Pollux needs a new home (Florida - USA)

[draggar]

OK, OK... since *I* am the one who actually spoke to the Animal Wrangler/Trainer, I feel the need to clarify a few things...
First, I did want to point out to Marcy (and thank you for the offer of respite!) that some states (Florida is one of them) considers wolf-dog crosses to be exotic animals and you need a permit. Not every state considers them domestic dogs. The FL law was recently changed and is, unfortunately, very UNCLEAR - stating that if the dog looks like a wolf it is to be treated as such and the same requirements of ownership apply (specific enclosures, etc.). We have since joined the FL Lupine Assn to try to lobby against this unfair legal definition. Technically, I can "prove" my vlcaks are not wolf-dog crosses (not recently, anyway) but visually, Pollux looks like a wolf. Period.
Speaking with the wrangler, a lot of his work is also international - a LOT easier to work with domestic dog breed laws as opposed to exotic species laws, so I find no fault in his desire to have a vlcak "wolf pack". Better for the actual work, too, as they are certainly more amenable to training than a wolf-dog.
His intent is simply to replace the wolf-dogs that he currently has, as they are about 10 and a half years old, and with a more consistant gene pool, it's a better bet to get the "look" he wants, rather than "experimenting" with another wolf-to-some-dog-breed mix. He is not looking to produce puppies for sale - he is looking for wolf-looking dogs he can use for animal Talent. I have no problem with this.
Personally I feel we have a working breed, and as such, it is more fulfilling to the individual to WORK. Yes, being a pet in our home is nice - he gets cuddled and spoiled and loved. But he also has a lot of energy and we live in a townhouse in an urban area - though I take the dogs to parks, etc., to run off their energy, it would be better, IMHO, for a dog like Pollux to have a LOT of room to just run full-out and play and wrestle with other dogs. I also am THRILLED that someone who has a LOT of experience with actual wolf-dog and wolf behavior is going to work him - I think that is a perfect fit.
Pollux instinctively does not like being in an urban environment. He will often display neurotic behaviors if he is cooped up longer than normal (if it is a day of constant thunderstorms) I think 10 acres to run on and get exhausted would be healthier for him.
Pollux is still here currently - the wrangler has not contacted us regarding getting him shipped - perhaps he has reconsidered and Pollux will end up staying here. Again, I am not in a rush - he is welcome to stay here indefinitely. I just think that his going out and being a working acting animal with someone who intimiately understands his behavior is perfect. As I mentioned before, I think a working dog should WORK. It brings confidence - especially to those who need a little bit more.
This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the facts. His owner found that she didn't want him and was looking to sell him. We took him in so he would be in a home rather than out in a kennel in her yard until a good home could be found. There was no abuse - lots of dogs are kennel dogs - we just felt it would be better for him to be in a home. From the beginning it was intended to be a "foster" situation - I already have a vlcak, not to mention a GSD and 2 Malinois - and having another dog takes time away from them - the dogs *I* chose to be in my life. I don't have unlimited time, money or energy - or space. I need to make sure that I am fair to my dogs - they all have or have had, a job. All my dogs work doing something, and I have goals in regards to working and titling them. A needy dog like Pollux takes a good deal of time and effort to continually work... is that fair to my other dogs? IS it fair to Pollux? Personally, I think it would be better for him to be in a situation where he gets more time being trained and socialized. The wrangler has 2 other trainers working for him - Pollux would have even more attention, not to mention lots of other dogs to interact with, and people who understand him and do not expect him to be a Golden Retriever, like a lot of "pet" people assume he should be. He will be worked around his instinctive shyness, rather than coddled for it.
This placement is NOT a "pet" placement - in fact I am happier about placing him in this sort of scenario as opposed to a "pet" situation - I feel it is the perfect environment for him to mature and blossom. I spoke to the wrangler at length, and I have been involved in placing rescues since I started in dogs back in 1991 - I do not have reservations about Pollux's future if he does end up going there. No, he may not get to share an ice cream cone with his handler, but I think the trade-off will be better for him.

[tupacs2legs]

If u loved the breed u would at least neuter him before u let him go and not allow willy nilly breeding from him!

Being used once in a while for films etc is not working!! U are kidding yourselves!

[draggar]

As I mentioned above, it isn't "willy nilly" breeding. You also have no idea what you are talking about, obviously, in regards to working theatrical animals. Most of my dogs have worked doing theatrical projects - my dogs have been in product demonstration videos as well as in soap operas, TV shows, etc. Having dogs trained to that level is not only daily work in training various behaviors, but keeping them in prime condition, and doing the actual work. Funny that the actual time they are in front of the cameras is miniscule in comparison to all the background work done to get them to that point. So, yes, it is work.
And I am more than happy to see Pollux go to that wrangler. He will blossom there.
And as an aside, I do not have the ability to neuter him - that is his owner's decision - and personally I do not feel that neutering him would be beneficial to his temperament, either. For Pollux, I think a little bit of testosterone is a good thing. I am more concerned about his psychological welfare than an unfounded fear that he will be bred "willy-nilly."

[tupacs2legs]

Oh dear,do you think u have the only dogs used for that? My own csv is on books and I know exactly what training goes into it....and mine are all trained without torture devices.

Lol methinks this guy wouldn't buy a neutered dog and that's the real reason u won't neuter him first!

Its more about fame it seems that and the dollar not the love of the breed,let alone the love for poor Pollux

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

As I mentioned above, it isn't "willy nilly" breeding. You also have no idea what you are talking about, obviously, in regards to working theatrical animals. Most of my dogs have worked doing theatrical projects - my dogs have been in product demonstration videos as well as in soap operas, TV shows, etc. Having dogs trained to that level is not only daily work in training various behaviors, but keeping them in prime condition, and doing the actual work. Funny that the actual time they are in front of the cameras is miniscule in comparison to all the background work done to get them to that point. So, yes, it is work.
And I am more than happy to see Pollux go to that wrangler. He will blossom there.
And as an aside, I do not have the ability to neuter him - that is his owner's decision - and personally I do not feel that neutering him would be beneficial to his temperament, either. For Pollux, I think a little bit of testosterone is a good thing. I am more concerned about his psychological welfare than an unfounded fear that he will be bred "willy-nilly."

beter shoot this dog

[Tassle]

I know you mentioned that you might like to breed from him. Has this guy offered you a pup if he breeds?

[draggar]

I didn't say an active pet home was a lesser placement. I just said I am more than happy with Pollux going to this placement.
Again, his owner is the one whose business it is to neuter him or not. Personally I prefer intact animals, too, as I like to show. Doesn't mean I breed willy-nilly, or intend to. Never even had an "oops" breeding.
I think the man is responsible enough to be able to handle managing an intact adult.
While Pollux is gorgeous, I do not know how much of his behavior is genetic, so I would not want to breed to him necessarily or take a pup. I am more than happy with ONE vlcak, thank you very much!
Again, we are placing Pollux to please him, not you.
You all are being absolutely ridiculous, getting all up in arms and judgmental over something that has absolutely nothing to do with you, nor have you sacrificed your time and effort to raising this dog. We have. It's our call. If you don't like it, too bad. There are more important things in life for me to dedicate my time to. Obviously explaining our reasoning is useless since you have made up your mind that we are horrible for making the decision and I am no longer going to waste my time on this topic.
Enjoy your glass houses.

[Tazer]

Earlier it was stated that it was Pollux's true owners decision where he was rehomed to, not yours...now you're stating its your choice and its tough if people don't like it.

What is the truth here?

Also, you're not the only people on the Earth to have taken on a dog, someone else didn't want and then had to put time and effort into said dog.

It doesn't make you a Saint, you are not above the rest of us and you can sure as hell still do wrong.

Taz

[Tazer]

I never said you said you are a Saint...just your posts in reference to taking Pollux on, read like you expect us to view you as such.

Also, I wasn't angry, more like incredulous.

Now, I just really can't be bothered to continue to waste my time.

Hopefully Pollux will get a home with understanding owners, who are able to love him for the dog he is, not the dog they want him to be, or for the money he could provide.

Taz

[Tazer]

its great that it sounds like Pollux has found his forever home, where he's wanted for who he is. Would be nice if the new owners would join and post updates on his progress.

Taz

[Rona]

11-05-2010, 21:42:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

No worries on that score - my girlfriend is an excellent trainer, and is well-known for turning out confident, happy working dogs.

Today, 22:22:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

And I am more than happy to see Pollux go to that wrangler. He will blossom there."

Some people never have any doubts...

[draggar]

No, I don't doubt my friend's ability to raise a good working dog - she does so regularly. The problem was that Pollux has some serious shyness issues, and that was a major factor in her decision to look for another home. A shy dog is not necessarily a good working prospect to do what she wanted to do with him.
Pollux lives with us, and we have been charged with finding and screening good homes for him - we have been involved in rescue of various breeds for the last 10+ years, so it is not difficult to screen for a good home.
Our initial hope was to place him in a performance/show home which would require he be kept intact. So far, the "Saarloos mix" accusations have not been confirmed, and I would still place him on a co-own contract, intact. Just because a dog is in a home intact does not mean he will be bred. I have had multiple dogs of my own - all intact - and very few have ever been bred, and I never have had an "oops" breeding in 21 years of dogs.
The other option is an active companion home - where he would be placed neutered. In both cases, the financial terms will be between the adoptor and the owner - I step out of it, even though he has been our financial burden for quite a while. I do not expect reimbursement.
And in both cases, keeping him local will also allow us to inspect the home and make sure that he settles in well and I can help them with socializing him.
I am done with being demonized for trying to do the right thing. It seems that he will not be going out to CA to the wrangler which is too bad, but I am sure we will find him an appropriate home. Thanks for all your help, support and understanding.

[Tassle]

If you were willing to send him out of state for the wrangler - why not for a different home? Why limit your options that way.

I have to say I am pleased he is not going to the wrangler from what you have said about his temperament and the intended use of him there.

[draggar]

Never said I was a saint nor better than anyone, though it seems a few of YOU seem to have that same attitude. Demonizing me for whatever you think I am doing wrong. Your judgmental behavior will some back to you at some point - Karma is a bitch. It seems you all are interested in being part of the problem and throwing blame rather than being part of the solution.
Getting angry at me for taking the dog in and trying to find him a better home is really stupid. As if I am to blame or had some way to prevent or control it.
You may not agree with my placement decisions - it is not your call. I am sure my husband reached out to all of you seeking help, NOT narrow-minded judgment and abuse from those who seem to be so perfect they can throw stones at those of us trying to do the right thing.
He will be placed locally so that I can personally do the home check, help him settle in and help his new family adjust as well.
Also, as I have a lot of friends throughout the community here, if the family decides to "dump" him without telling me, I will be notified immediately and can get him. I don't have the ability to do that if he is far away.
As I originally understood it, this forum was started with the intent to bring vlcak owners throughout the world together to share their love, knowledge, experience, etc., with the breed and to promote the breed responsibly. I didn't realize it was a forum for people to unfairly judge and criticize others to make themselves look/feel better. How is the aggressive behavior helpful at all? Makes you feel good? Such behavior is called "bullying" here and is indicative of mental illness issues. Perhaps take a long, good look in the mirror and try to figure out where the aggression is coming from, and what is the purpose of such behavior. You think it helps me? Or Pollux? Are you so "clean" in your life that you have the right to judge others?
I am really not interested in your answers - I think you need to look deep inside yourself and figure those out on your own. As it is, I am comfortable with finding Pollux a great home and I am over the judgemental crap. Not helpful and not healthy.

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Our initial hope was to place him in a performance/show home which would require he be kept intact. So far, the "Saarloos mix" accusations have not been confirmed, and I would still place him on a co-own contract, intact. Just because a dog is in a home intact does not mean he will be bred.

Taking in the whole thread, I don't think the criticism is so much for placing him intact as it was placing him with THAT particular home, intact. He obviously wasn't meant to be shown if he went with the man in CA, and I have to also disagree with the idea that it would be fine to breed Pollux as part of a working film dog line. The whole point of organizations breeding their own lines of dogs for work (at least, in my opinion) is to get the best quality possible, by having complete control of breeding. If this is the case, and you're breeding dogs for film, why would you sabotage yourself by starting out with stock that is known to be shy? Regardless of whether the shyness was caused by breeding or by Pollux's early start in life, I personally wouldn't want to take that chance if temperament was going to be such a crucial factor in the dogs I hoped to produce. Honestly, if the man backed out of taking Pollux, I wouldn't be surprised if the shyness issues were part of the reason. Like I said, you'd want to give yourself the best start possible, just like starting any breeding program.

I know I already said it, but I really, really wish we were in a position to help you out with Pollux! For our next dog, I really wanted one I could get more involved with in regards to training goals, and working with him would be exactly the sort of thing I'd be looking for. I swear, if I weren't about to drop a baby in the next few weeks, you might have to deal with me bugging you about him more!

Regardless of what happens, good luck finding him a good home. There's a reason the wrangler didn't work out, there's obviously a better home for Pollux out there somewhere.

[yukidomari]

How is being in films 'working' any more then obedience venues are 'working'? Please, it's probably more akin to a sport and so I see no reason why a pet family who happens to like obedience, rally, agility, etc, would be a lesser placement.



There's still no reason to justify creating possible mixes or contributing a dog to a person who doesn't have much CsV experience to breed with. Even if this is for his own use, it doesn't seem justified since there are such a vast array of good dogs to pick from anyway out there. If I didn't know much about the breed, pedigrees, breeding, etc, then I would simply buy another from a breeder who does.

As for the need for testosterone? Vasectomy. It exists for dogs too.

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

First, I did want to point out to Marcy (and thank you for the offer of respite!) that some states (Florida is one of them) considers wolf-dog crosses to be exotic animals and you need a permit. Not every state considers them domestic dogs. The FL law was recently changed and is, unfortunately, very UNCLEAR - stating that if the dog looks like a wolf it is to be treated as such and the same requirements of ownership apply (specific enclosures, etc.).

I thought Florida went by percentages - i.e, if a dog is over 75% wolf then it is treated...I think as "medium level" wildlife (not as dangerous as a gorilla, but more dangerous than a tortoise), and has requirements than correspond. All species can be possessed if they are part of exhibition, with a permit, bonds, etc. That is reasonable, I guess, from a legal standpoint (though it is difficult to prove percentages), and in line with most other states. I think most people who own a wolfdog that is 75%+ (with genuine proof) would agree it takes more specialized care than the average dog. It's really a huge question for our breed here, how they will be treated if they came into a legal situation - even with pedigrees. They are the only breed that AKC (begrudgedly) acknowledges comes from recent wolf crossings. Uncharted territory. While AKC does have some legal influence because of the money it lavishes on politicians as a special interest group, it really has no authority. States could potentially ban our breed, because of it's history...it's why I always encourage prospective owners to know all of the laws that could potentially apply to them.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by wolfin

beter shoot this dog

WTF???

Originally Posted by Tassle

I know you mentioned that you might like to breed from him. Has this guy offered you a pup if he breeds?

Not that I know of but we would not be interested in a puppy. The Luna / Pollux litter was a thought but we are no longer even considering that.

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I thought Florida went by percentages - i.e, if a dog is over 75% wolf then it is treated...I think as "medium level" wildlife (not as dangerous as a gorilla, but more dangerous than a tortoise), and has requirements than correspond. All species can be possessed if they are part of exhibition, with a permit, bonds, etc. That is reasonable, I guess, from a legal standpoint (though it is difficult to prove percentages), and in line with most other states. I think most people who own a wolfdog that is 75%+ (with genuine proof) would agree it takes more specialized care than the average dog. It's really a huge question for our breed here, how they will be treated if they came into a legal situation - even with pedigrees. They are the only breed that AKC (begrudgedly) acknowledges comes from recent wolf crossings. Uncharted territory. While AKC does have some legal influence because of the money it lavishes on politicians as a special interest group, it really has no authority. States could potentially ban our breed, because of it's history...it's why I always encourage prospective owners to know all of the laws that could potentially apply to them.

Nope, if it looks like a wolf then it's a wolf in the eyes of Florida law. All the husky owners should be careful now.

http://myfwc.com/license/wildlife/captive-wildlife/

Bottom of section D:

Note: Hybrids resulting from the cross between wildlife and domestic animal, which are substantially similar in size, characteristics and behavior so as to be indistinguishable from the wild animal shall be regulated as wildlife at the higher and more restricted class of the wild parent.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by draggar

WTF???

yes yes - this all who you planed make we can call this same WTF they DOING

[Tassle]

Hmm....methinks from what little you have said, you are placing Pollux to please you - not him.