Pollux needs a new home (Florida - USA)

draggar · 01-07-2011, 20:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

A wrangler? Do you mean a person who catches stray animals?

*lol* Well, that could be one definition.

A wrangler in enterainment is someone who manages the animals on set. They're also commonly the lead trainer and handler, too (especially for smaller productions). The three terms (wrangler, trainer, handler) are often interchanged in entertainment, too.

Rona · 01-07-2011, 20:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by draggar

A wrangler in enterainment is someone who manages the animals on set. They're also commonly the lead trainer and handler, too (especially for smaller productions). The three terms (wrangler, trainer, handler) are often interchanged in entertainment, too.

OK. I had a stereotyped image...

Tazer · 02-07-2011, 20:08

A dog with his described temperament being happy working in a movie/tv set environment...you've got to be joking. Yes he may look the part, but will he be happy playing it?

Is the new owner prepared to put in the time to work with him to make sure he can handle that environment, or will he be trained in the new home environment, taken to the shooting location/s and just be expected to perform?

What happens if he doesn't make the grade? doesn't respond to the training? freeks out on set? what will this guy do with him if he is deemed to be useless?

What it appears Pollux needs is a home where he will be given time, patience, understanding and love. I maybe and indeed hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like that is what is being offered here.

Taz

Tassle · 03-07-2011, 22:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tazer

A dog with his described temperament being happy working in a movie/tv set environment...you've got to be joking. Yes he may look the part, but will he be happy playing it?

Is the new owner prepared to put in the time to work with him to make sure he can handle that environment, or will he be trained in the new home environment, taken to the shooting location/s and just be expected to perform?

What happens if he doesn't make the grade? doesn't respond to the training? freeks out on set? what will this guy do with him if he is deemed to be useless?

What it appears Pollux needs is a home where he will be given time, patience, understanding and love. I maybe and indeed hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like that is what is being offered here.

Taz

Sounds to me it does not matter if Pollux does not make the grade - as long as he can produce pups who will!

Rona · 03-07-2011, 22:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tassle

Sounds to me it does not matter if Pollux does not make the grade - as long as he can produce pups who will!

If only the wrangler were aware to what extent vlcaks take their characters after their ancestors!

Tassle · 03-07-2011, 22:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rona

If only the wrangler were aware to what extent vlcaks take their characters after their ancestors!

It does not bear thinking about to be honest!

When I took on my boy (who admittedly is very Saarloos like - and all that goes with that!!) Mum was thrilled we would have a dog like this on our books.....until she realised how little he could cope with being treated like a prop. Dogs need a rock solid temperament and the ability to repeat things over and over, not to mention being handed off to strangers and expected to look like they 'belong'......

Sounds great doesn't it.

tupacs2legs · 04-07-2011, 01:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tassle

It does not bear thinking about to be honest!

When I took on my boy (who admittedly is very Saarloos like - and all that goes with that!!) Mum was thrilled we would have a dog like this on our books.....until she realised how little he could cope with being treated like a prop. Dogs need a rock solid temperament and the ability to repeat things over and over, not to mention being handed off to strangers and expected to look like they 'belong'......

Sounds great doesn't it.

Good job his brother is on your books then lol ....have food will follow and repeat lol!

Tazer · 04-07-2011, 00:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tassle

Sounds to me it does not matter if Pollux does not make the grade - as long as he can produce pups who will!

I know, how very sad for him.

At least, if this guy already owns/trains wolfdog/hybrids, he should have some idea of the challenge he maybe about to take on.

Taz

Vaiva · 04-07-2011, 12:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tazer

At least, if this guy already owns/trains wolfdog/hybrids, he should have some idea of the challenge he maybe about to take on.

Taz

Yes, tiger trainers in circus also have knowledge about training them, but do the tigers feel happy about it?

Tazer · 04-07-2011, 19:51

I never mentioned anything about Pollux being happy about it, I already said before he wouldn't be.

Vaiva · 04-07-2011, 20:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tazer

I never mentioned anything about Pollux being happy about it, I already said before he wouldn't be.

Yes, so I agreed

draggar · 05-07-2011, 23:14

Pollux has a way of surprising people and the real Pollux is coming out more and more every day, one stride at a time. For example:

Yesterday was the American Independence Day and a very common way to celebrate it is to set off fireworks. Fireworks are everything most dogs would hate, they're loud, they can be heard from a long distance away, they're a quick and loud POP, a bright light (if close enough), and unpredictable.

I decided to give the dogs their final walks for the evening around 8PM, it was still light out so most people wouldn't have started by then. (It was either that or wait until midnight when the fireworks tone down or 2-3AM when they stop (and I leave for work at 6am).

I walked Pollux first knowing he would be affected by it the most. I was wrong, he wasn't to affected by it at all.

Most of it was medium popping and some flashes that didn't even phase Pollux. If there was a flash he'd look up as if he was thinking "What is that, it looks like a fun toy!". A few M80's were set off near us (1/4 stick of dynamite) which all he did was look up (as if surprised), looked around, and then went on with what he was doing before (sniffing, etc.). I walked Luna next and he didn't waste any time, she did her business and pulled me back into the house.

This is one instance where he did better than she did.

As for where Pollux is going, the person ha acres of open land where Pollux can run around with the other dogs. He also has a lot of experience with wolf hybrids so a vlcak, even one with Pollux's temperament issues, should be a step down from what he's used to (like going from working line malinois to show line GSDs, perhaps, but maybe not as extreme?). He is a trainer and will be able to dedicate the time Pollux needs.

I think there are only two people on this forum who can honestly claim they've seen the real Pollux come out. We think the exposure he'll get in CA will help bring that out even faster.

yukidomari · 06-07-2011, 01:10

I think that the title 'trainer' should be taken with a grain of salt in all situations. After all, being a trainer alone doesn't automatically qualify one for much of anything.

Besides, whom among us who has ever had any dog (or animal..), is also not a 'trainer'?

I don't really care about how much land he has or how much experience he has with wolf mixes, being that neither are prerequisites for happily owning a dog, but I do wonder how many animals he has if he has a staff of 10 to take care of them, and how well a domesticated animal meant for human companionship such as a dog would do there.

I would think that dogs would be happiest in a household that would take them to eat ice cream on their birthdays, go on long walks everyday, train for whatever they were bred to do, play at the parks, and sleep in their owners' beds at night. For Pollux' sake I'll hope that this is where he finds himself, although I'm not certain he will.

PS. I also don't like the whole overnight breeder factor either, and I think it's a terrible start for Vlcaks in the states to have just anyone out to breed dogs who has probably not even met more than 1 representative of the breed.

Rona · 06-07-2011, 08:08

I bothered to read the old threads about Pollux:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14024
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14211

and have one simple question: why haven't you, Draggar and Lunasmom, learnt anything from the lesson?

People who had much more experince with vlcaks were warning you and your friend about the possible consequences of hasty purchase of a pup from the first litter available and from a breeder who wasn't even sure which pup she had forwarded to the USA: Puck or Pollux

. You didn't bother to listen - you answers were arrogant and showed the "I know better" attitude with masses of self-advertising.
I was surprised, that as dog trainers, on Pollux arrival neither you, nor your knowledgeable friend could correctly interpret the pup's obvious behaviour signals described, but I hoped you knew what you were doing. Unfortunately the developments showed you advisors were right: Pollux is still unsettled and the situation repeats:

Again people who have more exeperinece with vlcaks, their raising, training, rehoming, developmental patterns, etc. are kindly advising you not to send him to a place where he'll be exposed to further stresses and to someone who will expect from him things he might not fulfil. These people have no personal interest in where the dog will live, just like they had no personal interest which puppy Sioban would have eventually picked - they're only trying to help.

My question is: why don't you guys listen to them? Why do you again reject their opinions and advice? Why do you again practise wishful thinking?

Shadowlands · 06-07-2011, 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

PS. I also don't like the whole overnight breeder factor either, and I think it's a terrible start for Vlcaks in the states to have just anyone out to breed dogs who has probably not even met more than 1 representative of the breed.

Absolutely! Also, what happened to the decision stated in another thread?

(Posted by Draggar)
I do to, the whole future of "American lined" CSVs are at stake here. Pollux is a very good looking dog and his temperament isn't as much of a factor (being the male) since typically 75% of the temperament comes from the mother (and raising).

If he's a mix we'd need to know ASAP but I think right now my wife has decided to not use him in any breeding for now until more facts come out.

Vaiva · 06-07-2011, 09:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

I would think that dogs would be happiest in a household that would take them to eat ice cream on their birthdays, go on long walks everyday, train for whatever they were bred to do, play at the parks, and sleep in their owners' beds at night. For Pollux' sake I'll hope that this is where he finds himself, although I'm not certain he will.

Totally!!! (I like the ice-cream part most, because Brukne is crazy for them, so I can't resist...

)
Pollux doesn't need acres to run free, he needs home. Usually experienced trainers or breeders say, that no dog needs acres to run free - in such cases dogs become "stupid". Every dog needs a walk with a master, not running free. Draggar, you say you are a dog trainer, so are you the one who doesn't know some simple things about dogs, or are you the one, who doesn't care?

P.S. Last week had a walk with a really experienced Irish setter breeder (if "expeerienced" is not enought, a male from her kennel is twice a World Winner) and once again an experienced person told me, she would rather sell a dog to a small flat, than a house with a yard.

Gypsy Wolf · 06-07-2011, 21:45

OK, OK... since *I* am the one who actually spoke to the Animal Wrangler/Trainer, I feel the need to clarify a few things...
First, I did want to point out to Marcy (and thank you for the offer of respite!) that some states (Florida is one of them) considers wolf-dog crosses to be exotic animals and you need a permit. Not every state considers them domestic dogs. The FL law was recently changed and is, unfortunately, very UNCLEAR - stating that if the dog looks like a wolf it is to be treated as such and the same requirements of ownership apply (specific enclosures, etc.). We have since joined the FL Lupine Assn to try to lobby against this unfair legal definition. Technically, I can "prove" my vlcaks are not wolf-dog crosses (not recently, anyway) but visually, Pollux looks like a wolf. Period.
Speaking with the wrangler, a lot of his work is also international - a LOT easier to work with domestic dog breed laws as opposed to exotic species laws, so I find no fault in his desire to have a vlcak "wolf pack". Better for the actual work, too, as they are certainly more amenable to training than a wolf-dog.
His intent is simply to replace the wolf-dogs that he currently has, as they are about 10 and a half years old, and with a more consistant gene pool, it's a better bet to get the "look" he wants, rather than "experimenting" with another wolf-to-some-dog-breed mix. He is not looking to produce puppies for sale - he is looking for wolf-looking dogs he can use for animal Talent. I have no problem with this.
Personally I feel we have a working breed, and as such, it is more fulfilling to the individual to WORK. Yes, being a pet in our home is nice - he gets cuddled and spoiled and loved. But he also has a lot of energy and we live in a townhouse in an urban area - though I take the dogs to parks, etc., to run off their energy, it would be better, IMHO, for a dog like Pollux to have a LOT of room to just run full-out and play and wrestle with other dogs. I also am THRILLED that someone who has a LOT of experience with actual wolf-dog and wolf behavior is going to work him - I think that is a perfect fit.
Pollux instinctively does not like being in an urban environment. He will often display neurotic behaviors if he is cooped up longer than normal (if it is a day of constant thunderstorms) I think 10 acres to run on and get exhausted would be healthier for him.
Pollux is still here currently - the wrangler has not contacted us regarding getting him shipped - perhaps he has reconsidered and Pollux will end up staying here. Again, I am not in a rush - he is welcome to stay here indefinitely. I just think that his going out and being a working acting animal with someone who intimiately understands his behavior is perfect. As I mentioned before, I think a working dog should WORK. It brings confidence - especially to those who need a little bit more.
This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the facts. His owner found that she didn't want him and was looking to sell him. We took him in so he would be in a home rather than out in a kennel in her yard until a good home could be found. There was no abuse - lots of dogs are kennel dogs - we just felt it would be better for him to be in a home. From the beginning it was intended to be a "foster" situation - I already have a vlcak, not to mention a GSD and 2 Malinois - and having another dog takes time away from them - the dogs *I* chose to be in my life. I don't have unlimited time, money or energy - or space. I need to make sure that I am fair to my dogs - they all have or have had, a job. All my dogs work doing something, and I have goals in regards to working and titling them. A needy dog like Pollux takes a good deal of time and effort to continually work... is that fair to my other dogs? IS it fair to Pollux? Personally, I think it would be better for him to be in a situation where he gets more time being trained and socialized. The wrangler has 2 other trainers working for him - Pollux would have even more attention, not to mention lots of other dogs to interact with, and people who understand him and do not expect him to be a Golden Retriever, like a lot of "pet" people assume he should be. He will be worked around his instinctive shyness, rather than coddled for it.
This placement is NOT a "pet" placement - in fact I am happier about placing him in this sort of scenario as opposed to a "pet" situation - I feel it is the perfect environment for him to mature and blossom. I spoke to the wrangler at length, and I have been involved in placing rescues since I started in dogs back in 1991 - I do not have reservations about Pollux's future if he does end up going there. No, he may not get to share an ice cream cone with his handler, but I think the trade-off will be better for him.

02-07-2011, 20:08	#3
Tazer Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 77	A dog with his described temperament being happy working in a movie/tv set environment...you've got to be joking. Yes he may look the part, but will he be happy playing it? Is the new owner prepared to put in the time to work with him to make sure he can handle that environment, or will he be trained in the new home environment, taken to the shooting location/s and just be expected to perform? What happens if he doesn't make the grade? doesn't respond to the training? freeks out on set? what will this guy do with him if he is deemed to be useless? What it appears Pollux needs is a home where he will be given time, patience, understanding and love. I maybe and indeed hope I'm wrong, but it doesn't sound like that is what is being offered here. Taz __________________ Never argue with idiots. they drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

04-07-2011, 19:51	#10
Tazer Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 77	I never mentioned anything about Pollux being happy about it, I already said before he wouldn't be. __________________ Never argue with idiots. they drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

05-07-2011, 23:14	#12
draggar Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: New Hampshire Posts: 370	Pollux has a way of surprising people and the real Pollux is coming out more and more every day, one stride at a time. For example: Yesterday was the American Independence Day and a very common way to celebrate it is to set off fireworks. Fireworks are everything most dogs would hate, they're loud, they can be heard from a long distance away, they're a quick and loud POP, a bright light (if close enough), and unpredictable. I decided to give the dogs their final walks for the evening around 8PM, it was still light out so most people wouldn't have started by then. (It was either that or wait until midnight when the fireworks tone down or 2-3AM when they stop (and I leave for work at 6am). I walked Pollux first knowing he would be affected by it the most. I was wrong, he wasn't to affected by it at all. Most of it was medium popping and some flashes that didn't even phase Pollux. If there was a flash he'd look up as if he was thinking "What is that, it looks like a fun toy!". A few M80's were set off near us (1/4 stick of dynamite) which all he did was look up (as if surprised), looked around, and then went on with what he was doing before (sniffing, etc.). I walked Luna next and he didn't waste any time, she did her business and pulled me back into the house. This is one instance where he did better than she did. As for where Pollux is going, the person ha acres of open land where Pollux can run around with the other dogs. He also has a lot of experience with wolf hybrids so a vlcak, even one with Pollux's temperament issues, should be a step down from what he's used to (like going from working line malinois to show line GSDs, perhaps, but maybe not as extreme?). He is a trainer and will be able to dedicate the time Pollux needs. I think there are only two people on this forum who can honestly claim they've seen the real Pollux come out. We think the exposure he'll get in CA will help bring that out even faster. __________________ Fred Lanting's Official Site Dog Actors

06-07-2011, 01:10	#13
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	I think that the title 'trainer' should be taken with a grain of salt in all situations. After all, being a trainer alone doesn't automatically qualify one for much of anything. Besides, whom among us who has ever had any dog (or animal..), is also not a 'trainer'? I don't really care about how much land he has or how much experience he has with wolf mixes, being that neither are prerequisites for happily owning a dog, but I do wonder how many animals he has if he has a staff of 10 to take care of them, and how well a domesticated animal meant for human companionship such as a dog would do there. I would think that dogs would be happiest in a household that would take them to eat ice cream on their birthdays, go on long walks everyday, train for whatever they were bred to do, play at the parks, and sleep in their owners' beds at night. For Pollux' sake I'll hope that this is where he finds himself, although I'm not certain he will. PS. I also don't like the whole overnight breeder factor either, and I think it's a terrible start for Vlcaks in the states to have just anyone out to breed dogs who has probably not even met more than 1 representative of the breed. Last edited by yukidomari; 06-07-2011 at 01:16.

06-07-2011, 08:08	#14
Rona Distinguished Member Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Kraków Posts: 3,509	I bothered to read the old threads about Pollux: http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14024 http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14211 and have one simple question: why haven't you, Draggar and Lunasmom, learnt anything from the lesson? People who had much more experince with vlcaks were warning you and your friend about the possible consequences of hasty purchase of a pup from the first litter available and from a breeder who wasn't even sure which pup she had forwarded to the USA: Puck or Pollux . You didn't bother to listen - you answers were arrogant and showed the "I know better" attitude with masses of self-advertising. I was surprised, that as dog trainers, on Pollux arrival neither you, nor your knowledgeable friend could correctly interpret the pup's obvious behaviour signals described, but I hoped you knew what you were doing. Unfortunately the developments showed you advisors were right: Pollux is still unsettled and the situation repeats: Again people who have more exeperinece with vlcaks, their raising, training, rehoming, developmental patterns, etc. are kindly advising you not to send him to a place where he'll be exposed to further stresses and to someone who will expect from him things he might not fulfil. These people have no personal interest in where the dog will live, just like they had no personal interest which puppy Sioban would have eventually picked - they're only trying to help. My question is: why don't you guys listen to them? Why do you again reject their opinions and advice? Why do you again practise wishful thinking? __________________ Last edited by Rona; 06-07-2011 at 12:52. Reason: spel.er.

06-07-2011, 21:45	#17
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	OK, OK... since I am the one who actually spoke to the Animal Wrangler/Trainer, I feel the need to clarify a few things... First, I did want to point out to Marcy (and thank you for the offer of respite!) that some states (Florida is one of them) considers wolf-dog crosses to be exotic animals and you need a permit. Not every state considers them domestic dogs. The FL law was recently changed and is, unfortunately, very UNCLEAR - stating that if the dog looks like a wolf it is to be treated as such and the same requirements of ownership apply (specific enclosures, etc.). We have since joined the FL Lupine Assn to try to lobby against this unfair legal definition. Technically, I can "prove" my vlcaks are not wolf-dog crosses (not recently, anyway) but visually, Pollux looks like a wolf. Period. Speaking with the wrangler, a lot of his work is also international - a LOT easier to work with domestic dog breed laws as opposed to exotic species laws, so I find no fault in his desire to have a vlcak "wolf pack". Better for the actual work, too, as they are certainly more amenable to training than a wolf-dog. His intent is simply to replace the wolf-dogs that he currently has, as they are about 10 and a half years old, and with a more consistant gene pool, it's a better bet to get the "look" he wants, rather than "experimenting" with another wolf-to-some-dog-breed mix. He is not looking to produce puppies for sale - he is looking for wolf-looking dogs he can use for animal Talent. I have no problem with this. Personally I feel we have a working breed, and as such, it is more fulfilling to the individual to WORK. Yes, being a pet in our home is nice - he gets cuddled and spoiled and loved. But he also has a lot of energy and we live in a townhouse in an urban area - though I take the dogs to parks, etc., to run off their energy, it would be better, IMHO, for a dog like Pollux to have a LOT of room to just run full-out and play and wrestle with other dogs. I also am THRILLED that someone who has a LOT of experience with actual wolf-dog and wolf behavior is going to work him - I think that is a perfect fit. Pollux instinctively does not like being in an urban environment. He will often display neurotic behaviors if he is cooped up longer than normal (if it is a day of constant thunderstorms) I think 10 acres to run on and get exhausted would be healthier for him. Pollux is still here currently - the wrangler has not contacted us regarding getting him shipped - perhaps he has reconsidered and Pollux will end up staying here. Again, I am not in a rush - he is welcome to stay here indefinitely. I just think that his going out and being a working acting animal with someone who intimiately understands his behavior is perfect. As I mentioned before, I think a working dog should WORK. It brings confidence - especially to those who need a little bit more. This thread seems to have gone off on a tangent that has nothing to do with the facts. His owner found that she didn't want him and was looking to sell him. We took him in so he would be in a home rather than out in a kennel in her yard until a good home could be found. There was no abuse - lots of dogs are kennel dogs - we just felt it would be better for him to be in a home. From the beginning it was intended to be a "foster" situation - I already have a vlcak, not to mention a GSD and 2 Malinois - and having another dog takes time away from them - the dogs I chose to be in my life. I don't have unlimited time, money or energy - or space. I need to make sure that I am fair to my dogs - they all have or have had, a job. All my dogs work doing something, and I have goals in regards to working and titling them. A needy dog like Pollux takes a good deal of time and effort to continually work... is that fair to my other dogs? IS it fair to Pollux? Personally, I think it would be better for him to be in a situation where he gets more time being trained and socialized. The wrangler has 2 other trainers working for him - Pollux would have even more attention, not to mention lots of other dogs to interact with, and people who understand him and do not expect him to be a Golden Retriever, like a lot of "pet" people assume he should be. He will be worked around his instinctive shyness, rather than coddled for it. This placement is NOT a "pet" placement - in fact I am happier about placing him in this sort of scenario as opposed to a "pet" situation - I feel it is the perfect environment for him to mature and blossom. I spoke to the wrangler at length, and I have been involved in placing rescues since I started in dogs back in 1991 - I do not have reservations about Pollux's future if he does end up going there. No, he may not get to share an ice cream cone with his handler, but I think the trade-off will be better for him.

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode