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Wolves and wolfdogs All about animals similar to CzW... Information about other Wolfdogs: Saarloos Wolfhound, Lupo Italiano... |
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04-12-2011, 02:54 | #21 | |
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04-12-2011, 09:35 | #22 | |
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04-12-2011, 17:59 | #23 |
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I guess I wrote so much before that my question became garbled in everything else... My actual question was, with an owner that doesn't know what to do with a dog of this capability, what other method is there? I understand if a dog belonged to an experienced trainer, there would be time to use other methods (they shouldn't have reach that state in the first place if that was the case). When someone desperate for help called Cesar, he does what is efficient and quick... Given the circumstances, I am having a hard time understanding the hostility towards him and his methods if that is what the case calls for.. He says he "Rehabilitates dogs and trains humans".. Of course there are more subtle ways to deal with issues.. I see it as an equal to some psychotherapy, where someone is driven to the breaking point to get out / over a fear, or traumatic experience..
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04-12-2011, 21:07 | #24 | |
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04-12-2011, 22:29 | #25 |
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I understand
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05-12-2011, 02:29 | #26 |
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I have noticed that most Cesar fans are people who have little or no up-to-date scientific information / knowledge about the social life & communication of wolves & dogs, and what has been learned about the effectiveness of different training ideologies & methods.
Everyone who has been following his/her time in canine science aswell as the studies about the learning process in different mammals, know exactly why Cesar's methods are out dated and harmfull, and today completely lack scientific base, -or in better words: is today scientifically proven to be incorrect. For further reading I recomment people to Google "Dominance theory", and read the articles that come up. Also here are some that I had bookmarked: http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/20...imal-behaviour http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose...ancemyths.aspx http://www.apdt.com/petowners/choose/dominance.aspx http://www.apdt.com/petowners/articl...s/Yin_MA09.pdf http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/iss..._yJC0.facebook The wolf bilogist Dr Dave Mech talks about why the "alpha" term he himself is somewhat responsible for, is incorrect and out dated: Last edited by Jennin Lauma; 05-12-2011 at 02:33. |
05-12-2011, 03:05 | #27 |
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LOL... I guess I was trying to get someone to actually mention a specific alternative, rather than just tell me, "what he did was wrong". It is obvious that there are newer and more acceptable ways to get this specific dog to be helped... BTW, Thanks for the links...
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05-12-2011, 06:23 | #28 |
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If you hire a real, trained, licensed behaviorist, they wouldn't offer you a 'quick fix' and would have no reason to.
That is, unless someone prefers hiring someone so they can end up on TV. PS., if that were my dog i would work on increasing his threshold, and not purposely push him over it knowing the limit of it already. and this dog is not 'rehabbed' as i would not trust him to behave better freely next time either... :/ Test the dog.. and if the dog will react within X feet, then stay outside of that threshold until you have been able to redirect the dog successfully and continuously, before decreasing the distance, for example. at least that's how i would approach it, based on what I see in this video, but of course nobody would give you unqualified advice without actually seeing and interacting with the dog in life. Last edited by yukidomari; 05-12-2011 at 06:46. |
05-12-2011, 12:01 | #29 | |
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that's how it is generally done, it's called "desensitization training" and its purpose is exactly to change the dog's state of mind with respect to the particular situation, by the use of counter conditioning. The results this method gives you are final (provided you don't repeat the same mistakes), since the problem is solved in the dog's head. The "problem" is, it takes time (weeks or even months), patience, skills and energy... Millan has to solve the situation in 10 minutes of a TV episode in order to sell his product, so he does what people generally want and expect: make the owner's life easier with a "quick and simple" method. Last edited by Fede86; 05-12-2011 at 12:07. |
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05-12-2011, 20:18 | #30 | |
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Last edited by AMERICANI; 05-12-2011 at 20:21. |
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05-12-2011, 20:39 | #31 | |
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I taught my CsV a solid 'leave it' when it comes to my little dogs and when he is getting to be too aggravating to them (stepping on them, punching them, etc). Course you start with 'leave it' at a distance on something not very valuable, and work your way up. |
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05-12-2011, 21:12 | #32 | |
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That's the basic concept. I'm no dog trainer but I would probably start from a distance that cause no tension at all, reducing it at a pace that never allows it to reach levels that cause the dogs to express the unwanted behavior (when eliminating a bad behavior you want to reduce its frequency to a minimum, so you avoid to put the dog in a position where that behavior surfaces). I guess the specifics of the method may vary depending on the dog and on the situation. Last edited by Fede86; 05-12-2011 at 21:17. |
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05-12-2011, 22:10 | #33 |
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Good posts Fede86 & yukidomari
You two took the words out of my mouth (I completely agree with you, and would have given the exact same answers). When dealing with wolfdogs, unsocial behaviour (towards other canines and especially of same sex) is quite typical, and absolutely natural behaviour for a wolf. Wolves are often concidered being pack animals, and therefore incorrectly interpret to be social animals. But the truth is that wolves live in family units, and usually the pack consists of a mother and a father and their offspring from the last couple springs untill they mature and leave the pack to find their own territory & mate. Of course there will always be exceptions to rules and so it is in this case too; there are some reported cases of more complex wolf pack structures than described above, but those are just that; exceptions and usually occur only under special circumstances. |
06-12-2011, 01:00 | #34 |
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CsVs
All of mine (with aggression problems toward each other) are Csvs.. I do have one mutt male. They all grew up together as pups.. So you you are saying there is still a chance of them never getting along together? I do not have any 3 Csvs that can be together right now, and I am very eager to try something.. I'm just waiting for something that makes sense lol..
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06-12-2011, 14:39 | #35 | |
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The problem with using the "quick fix" of dominance training is that, like it's been said, you're only treating the symptom, not the cause. What ends up happening is you "break" the dog. Sure, she'll behave, but her personality will be changed. She will lose the confidence to make decisions for fear of correction, and that's no way for a dog to live. You want to slowly desensitize to the stimulus in a way that keeps them from escalating in the first place, so they learn to be more calm on their own, because it's rewarding. Honestly, you can read, read, read about methods that can help, but if you're confused at all about how to proceed, the best thing would be to find a positive personal trainer who is accustomed to sensitive, willful breeds. If you go to Victoria Stillwell's website, positively.com, she's started a group of trainers all specializing in positive reinforcement training. It might be a good place to start looking. |
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06-12-2011, 16:46 | #36 |
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Just my two cents - maybe going all passive (waiting for them to calm) may be fastened a bit by active desensitization - like redirecting attention and otherwise showing the dog what is the right thing to do. But, of course, still slowly, still starting from the safe distance, and I think what complicates it is that you actually need another person to direct the other dog, as you don't want one going crazy while the other is desensitized.
But positive reinforcement is the best in this case for sure, the dog shouldn't be punished because it is put in the proximity of something it does not like. I only punish my dog if she actively goes and attacks another female even though she was told not to, and that punishment is physically taking her out of the conflict, and then giving her commands she has to obey and are completely boring and she has to do them properly and look at me, not the other dog, until she does it in the way that deserves praising and then I praise her and she can go run again. If she ignores the other bitch, or redirects her attention to me when called, I praise her. And I must say it helps, although slowly (I prefer to walk in places where there are no other females, so I don't train it often enough).
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Saschia (Sasa Zahradnikova) http://www.chiens-loup-tchecoslovaqu...ei-et-damon.ws |
06-12-2011, 19:31 | #37 |
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Americani, how old are your csv and which sex are they? Neutered?
To be save, means keeping only a male and female of csv. Sometimes mother and daugther works. But all other combination do not work when they did mature. I am talking about the regular average case. having two males will work if there is no female. Even a neutered female and intact female will not work. That is the normal case. CSV are to dominant and to aggressiv. So you do not have to try to train them, but you have to seperate them and built two packs and a save fence between them, a double fence. Christian www.wolfdogs-siouxtala.de |
06-12-2011, 19:34 | #38 |
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Thanks both of you.. Saschia, you are saying exactly what I described earlier
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06-12-2011, 19:43 | #39 | |
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I don't want to lose hope.... All of these pics I see on Wolfdog of 5 or 6 all playing together... is it a temperament issue? Thank you.. I have them separated in different pens.. I just want to enjoy the lake and hiking and do things together. I hate bringing 2 and leaving the rest at home Last edited by AMERICANI; 06-12-2011 at 20:02. |
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06-12-2011, 20:24 | #40 |
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It may or may not be; and it matters if the dogs pictured are actually all related and grew up together with their mother and fathers, aunts and uncles, etc. It also matters the ages of the dogs.
Last edited by yukidomari; 06-12-2011 at 20:29. |
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