite.

the best wariant - why not think about this but about "film star" this not important and not help for this dog. and IF not read this point realy and put him to "10 acres" - castrated him please

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

As I mentioned above, it isn't "willy nilly" breeding. You also have no idea what you are talking about, obviously, in regards to working theatrical animals. Most of my dogs have worked doing theatrical projects - my dogs have been in product demonstration videos as well as in soap operas, TV shows, etc. Having dogs trained to that level is not only daily work in training various behaviors, but keeping them in prime condition, and doing the actual work. Funny that the actual time they are in front of the cameras is miniscule in comparison to all the background work done to get them to that point. So, yes, it is work.
And I am more than happy to see Pollux go to that wrangler. He will blossom there.
And as an aside, I do not have the ability to neuter him - that is his owner's decision - and personally I do not feel that neutering him would be beneficial to his temperament, either. For Pollux, I think a little bit of testosterone is a good thing. I am more concerned about his psychological welfare than an unfounded fear that he will be bred "willy-nilly."

beter shoot this dog

[Tassle]

I know you mentioned that you might like to breed from him. Has this guy offered you a pup if he breeds?

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

First, I did want to point out to Marcy (and thank you for the offer of respite!) that some states (Florida is one of them) considers wolf-dog crosses to be exotic animals and you need a permit. Not every state considers them domestic dogs. The FL law was recently changed and is, unfortunately, very UNCLEAR - stating that if the dog looks like a wolf it is to be treated as such and the same requirements of ownership apply (specific enclosures, etc.).

I thought Florida went by percentages - i.e, if a dog is over 75% wolf then it is treated...I think as "medium level" wildlife (not as dangerous as a gorilla, but more dangerous than a tortoise), and has requirements than correspond. All species can be possessed if they are part of exhibition, with a permit, bonds, etc. That is reasonable, I guess, from a legal standpoint (though it is difficult to prove percentages), and in line with most other states. I think most people who own a wolfdog that is 75%+ (with genuine proof) would agree it takes more specialized care than the average dog. It's really a huge question for our breed here, how they will be treated if they came into a legal situation - even with pedigrees. They are the only breed that AKC (begrudgedly) acknowledges comes from recent wolf crossings. Uncharted territory. While AKC does have some legal influence because of the money it lavishes on politicians as a special interest group, it really has no authority. States could potentially ban our breed, because of it's history...it's why I always encourage prospective owners to know all of the laws that could potentially apply to them.

[Rona]

11-05-2010, 21:42:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

No worries on that score - my girlfriend is an excellent trainer, and is well-known for turning out confident, happy working dogs.

Today, 22:22:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

And I am more than happy to see Pollux go to that wrangler. He will blossom there."

Some people never have any doubts...