Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[monita]

By the rules of FCI, endogamy is allowed, sibling + sibling, father + its daughter, or mother + its son. This is called inbreeding. We call it line breeding if the parents' relatives are the same somewhere. We call it outerbreeding if we match two different lined parents. This is allowed by the FCI but every country can decide otherwise.
I can answer to genetics, inheritance or other questions.

[Jennin Lauma]

There does not necessarely need to be tests drawn from the suspected individuals;
in this kind of situations when the suspected dogs have had (according to the pedigree information) several litters and plenty of offspring, one way to try to find out if the pedigrees are correct or not is to test and compare the DNA of the offspring from the suspected individuals. -All the offspring of certain individuals should be genetically (atleast) 50% the same. (Grand children 25% ...and so on).
Maybe it would be easier to find helpfull people among the buyers / owners of the puppies?

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

There does not necessarely need to be tests drawn from the suspected individuals;
in this kind of situations when the suspected dogs have had (according to the pedigree information) several litters and plenty of offspring, one way to try to find out if the pedigrees are correct or not is to test and compare the DNA of the offspring from the suspected individuals. -All the offspring of certain individuals should be genetically (atleast) 50% the same. (Grand children 25% ...and so on).
Maybe it would be easier to find helpfull people among the buyers / owners of the puppies?

Do you mean DNA profile? This is more complicated. Dog is doploid oragisms. Two siblings can have a completely identical DNA profile, or completely different.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Do you mean DNA profile? This is more complicated. Dog is doploid oragisms. Two siblings can have a completely identical DNA profile, or completely different.

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).

I asked our official AKC club DNA profiling lab about this possibility, and they said it was necessary to have both parents, as well as the individual. I guess dogs and humans are different in this way, since I think human siblings can be identified without the DNA of their parents. It's what really makes it so critical to identify and solve these problems before dogs die, and their genes are lost...

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I asked our official AKC club DNA profiling lab about this possibility, and they said it was necessary to have both parents, as well as the individual. I guess dogs and humans are different in this way, since I think human siblings can be identified without the DNA of their parents. It's what really makes it so critical to identify and solve these problems before dogs die, and their genes are lost...

so it's not even possible to tell if two dogs are full siblings if all we have are specimens from the two?

[Rona]

In this situation, if owners of the questioned-identity dogs' parents will continue refusing to cooperate, the only reasonable option is to withdraw ALL suspected dogs/lines from breeding.

...and claim rectification from the breeder?

[CDaniela]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

As far as I have understood it is possible to make a DNA test to see if two individuals have same parents (siblings) or one parent (half-siblings) without a sample from the parents needed (by only comparing the supposed siblings DNA to each other).

Our breed is loaded with inbreeding. Variability of the breed (genes) is very small. Dogs are genetically very similar. This is not a problem for "human race" (for example).
The only reliable test is paternity and maternity.

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

[Shadowlands]

Thank you all, you have cleared up a lot of questions in my mind

Now I am only a little confused instead of completely...

It is a shame that DNA from the siblings (and their lines) cannot be used as I, for one, would have submitted that for a test.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

Surely there should be a clear difference due to the different wolf subspecies used in creation of the breeds. Of course these mix breedings done during the years have messed up that to some extent but it should be possible to recognize such mixes also by comparing the dog's genes with the genes of European and American wolves.
But how much the fact, that also GSD was created from wolf x dog crosses, would problemize this since it is in both CsV and SWH?
Is there allready a DNA profile for GSD done? If there is, then it is possible to rule out the genes typical for GSD, and distinguish the ones that are not.

Within the last 15 years there has been massive genetic studies of wolves around the world and these days they can even genetically distinguish different wolf subspecies inside the US. So I'd think it should be relatively easy to distinguish an European wolf from American.

The price for such a test is likely to be alot more expencive than the average parental test though.

[admin]

Originally Posted by Rona

In this situation, if owners of the questioned-identity dogs' parents will continue refusing to cooperate, the only reasonable option is to withdraw ALL suspected dogs/lines from breeding.
...and claim rectification from the breeder?

It is hard to writew it but it seems so.
Due to the fact that the Crying Wolf breeder do not agree to make the DNA tests (is affraid that the true will be shown?) which will proove that father of Sibir is Galiba and that no Saarloos was used by this kennel (intentionally or not). And because we can have doubts by all dogs sired by him - the only reasonable option is to remove all litters with this blood and really put the option "under investigation" warning next to all dogs with the suspicious Crying Wolf blood.
Maybe owners of the offsprings will be more successful by clearing this story.

[Priska182]

Originally Posted by CDaniela

Our breed is loaded with inbreeding. Variability of the breed (genes) is very small. Dogs are genetically very similar. This is not a problem for "human race" (for example).
The only reliable test is paternity and maternity.

If we wanted to determine the difference between SW and CSW, we produce DNA profile of about 100 or more CSW and Sw. Comparing these profiles we can determine the difference. It is likely that some alleles are characteristic only for CSV and others only for Sw. Problem can occur if the genetic difference between SW and SW insignificant (low).

So Damiela is wright and it's our only possibility to reveal the true?