Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

There does not necessarely need to be tests drawn from the suspected individuals;
in this kind of situations when the suspected dogs have had (according to the pedigree information) several litters and plenty of offspring, one way to try to find out if the pedigrees are correct or not is to test and compare the DNA of the offspring from the suspected individuals. -All the offspring of certain individuals should be genetically (atleast) 50% the same. (Grand children 25% ...and so on).
Maybe it would be easier to find helpfull people among the buyers / owners of the puppies?

Do you mean DNA profile? This is more complicated. Dog is doploid oragisms. Two siblings can have a completely identical DNA profile, or completely different.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Do you mean DNA profile? This is more complicated. Dog is doploid oragisms. Two siblings can have a completely identical DNA profile, or completely different.

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).

I asked our official AKC club DNA profiling lab about this possibility, and they said it was necessary to have both parents, as well as the individual. I guess dogs and humans are different in this way, since I think human siblings can be identified without the DNA of their parents. It's what really makes it so critical to identify and solve these problems before dogs die, and their genes are lost...

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I asked our official AKC club DNA profiling lab about this possibility, and they said it was necessary to have both parents, as well as the individual. I guess dogs and humans are different in this way, since I think human siblings can be identified without the DNA of their parents. It's what really makes it so critical to identify and solve these problems before dogs die, and their genes are lost...

so it's not even possible to tell if two dogs are full siblings if all we have are specimens from the two?

[Rona]

In this situation, if owners of the questioned-identity dogs' parents will continue refusing to cooperate, the only reasonable option is to withdraw ALL suspected dogs/lines from breeding.

...and claim rectification from the breeder?

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).

Our breed is loaded with inbreeding. Variability of the breed (genes) is very small. Dogs are genetically very similar. This is not a problem for "human race" (for example).
The only reliable test is paternity and maternity.

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

[Shadowlands]

Thank you all, you have cleared up a lot of questions in my mind

Now I am only a little confused instead of completely...

It is a shame that DNA from the siblings (and their lines) cannot be used as I, for one, would have submitted that for a test.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

Surely there should be a clear difference due to the different wolf subspecies used in creation of the breeds. Of course these mix breedings done during the years have messed up that to some extent but it should be possible to recognize such mixes also by comparing the dog's genes with the genes of European and American wolves.
But how much the fact, that also GSD was created from wolf x dog crosses, would problemize this since it is in both CsV and SWH?
Is there allready a DNA profile for GSD done? If there is, then it is possible to rule out the genes typical for GSD, and distinguish the ones that are not.

Within the last 15 years there has been massive genetic studies of wolves around the world and these days they can even genetically distinguish different wolf subspecies inside the US. So I'd think it should be relatively easy to distinguish an European wolf from American.

The price for such a test is likely to be alot more expencive than the average parental test though.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Rona

In this situation, if owners of the questioned-identity dogs' parents will continue refusing to cooperate, the only reasonable option is to withdraw ALL suspected dogs/lines from breeding.
...and claim rectification from the breeder?

It is hard to writew it but it seems so.
Due to the fact that the Crying Wolf breeder do not agree to make the DNA tests (is affraid that the true will be shown?) which will proove that father of Sibir is Galiba and that no Saarloos was used by this kennel (intentionally or not). And because we can have doubts by all dogs sired by him - the only reasonable option is to remove all litters with this blood and really put the option "under investigation" warning next to all dogs with the suspicious Crying Wolf blood.
Maybe owners of the offsprings will be more successful by clearing this story.

[Norky]

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...and some Crying Wolf owners made it also ...of course all are csw!
To see what happened when Frank posted his result (Yanatos) these people are not ready to make it for public.
Edit wrote about a year ago that she is not ready to cooperate and write anything here...as she and her dogs were mired several times.

And the kennel Neckartal ....
I think it is enough to see the data sheet ..
Edit for dogs are beautiful, and it is a fact.
Prestigious showresults what many people (including me) only dream of.
One breeder is at home in Hungary, and she is Edit.
We only can we learn from the big breeders.
I see a pointless debate ...
Why can not we bring together more?

[admin]

Originally Posted by Norky

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...

She made it? How can we be sure that she took the blood of the right dogs - males? Why she didn't agree to test the dogs on the official way or by the Lorry's vet and the official laboratory?
Did she testeds the DNA of Sibir - did she have proofs that he is the son of Galiba? I will ask Lorry if she get the copy of the results.

So far: taking into consideration the fact that in many cases words written and published here by Edith were simple lies I will personally not trust her even a bit.
I would be also surprised if any breeder would say "my dogs are mixes"...

If the dogs are OK than I think it will be no problem to make a official comission (maybe made by the clubs from the origin countries) who will travel there and take blood of the dogs (not all of course because there are too many - i mean only the suspicious one. The same can be done in France. It will be pretty easy to arrange it, right?

Originally Posted by Norky

Edit wrote about a year ago that she is not ready to cooperate and write anything here...as she and her dogs were mired several times.

When? I remember the case when she bred the 10 years old bitch after she told she will not breed her anymore and that even that her kennel club forbid breeding with so old dogs. I do not wonder that many breeders didn't agreed with such style of breeding. But it was not attacking but they were just speaking theirs mind. It is something normal on a disscusion forum.

Originally Posted by Norky

Prestigious showresults what many people (including me) only dream of

Can you repeat it to Lorry? She had to take out of breeding her male and female and also all the offspring of the dogs. Becasue nobody DREAMS about red or Saarloos alike puppies.

Originally Posted by Norky

We only can we learn from the big breeders.

Believe me - I'm not an longtime owner but reading the post posted here on forum I hope nobody would learn from her how to breed or how to keep the dogs. In mMy opinion every dog deserves a stately life and decent living conditions and what I see on the photos taken in her kennel do not fullfil even the minimun of the requirements.

[Margo]

Originally Posted by Norky

Edit (Crying Wolf ) made DNA test some of her suspected dogs, all are csw...and some Crying Wolf owners made it also ...of course all are csw!

Lets make me understanding - till now I'm reading here that is will be hard to make parentage tests even basing on the half-siblings. And she was able to make parentage test of dogs which are not living anymore?

I'm the first person who will be happy to know that she didn't made any crosses and the only problem are French American-Wolfdogs. But I'm also the last one who will believe in her words. And anything what was not made on the official.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by Norky

what many people (including me) only dream of.

Un rêve d'avoir un chien de l'affixe Crying Wolf ?
Mais de qui se moque-t-on à la fin !....

A dream of have an dog comming from Crying Wolf?
But what a joke it is!

Je ne vois pas en quoi c'est un rêve d'avoir acheté 3 chiens, dont on à la preuve incontestable qu'il y a eu des croisements dans les lignées, sans pour autant savoir avec certitude à quel niveau exact de la lignée ... ....

I dont see in what is a dream to have bought 3 dogs which have an incontestable proof that mixages happened by their lines, without being sure about in which level of their lines it happened...

Je ne vois pas comme quoi c'est un rêve de devoir stériliser

I dont see how can it be an dream, of have to neuter such dogs

Sibir Crying Wolf (parceque son père est Galiba et que je ne suis pas sûre, que ce soit réellement Galiba)

Sibir Crying Wolf (because his father is Galiba and i'm not sure that it was really Galiba who covered)


Rambo Crying Wolf (parceque son père est ce même Galiba, et que le doute s'est installé dans mon esprit .... Est ce Galiba le Père ?

Rambo Crying Wolf (because his father is this same Galiba, and which doubts has settle in my mind... Is really Galiba the father?)

Thalia Crying Wolf, parceque, c'est avec le mariage avec Sibir que le roux est sorti et que là aussi, je suis incapble de savoir AVEC CERTITUDE ADN, si l'apport de Saarloos, ne pourrait pas venir également du côté de Thalia ....??

Thalia Crying Wolf, because was on its mating with Sibir that the forest-brown dogs appeared, and im incapable of being sure if in its DNA had the introduction of Saarloos, can it comes also by the side of Thalia?

De même, tous les chiens de mon cheptel qui sont des descendants directs de ces 3 chiens, que je n'ose plus utiliser, tellement j'ai la hantise de ressortir du roux ....

In the same way, I dont dare to use any of all my dogs who are direct descendants of these 3 dogs, such is my fear of have forest-brown dogs.

Cerise sur le gateau, je ne vois pas comme quoi c'est un rêve que ces mêmes chiens soient également DM/DM

I dont see how could it be an dream, as these same dogs are also DM/DM

Un rêve dites vous ?
Pour moi c'est tout simplement un CAUCHEMARD !

You said it's a dream, isn't it?
For me it's simply an nightmare!


Un petit message à l'attention de la propriétaire de Galiba :
An quickly message to the owner of Galiba:

Vous êtes vétérinaire parait il ???? un test ADN de votre chien est donc encore plus aisé à pratiquer pour vous que n'importe quel particulier ....
Je ne comprends pas votre obstination à continuer d'accepter de fermer les yeux et de refuser de faire ce test !
Comme je l'ai déjà proposé à l'éleveuse de votre chien, je suis prête à prendre en charge financière les frais de ce test !

Seems you're an veterinary, isn't it? An DNA test of your dog is even more easy to do than any other owner.
I cant understand your determination of keep with your eyes closed and refusing to do such test!
As I've already offered to the breeder of your dog, im willing to pay the costs for you do this test!

Que disent vos yeux le matin quand vous vous brossez les dents devant votre miroir ???
Votre silence complice n'est pas digne du métier que vous avez choisi d'exercer !

What say your conscience at morning when you brush your teeth in the front of a mirror?
Your silence is unworthy of the profession you have chosen to exercise!

SHAME ON YOU !

[Priska182]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Our breed is loaded with inbreeding. Variability of the breed (genes) is very small. Dogs are genetically very similar. This is not a problem for "human race" (for example).
The only reliable test is paternity and maternity.

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

So Damiela is wright and it's our only possibility to reveal the true?