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Breeding Information about breeding, selection, litters.... |
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28-10-2008, 20:07 | #21 |
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Hmmmmm…
I do not understand way serious breeder would bee against DNA tests ? DNA test can se what no breeder can se, it is like a X-ray on the dogs hereditary health genes, but better. You can take away bad genes before the first litter is born, not wait and se… Soon there will be no HD and ED X-ray, it will bee one HD and ED DNA test, whit 100% safety. And as some of you say, we can talk and se fore are self’s, I would like to ask way all the diseases are still in are breed ??? If the breeders can se all hereditary diseases there would hopefully be much less of them I think. Yes some breeders will try to cheat, but whit a DNA database it will be harder to do this, not easier. And even whit about 4-6 standard DNA results the breeders will have to look at the exterior, and the buyers will have to look fore work, bonitation and show results. The DNA database would bee a complement fore the breeders, not a 100% breeding standard list. And no I do not wont a black list…I wont the list whit the healthy dogs. And one list of hereditary diseases to look out fore, no names on any dogs please. But I understand way some breeders do not wont DNA tests, because it will cost a bit and there is no way to hide away a bad result. Best regards / Mikael
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28-10-2008, 23:38 | #22 | |||||
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If I live in Belgium I will be really against this test because the way it will be done and the huge problem it will brings. But I really think in see how much will coast for make DNA test in all litter I do, and, if possible, talk with the laboratories for we make a DNA database as save the blood line of the dogs for possible future use, but this is for a not much far future. Quote:
Even that will not mean we can put out all dogs wich have or pass problems, unhaply we not have genetic pool for do it. Quote:
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But, we enter again in the poor genetic pool problem, and this will follow all breeders until the line be PROPERLLY open. Soppose we find a old displasic CzW with a really rare line, a uncommon line wich will make a really good open of blood. What would you, as breeder do? Put this dog outside breeding because his hips isn't good enough and kill a new open pure line with the future death of this old dog? Make alitter with he using a famale with really good hips and wich is pretty know for pass these good hips for it's offsprings? Every people with common sense will have the first action, take the dog out the breeding because his bad hips, but it isn't so easy, doing it you will lost a really good opportunity to open the line of the breeding with a pure animal, and you can't imagine how this is precious for every breed with such little genetic pool. If we take the second option, use the displasic dog with a good female, all puppies probably will carry the displasy gene, supose that 50% will show the problem and 50% not, with selection we can fix again the displasy problem in this specific line, and everyone that will use this line must be awared about it. Remembering with the high consanguinity in this breed, probably every dog carry the displasy problem, but most part of good selected animals with correct body don't show it. If we don't use this displasic open lined dog, soon more illness than only displasy will appear because the high imbreeding, it will be worst than displasic puppies I can guarantee it to you, soon we will need open the line with.. a carpatian wolf, it wil be like start of the 0 again with the new line, a lot of work will must be done for this new line be tipical at the CzW again, principally in behaviour. Every decision must be really well thinked before be done, principally when we talk about take lines out of breeding. Remembering that I'm not saying here that is correct use displasyc dog, or that displasic dogs may not be discarted of breeding, but if appear a very special case like the one I cited here. Quote:
Ask yourself, why lack some HD and ED results in some dogs wich sometimes we knows have problems? look what Margo write before and you will see why these bad results lack. So, when you start search for a new dog, start look wich breeders or litters lack most results, it's easy and sometimes you can even confirm some of the gossips you listen.
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29-10-2008, 00:26 | #23 | |
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Greetings Rolf Last edited by Juniorwolf; 29-10-2008 at 00:31. |
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29-10-2008, 00:35 | #24 | |
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In this case wner/breeder can send e-mail tho this breeder asking for information about litters and a copy of the HD / ED results too, quest how many dogs had problems and so on, it's a interess question, like breeder wich go searching for informations about possible problematic dogs in the breed But, we can find some breeders wich not like here, announce his litters and send the datas... only of the good results dogs, so, its pretty interessing whern you have alitter with 2 dogs C and the others without result isn't it?
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29-10-2008, 01:16 | #25 | |
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Greetings Rolf |
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29-10-2008, 02:15 | #26 | |
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I never told here that they're bad because not put informations here, it's only you read again. Who have nothing to fear won't hide informations, I really won't believe in a breeder wich only say "I never have problems in my kennel, all my dogs are healty and HD free" without show and proof it to me with official pappers, even a copy or photo.
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29-10-2008, 04:23 | #27 | |
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Greetings Rolf |
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29-10-2008, 11:18 | #28 | |
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Some illnesses are not inheritated on a simple way and more genes are responsible for it - in such cases maybe it will be never possibile to make any DNA tests... Anyway I don't want to say the people here do nothing and hide everything. NO! I have really good news for you... Since some years we collect information about reasons of death - we put into the database when the dog died, why (if it was natural reason or not). Thanks to the breeders and owners we will be able soon to make first statistics how long CzW really live (when we will filter out the unnatural reasons) and the most common causes. But it is not all - we collect also infromation about the health: the breeders and owners can choose if the information they send will be published on the Wolfdog or not (and used only for statistisc and other tests). So the infromation is already collected and will appear in the new database.... |
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29-10-2008, 12:12 | #29 | |
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And other breeders? As you know Wolfdog base on cooperation - nobody forse people to use the possibility to advertise here. For example it is clearly wrote by adding the ad about the new litter: "Free-of-charge advertisements base on reciprocal benefits - You get a chance to announce your litter effectively and for free and we receive from you the information about puppies and owners as a "payback". Until you don't fulfill the conditions described in paragraph 7) you will not be able to place more advertisements. Resending of the overdue information to us will result in your future advertisements being published again." Do you know how many breeders keep contact only till they sell the puppies... after it we get nothing... till the next litter. And when you do not publish the next litter they write about "persecution of their kennel"... No Rolf, believe me - the really good breeders I know have always all their information listed here. Even if it is not for them they make it for the puppy owners (the new owners can not add photos to the gallery or show results of their dogs till the dog is not listed in the database). With small exceptions where the breeder really do not have time or has some personal problems the principle is: "missing information in the database = unresponsible breeder or even puppy mill" Sorry, it is so... |
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29-10-2008, 13:09 | #30 | |
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As I wrote before - Please keep an open mind ! Greetings Rolf Last edited by Juniorwolf; 29-10-2008 at 13:14. |
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29-10-2008, 13:30 | #31 |
ir Brukne
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So is it better to keep the information about everyone's dog in secret? I think every responsible breeder or owner should be VERY happy there is a database like this and we all should try to put here as much information about wolfdogs as possible...
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29-10-2008, 14:03 | #32 | |
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I can write this over and over again - Please keep an open mind Greetings Rolf |
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29-10-2008, 14:11 | #33 | |
ir Brukne
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29-10-2008, 14:37 | #34 |
Senior Member
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Hello Mikael. One reaction to your first question. You mean, Orlik had curly coat. But Orlik had parents too. He MUST have it from some parent. You can ask us: Why was in breeding his father Rep z PS, if he had not corect coat?
http://www.wolfdog.org/drupal/cs/gallery/pic/23768/ I answer you: in 80. years of 20. century was 75% of slovakian population related to Rep z PS. If breeders could´not use him, the breeding was ending in the begin of breeding. I remember Rep z PS. It was wonderfull male with dancing steps, ideal male. So we must ignorate some defect. He gived much good dogs and some bad, of course. It is reason, why we must to do selection. Maybe it is answer for other people in second forum. Unfortunatelly not exist selection!!!! Much people "produces" all wolfdogs. Without bonitation, without HD results, not exist breeding comission for guarding of health of breed....Sad. Funny is when bad dogs (for breeding here) from Czech republic are sold to west Evropa and they are "perfect" breeding dogs. It is normal. I think, we have not chance to change it, when we will sell pups by money. If somewhere are money, other things are outside. But we are people, it is BASE of people. |
29-10-2008, 14:43 | #35 |
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Hi hi, Daiva. Will you write about your dogs openly to all World? For example : "my male has operated bones or my dog have bad teeth," etc etc....? And if somebody will know some top secret info about your dogs and this person will write here: Don´t use Daiva male, he has this and this.....I think, you will never speak with this people...Or yes?
So I think, this situation is normal (to keeping of "bad " info top secret), but I don´t think it is good. But nobody can change it. Exist thousands defects of this breed. But good breeder CAN watch it and he CAN use only good dogs for breeding. Maybe only for his good feeling. And if somebody breed dogs with defect and he knows it.....nobody can change it. |
29-10-2008, 14:44 | #36 | |
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On the other side: breeding of dogs is not rising puppies for new owners but it is about the whole breed. When I have the litter I have it not only to sell thew puppies and to be happy the puppies have nice new owners... Sure, it is the main thing but beside of it I make matings that can be useful for other breeders. That's why I'm asking dog owners to make x-rays, breeding rights even if the want to have dog "only" as family member... And you will find MANY breeders which handle similar way - they make litters, have new owners, but at the same time they really do something for the breed. Some of them NEVER wrote a post here, they are not involved in the fights and nobody never wrote their name here in bad way.... But still they send the infromation and updates - typical responsible breeders which really care not only for themself.... I really do not want to attack them but imagine - maybe there are some interesting males, interesting healthy lines in Denemark. It is good to hide them? Information about them if they can help us to make the breed better, healthier? |
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29-10-2008, 14:52 | #37 | |
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Don`t misunderstand me, I like this database a lot, but still not all people have to like the same or have same interests as me to be good owners/breeders/friends ! Greetings Rolf |
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29-10-2008, 14:58 | #38 | |
ir Brukne
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Being open is a best thing to feel safe from any gossiping |
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29-10-2008, 15:06 | #39 |
Senior Member
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Hmmmm, so not Daiva. My answer was to Vaiva. But the questions and anwsers are always the same . And one question more: why you have almost the same nick?
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29-10-2008, 15:08 | #40 |
ir Brukne
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Well, these are our names. Real ones. Daiva Rimaityte and Vaiva Zostautaite There is also a Lithuanian name Vaida, so don't be surprised if one day... But this is OT
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