Question about the oldest and best breeders

Dharkwolf · 17-07-2007, 23:51

Allow me a few comments -

1) Ancestor loss coefficient has nothing to do with wolf blood. It is in fact an attempt to measure inbreeding (in this respect it is similar to the wright coefficient)

2) Wright Coefficient - like I said a measurement of inbreeding - my personal preferences? I would frown on having a dog in the last five generations with a wright coefficient of 5 or more, and would avoid anyone with a wright coefficient of 8 or more, but this is not a hard and fast rule. The important thing to remember about the wright coefficient is that the *total* wright coefficient is essentially meaningless - you have to look at the coefficient of each ancestor. Thus if a dog has 4 ancestors which each provide a wright coefficient of 2 - the total would be 8 but in my opinion that dog is fine. A dog which on the other hand has a single ancestor which gives a wright coefficient of 8 would be seriously inbred.

3) Wolf blood - we keep track of this mostly for the fun of it really - unlike what you might have read elsewhere, in practice it does not seem to correlate with any of the traits which you would expect. i.e. there is no correlation between wolf blood and wolfish appearance, or between wolf blood and wolf-like character traits (whatever those might be!). 35% wolf blood for a CSV is actually very high, I would be hard pressed to find an animal alive today with such a high wolf content 26-32% seems to be the typical range (though even that number can be a bit high)

As to whether there are well known breeders out there which meet all of your requirements? Possibly. Though people would most likely not agree on who those breeders would be. Unfortunately the breeders which I can think of that would fit into that category probably would never dream of shipping a pup to the US - there are very good reasons for not wanting to do this if you are a good breeder, i.e. you want to keep your breeding stock available for your lines, you want to be able to intervene if there are problems with your pups, you want to be on hand to give advice to the owners of your pups, you want to avoid there being too much hype about your dogs in a far off country... (we know of several distinct problems that CSVs encounter in the US, although ultimately it is up to your state veterinary authority, they seem to be usually considered wolf hybrids, and this has some important implications)

There is an interesting question - Are all the breeders on the list genuine CSV breeders? Well they all breed CSVs... unfortunately in the past there have been instances of breeders providing false information to wolfdog, which took some time to verify that a problem really existed. Where this has been found out those breeders have been removed from the list. You could say that the list is the best there is, but it cannot be taken as an absolute guarantee of anything.

My advice to you would be to wait and watch. Getting a wolfdog is not a decision to be taken lightly. If I had been properly informed I am not sure I would have ever gotten one... but then again I never really got one, rather I married a wolfdog breeder

So take your time, get to know more about the breed, ask questions, both in the forum and privately. CSVs can make great family dogs, I think both our bitches fall into that category (well, when they aren't trying to kill any guests which they have not been properly introduced to yet) but I also know of wolfdogs which are the kind of dog which you would never want to have as a family dog - for a variety of reasons.

Take your time, learn. Pup season is not really till November anyhow

Mirkawolf · 18-07-2007, 00:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharkwolf

My advice to you would be to wait and watch. Getting a wolfdog is not a decision to be taken lightly. If I had been properly informed I am not sure I would have ever gotten one... but then again I never really got one, rather I married a wolfdog breeder

Just for info, we are NOT breeding at the moment. There will be no puppies from Vlci sen for several years. So this is NOT promotion of our kennel, just well meant advices.

dog_cooker · 23-07-2007, 03:17

Thank you, you all have been very helpful.

mijke · 18-07-2007, 20:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dharkwolf

2) Wright Coefficient - like I said a measurement of inbreeding - my personal preferences? I would frown on having a dog in the last five generations with a wright coefficient of 5 or more, and would avoid anyone with a wright coefficient of 8 or more, but this is not a hard and fast rule.

Hi Dharkwolf

Sorry, but I don't understand

In the database of each dog is mentionend the total of the Wright Coefficient of all his ancestors in 5 generations.
And I always thought that the max avarage (total) WC was between 10 -15 % (like a lot of CsW, even yours and mine have)

And yes I understand

your explanation about single ancestor which gives a high wright coefficient .

Maybe it is because of the language problem for me that I don't understand correct

17-07-2007, 23:51	#1
Dharkwolf Junior Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Brussels Posts: 201	Allow me a few comments - 1) Ancestor loss coefficient has nothing to do with wolf blood. It is in fact an attempt to measure inbreeding (in this respect it is similar to the wright coefficient) 2) Wright Coefficient - like I said a measurement of inbreeding - my personal preferences? I would frown on having a dog in the last five generations with a wright coefficient of 5 or more, and would avoid anyone with a wright coefficient of 8 or more, but this is not a hard and fast rule. The important thing to remember about the wright coefficient is that the total wright coefficient is essentially meaningless - you have to look at the coefficient of each ancestor. Thus if a dog has 4 ancestors which each provide a wright coefficient of 2 - the total would be 8 but in my opinion that dog is fine. A dog which on the other hand has a single ancestor which gives a wright coefficient of 8 would be seriously inbred. 3) Wolf blood - we keep track of this mostly for the fun of it really - unlike what you might have read elsewhere, in practice it does not seem to correlate with any of the traits which you would expect. i.e. there is no correlation between wolf blood and wolfish appearance, or between wolf blood and wolf-like character traits (whatever those might be!). 35% wolf blood for a CSV is actually very high, I would be hard pressed to find an animal alive today with such a high wolf content 26-32% seems to be the typical range (though even that number can be a bit high) As to whether there are well known breeders out there which meet all of your requirements? Possibly. Though people would most likely not agree on who those breeders would be. Unfortunately the breeders which I can think of that would fit into that category probably would never dream of shipping a pup to the US - there are very good reasons for not wanting to do this if you are a good breeder, i.e. you want to keep your breeding stock available for your lines, you want to be able to intervene if there are problems with your pups, you want to be on hand to give advice to the owners of your pups, you want to avoid there being too much hype about your dogs in a far off country... (we know of several distinct problems that CSVs encounter in the US, although ultimately it is up to your state veterinary authority, they seem to be usually considered wolf hybrids, and this has some important implications) There is an interesting question - Are all the breeders on the list genuine CSV breeders? Well they all breed CSVs... unfortunately in the past there have been instances of breeders providing false information to wolfdog, which took some time to verify that a problem really existed. Where this has been found out those breeders have been removed from the list. You could say that the list is the best there is, but it cannot be taken as an absolute guarantee of anything. My advice to you would be to wait and watch. Getting a wolfdog is not a decision to be taken lightly. If I had been properly informed I am not sure I would have ever gotten one... but then again I never really got one, rather I married a wolfdog breeder So take your time, get to know more about the breed, ask questions, both in the forum and privately. CSVs can make great family dogs, I think both our bitches fall into that category (well, when they aren't trying to kill any guests which they have not been properly introduced to yet) but I also know of wolfdogs which are the kind of dog which you would never want to have as a family dog - for a variety of reasons. Take your time, learn. Pup season is not really till November anyhow __________________

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23-07-2007, 03:17	#3
dog_cooker Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Posts: 7	Thank you, you all have been very helpful.