Health results (also DM!!) in the Wolfdog.org database

[admin]

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel

I don't think that is wise to do, on several levels mistakes (on purpose or unintentional) can be made. And by doing that people can not see anymore if the dog is clear by genetic test or by his/her parents test.

You right - it is why it will be written by every result if it is official (and who made it) or unofficial (basing on the results of the parents or the offsprings).

[jmvdwiel]

Don't you think that breeder wil point to the database...see my dog is free... so I don't have to show you a result and I don't have to test

And I think that people wil read the unofficial result like it is official and make their discision based on this 'test' that was not done.....

[GalomyOak]

What about the puppies of "unofficial" dogs? Example: Grandparents all negative by test, parents clear because of this...at least for our testing clinic (OFFA), this 3rd generation must be tested to be considered clear (in case there is some new mutation, I guess)

[admin]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

What about the puppies of "unofficial" dogs?

No - it is only for one generation. One forward and one back.
Alrready now we were able to find out several DM-carriers what is important for the owners because the dogs do not live anymore and can not be tested - buy owners of their puppies know not there there is a possibility that their dogs can be also carriers.

[loco]

Maybe you also can give HD/ED results based on the test off the parents ???

Just no result without a official test result .
Otherwise we are back to the Fairytales again .

[woland77]

This choice is wrong from scientific point view, and agaist international accreditation rule's.
Between Mendel laws and and the exact match of a gene transmitted, thera are human hand, and potential error, or mistake.
Is for this than International Accreditation Law ask for every animal (not only dog), ufficial test result. Only with this rules genetic selection can be free from mistake,fraud.

[saschia]

What is also important - and especially now - is to keep in consideration that you can infer the genetics of a pup from the official results of it's ancestors only if you are sure about the parentage. Because otherwise all Czechoslovak wolfdogs are still BB in theory. And of course, it does not rule out mutations.

[koboldine]

I don't think that this decision is wise.
From scientific point of view - it's deadly wrong, because genetic rules are figured out by human are not nature's rules, neccessarily.
There still is a chance that genes undergo mutation - in either way.

Furthermore, it will include - and exclude - potential breeding "material" only just because of assumption.
And it will not force people to pay for an official test, on the contrary, why take (and pay for) a test if my dog is already marked as N/? - when it's enough to breed with...

You have put so many hours and work into this data base - with this decision it will become less valueable, less reliable. That would be a great loss for our breed.

Please, at least re-think this decision, I know this is a private page and data base but you have many users who - like you - are interested in the future of the Czech.Wolfdogs.

[admin]

Originally Posted by koboldine

I don't think that this decision is wise.
From scientific point of view - it's deadly wrong, because genetic rules are figured out by human are not nature's rules, neccessarily.
There still is a chance that genes undergo mutation - in either way.

OFFA tested about 20.000 dogs - there was not even ONE muttation. It is why they give certificates for the puppies that they are "free" when the parents are tested and free.

It is made by the most known laboratory. Believe me - they would not make it of they will have ANY doubts that it is ok.

Originally Posted by saschia

What is also important - and especially now - is to keep in consideration that you can infer the genetics of a pup from the official results of it's ancestors only if you are sure about the parentage. Because otherwise all Czechoslovak wolfdogs are still BB in theory. And of course, it does not rule out mutations.

Yes, thats right. And especially the "unofficial" results can help to correct it. We had some cases where the puppies of a DM/DM dog get the result N/N. Almost nobody cared about it - they were sure that it is OK (because of "mutation"). But it was NOT. In all every case it was mistake made by the laboratory.
Another possible explanation of such cases is that the parentage is not OK.
If the owners have "unofficial" information which will be different than the results they will receive it can force them to make more investigation - to test the parentage or to repeat the DM-test. If will help to clear such cases.

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

This choice is wrong from scientific point view, and agaist international accreditation rule's.
Between Mendel laws and and the exact match of a gene transmitted, thera are human hand, and potential error, or mistake.
Is for this than International Accreditation Law ask for every animal (not only dog), ufficial test result. Only with this rules genetic selection can be free from mistake,fraud.

Basing on this we can not publish ANY results because even the "official" results are not 100% sure. There is a problem with the OFFICIAL laboratory Vetlabor which made mistakes while testing the probes. But EVEN the Laboklin makes mistakes and this week we received new results of a dog whose owners received the results N/N but the dogs is N/DM (he was tested for MH instead of DM).

If we can not be sure that even the OFFICIAL results are 100% clear of "human hand" why we should post ANY results?
Remember that the same apply to HD results - they are ALWAYS subjective. Sure they meassure the angles but still there is sometimes even 20% differences between vets in one country.


You will NEVER be sure if a person will not make a "mistake". There will be always a small percetage of possible errors.

But even OFFA makes the same as we do - if the parents are tested by OFFA the puppies are treated the same way like we do. If there is a parentage test the puppies will even receive OFFICIAL certificartes WITHOUT testing. And they really know that they are doing...

About mutations: they exist but the possibility that they appear is so small that they are pased over. Only here of forum people try to explain every abnormality with "mutattion".

[woland77]

Originally Posted by Admin

Basing on this we can not publish ANY results because even the "official" results are not 100% sure. There is a problem with the OFFICIAL laboratory Vetlabor which made mistakes while testing the probes. But EVEN the Laboklin makes mistakes and this week we received new results of a dog whose owners received the results N/N but the dogs is N/DM (he was tested for MH instead of DM).

If we can not be sure that even the OFFICIAL results are 100% clear of "human hand" why we should post ANY results?
Remember that the same apply to HD results - they are ALWAYS subjective. Sure they meassure the angles but still there is sometimes even 20% differences between vets in one country.


You will NEVER be sure if a person will not make a "mistake". There will be always a small percetage of possible errors.

But even OFFA makes the same as we do - if the parents are tested by OFFA the puppies are treated the same way like we do. If there is a parentage test the puppies will even receive OFFICIAL certificartes WITHOUT testing. And they really know that they are doing...

About mutations: they exist but the possibility that they appear is so small that they are pased over. Only here of forum people try to explain every abnormality with "mutattion".

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest. This is not my think, is International Rules of Accreditation about zootechnical lab.
You can ask here: is official italian istitution for laboratory rules on Breeding, human healt, food and more...and they take international rules...
we have those information from this institut..

[mijke]

Originally Posted by koboldine

….. Furthermore, it will include - and exclude - potential breeding "material" only just because of assumption.
And it will not force people to pay for an official test, on the contrary, why take (and pay for) a test if my dog is already marked as N/? - when it's enough to breed with...

Originally Posted by woland77

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest...

I agree with you

I am not happy at all with publishing unofficial test results for several reasons that others did already mention.
And I also am not happy with labs that accept swabs of owners (without checking chip by an independent vet) for DNA tests…. (Owners can make mistakes and breeders have more chances to cheat)

And based on this a lot more mistakes can be made (wrong conclusions) with publishing unofficial results

[admin]

Originally Posted by woland77

Nothing are 100% clear, but if we publish only official test, one for each dog, step by step, any errors will be revealed soon. If we start to deduce the transmission of genes, as Mendelian, we can make mistake to people of Wolfodog. Off course ufficial aboratory cane make error, but laboratory must answer for their mistakes, in law contest.

What will happen if they will test DM/DM dog and write that the dog is N/N? I will tell you: NOTING. Sure they will pay something - sure you can sue them (but remember they have good layers and please read again the contract you signed with them). But the puppies - maybe some DM/DM - WILL BE BORN? It can not be withdrawed.

[admin]

Originally Posted by loco

Maybe you also can give HD/ED results based on the test off the parents ???.

There is a basic difference between HD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygenetic) and PRA/dwarf/DM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogenetic)....

[GalomyOak]

http://offa.org/dna_cbp.html

Above is the link to OFFA's policy on "Clear by Parentage" - maybe it would be useful to put a similar mark "CPB" by dogs who are clear by "official" results from parents - "unofficial" seems to imply results are only those reported by owners (with no official papers/links to back it up) - I think ALL posted health results should stem originally from verified results.

* One other thing that is interesting to note is that all dogs (mother/father/puppy) must be DNA identity profiled to have clear by parentage, to prove they are actually related - so we don't accidentally register mixes...

[loco]

Originally Posted by Admin

There is a basic difference between HD (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygenetic) and PRA/dwarf/DM (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monogenetic)....

,..................... !!!
But it makes me happy you also know .