Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

First I must note that I am well aware of the origins / histroy of this breed and it's original purpose. But I know wolves and I know dogs, and I know WORKING dogs especially well. And I think nowadays it is (and should be allready) generally admitted that if you want to have better working dogs, you don't mix wolf into the breeding stock. And IF you do, you need very carefull selection and many generations away from the wolf, to get to a point where you have somewhat homogeneous population of potential dogs (and you most certainly will not have high interest in other things such as keeping the wolfy looks). It (crossing wolf into dogs) is not worth the efforts today, if you only have the working abilities in your mind. The dog population in the world is big enough to scoop from, if there is a need to cross breed for better health or wider gene pool for example. For better working abilities you mix ideal DOGS with suitable traits, and you reach your goal alot faster and easier, and you may even truly create better working dogs compared to what there allready is.

Sorry, must be language barrier Yes, we are all here totally aware, that there are much better breeds for IPO, Mondioring or whatever than a wolfdog. What I ment was - wolfdogs are not decorative breeds, it will not be just a nice "wolf" making your garden look better. It has special needs in training, socialisation, everyday work. Yes, they can be agressive, they can be shy, they also know how to bite. We have to remember, that they were really bred (roughly) to attack people, not to hunt, not to bark, not to entertain, not to pull sleds. This requires special knowledge, work and so on, so it is not really a dog who will be "wolfish" in a way many people dream they would be...

Originally Posted by Jennin Lauma

So, may I ask a few questions:
For who are these dogs truly bred for these days (now that they are nolonger a military experiment)?
Do we need just another German / Belgian Shepherd? -Is it even a realistic goal?
What are the characteristics the average buyers are hoping for their CsV?
If we think about the best intrests of these dogs, wouldn't it be to breed dogs that fill these hopes; that are most suitable for the main target group ~ (= an avarage buyer)?

Throw stones to me, but to be sure I am allways a little bit surprised in so many people with various breeds, teaching their dogs really a police/military work. I am a journalist and I live in a crowded area in a city, why the hell would I need a dog who barks and attacks? I need a universal dog, having good reaction in various unexpected situations, totally brave, nice with children and people, but big and strong enought to make me feel safe late at night, also a dog, who really feels the people, their moods and intends - what a wolfdogs is a master of. Predictable, feeling me well (I mean the dog has also to be able to predict his owner), loyal, no need to dress, wash, comb, no smell - perfect for a small apartment. Doesn't care about the weather - so important when you have summers at +30 degreres, long rainy autumns and winters at -20...

In fact I myself am still in love with the primitives - shikokus, malamuts, huskies, but I chose wolfdog just because they are working breed, in this case more oriented to people, more obedient, easier to train.

The breeding goal should be to keep the wolfdogs the way they are - not turning into GSD, neither shy and scared. As healthy as possible. But this is just my personal amateur position.

[*Satu]

Some people here who writes have a back yard full of hybrids and their dogs in the background are not fully known. On the Internet is easy to shout and make very knowledgeable.

Who will buy a dog breeder who speaks next, "" these races are not diseases, "" they are closer to wolves than other breeds, "the educator says that the wolf a dog can be trained," etc.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by *Satu

Some people here who writes have a back yard full of hybrids and their dogs in the background are not fully known.

But what does this matter if some people own "hybrids" / AWD? If people have "mixes/mutts", so let them! And what does it matter how well they know the background / pedigree of their "mutts"? -Only parents? To 2nd gen? To 3rd? To 6th? What difference does it make for a pet "mutt"?

What is critizised here is falcifying pedigrees of FCI registered breeds. Not every AWD owner automatically make their secret coctails and falcify pedigrees, so I don't see what does this have to do with the subject discussed here.

Originally Posted by *Satu

On the Internet is easy to shout and make very knowledgeable.

Shouting? Hmmm.. I didn't notice anyone -SHOUTING!!!!- here.
Isn't the whole idea of discussion forums to discuss; i.e. to share opinions, information, ideas, etc...? I thought so and actually I think that considering how very flammable subject this is we are discussing here, the conversation has been relatively calm. Everyone here are sharing their opinions and everyone has the right to do so, whether they are breeders, owners or just bystanders/fanciers of the breed who feel they have some thoughts to share.

[*Satu]

And i´m talking about you?

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by *Satu

And i´m talking about you?

?
Whoever you talk about, I'm interested to know:

But what does this matter if some people own "hybrids" / AWD? If people have "mixes/mutts", so let them! And what does it matter how well they know the background / pedigree of their "mutts"? -Only parents? To 2nd gen? To 3rd? To 6th? What difference does it make for a pet "mutt"?

So it would be nice if you could clarify your point in what you wrote before.
I didn't quite catch it.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

I chose wolfdog just because they are working breed, in this case more oriented to people, more obedient, easier to train.

The breeding goal should be to keep the wolfdogs the way they are - not turning into GSD, neither shy and scared. As healthy as possible.

I'd just add, that expressions "working" and "training" are very misleading. To some people they mean just training the dogs for official exams (IPO), to others - the dog being able to cooperate with the human in all sorts of activities, sometimes quite unconventional, like historical reconstructions, genuine man trailing, assisting in expeditions, guarding a site, etc. etc.

If we take the 1st meaning - I agree there are more suitable breeds, if the other - vlcaks due to their empathy, may be competitive to other breeds. Given the chance to learn how, vlcaks work by cooperating with humans, not necessarily by blindly obeying them.

[GalomyOak]

I guess I am now "officially" one of those weird competitors who likes to try to "work" with my dog. Obedience and tracking anyways, and now we also are training in some other scent detection work - as a diabetic alert dog. I would hardly consider myself an advanced trainer. A beginner, really!

1. My male Bongo is a certified therapy dog. (Not to be confused with a service dog). His "work" is to visit and be obedient for emotionally disturbed adolescents. Very obedient. He is not social like a Golden Retriever - but he warms up quickly to trust new people, and I can trust him in all situations - parades, running loose with other dogs and animals - more than I could trust many other dogs. We have a good relationship...but mostly he is obedient.

2. Last week, I attended my first AKC obedience competition with my female, Anthea. The competition was indoors, in a huge, loud, metal convention center - thousands of people, hundreds of dogs, bright lights, vendors, ladders. I don't generally like much attention to myself, so I was quite nervous with "stage fright"...but Anthea stayed, for the most part, very focused. She has some female dominance aggression, but she always leaves this behind when she knows we have a task. We took first place last weekend, by a minimum of 17 points - over golden retrievers, labs, terriers...

3. I have a female in Florida that I bred, who at 1.5 years, is being trained as a mobility assistance dog. I know she has had unique challenges with her...but as I understand, she is still doing well.

4. I track and trail (sport) with my dogs. I have had the opportunity now to train with many different breeds...I would trade none for my wolfdogs. Their drive, their endurance, their focus (and ability to refocus) is beautiful to watch. When they are "deep" with their nose in tracking, and they come to a tricky place - they freeze, sometimes with one leg in the air even, and don't move a leg until they know just where they are going. But the trick is to always challenge them - too many short/straight tracks - and they look back like "really? - why? Don't YOU see the sock down there? but c'mon, we will go...in a leisurely fashion." I have trained some protection work with my dogs, but got kind of the same reaction after a bite or two. They got bored with the "game".The real protective instinct has shown itself at more important times, such as strange drunk men approaching me at dark on the beach.

I don't think all CSVs are all cut out for all "work", or even some "work". But to cut them out of being "top dogs" completely, and say it can never be...I don't know if it's right either (though I surely don't want a GSD personality either). I think the biggest thing to own one is to have and open, flexible, FORGIVING!!!! mind - and be willing to work towards greatness at what their strengths are. Mixed breeding, especially with a AWD or Saarloos, or any other mix....surely only adds more variability - and thus unpredictability for untold generations.

[Jennin Lauma]

GalomyOak, concratulations for the results you have gained with your CsV. I think tracking is a great job for wolfdogs.

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I don't think all CSVs are all cut out for all "work", or even some "work". But to cut them out of being "top dogs" completely, and say it can never be...I don't know if it's right either (though I surely don't want a GSD personality either). I think the biggest thing to own one is to have and open, flexible, FORGIVING!!!! mind - and be willing to work towards greatness at what their strengths are. Mixed breeding, especially with a AWD or Saarloos, or any other mix....surely only adds more variability - and thus unpredictability for untold generations.

Never say never. There will always be exceptional individuals in both dogs and their trainers.
But let's talk about the average CsV and the average buyers/owners.
-Do we need another GSD? Do we WANT another GSD? What kind of people buy CsV and for what purpose? What are their expectations for the breed? To what kind of activities they are planning to head with their CsV?
What are concidered to be the biggest issues/problems in the CsV character, and how to overcome them?

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

I'd just add, that expressions "working" and "training" are very misleading. To some people they mean just training the dogs for official exams (IPO), to others - the dog being able to cooperate with the human in all sorts of activities, sometimes quite unconventional, like historical reconstructions, genuine man trailing, assisting in expeditions, guarding a site, etc. etc.

If we take the 1st meaning - I agree there are more suitable breeds, if the other - vlcaks due to their empathy, may be competitive to other breeds. Given the chance to learn how, vlcaks work by cooperating with humans, not necessarily by blindly obeying them.

I can sign after every word of yours

Marcy - if you love exams and so on with your dogs - this is great!!! We all can find our own ways to enjoy a CSV. If training is your way so you are having your best from your relationship with a wolfdog

[GalomyOak]

I don't really consider myself - or my dogs, other than they are MY dogs, my babies - exceptional. We are average. I had no dogs growing up, and only 2 - a mixed breed and a GSD - to base my "dog experience" on. I knew there would be a huge learning curve when I bought my first CSV (something I emphasize to potential new owners). I don't train every minute of every day. I am a teacher, and live on a small farm - we train when we have time. I am not so rich to afford top trainers or to to dog shows and trials every weekend. We go through local dog classes, and the rest is...a hobby, for free time.

Moreoever, I tried to do a selection from different lines since I knew each dog might potentially one day have something to contribute to breeding here. All of my dogs are very different from one another. I appreciate that, and try to recognize their weaknesses, and also their strengths. With the breedings I do, I will always look for ways to improve the breed - temperament, health, structure, and aptitudes for working. In new owners for my puppies, I don't look for "working" homes, nor do I place in homes with "mystical wolf" people. I do look for homes that are active, have dog experience, enough time, space, good family and work setup - and most importantly - someone with that open and flexible mind. It's hard work, finding good owners, just for one litter every 1-2 years, in the whole USA. It's becoming a little easier now, since people are starting to become familier with the breed - but maybe harder too, since it requires more "searching" to see what the intentions of people really are. I imagine it becomes more difficult to find good homes for 4-5+ litters a year. Maybe it's not the breed itself, but how the breed is "grown" instead, that creates issues? No, my dogs are NOT GSDs, I work with those too (DDR lines, with common GSD ancestors to my CSVs)...THEY make me crazy. Hmmm..I think we have moved to a different topic.

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Moreoever, I tried to do a selection from different lines since I knew each dog might potentially one day have something to contribute to breeding here. All of my dogs are very different from one another. I appreciate that, and try to recognize their weaknesses, and also their strengths. With the breedings I do, I will always look for ways to improve the breed - temperament, health, structure, and aptitudes for working. In new owners for my puppies, I don't look for "working" homes, nor do I place in homes with "mystical wolf" people. I do look for homes that are active, have dog experience, enough time, space, good family and work setup - and most importantly - someone with that open and flexible mind. It's hard work, finding good owners, just for one litter every 1-2 years, in the whole USA. It's becoming a little easier now, since people are starting to become familier with the breed - but maybe harder too, since it requires more "searching" to see what the intentions of people really are.

good thoughts

[Czertice]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

I don't really consider myself - or my dogs, other than they are MY dogs, my babies - exceptional. We are average. I had no dogs growing up, and only 2 - a mixed breed and a GSD - to base my "dog experience" on. I knew there would be a huge learning curve when I bought my first CSV (something I emphasize to potential new owners). I don't train every minute of every day. I am a teacher, and live on a small farm - we train when we have time. I am not so rich to afford top trainers or to to dog shows and trials every weekend. We go through local dog classes, and the rest is...a hobby, for free time.

Moreoever, I tried to do a selection from different lines since I knew each dog might potentially one day have something to contribute to breeding here. All of my dogs are very different from one another. I appreciate that, and try to recognize their weaknesses, and also their strengths. With the breedings I do, I will always look for ways to improve the breed - temperament, health, structure, and aptitudes for working. In new owners for my puppies, I don't look for "working" homes, nor do I place in homes with "mystical wolf" people. I do look for homes that are active, have dog experience, enough time, space, good family and work setup - and most importantly - someone with that open and flexible mind. It's hard work, finding good owners, just for one litter every 1-2 years, in the whole USA. It's becoming a little easier now, since people are starting to become familier with the breed - but maybe harder too, since it requires more "searching" to see what the intentions of people really are. I imagine it becomes more difficult to find good homes for 4-5+ litters a year. Maybe it's not the breed itself, but how the breed is "grown" instead, that creates issues? No, my dogs are NOT GSDs, I work with those too (DDR lines, with common GSD ancestors to my CSVs)...THEY make me crazy. Hmmm..I think we have moved to a different topic.

On the site where I publish my CSV photos, I get lots of people asking about how it is with CSVs in the US, interested in acquiring one. So I usually point them to you and your website, apart from wolfdog.org. I suspect some of these people fall into the 'mystical wolf' cathegory, but not all of them. I hope you don't mind;]

[whitefang]

Just one question, maybe I haven't read it here: Do the red CSV-puppies in France get FCI-pedigrees? Therefor they are not according to the standard...

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by whitefang

Just one question, maybe I haven't read it here: Do the red CSV-puppies in France get FCI-pedigrees? Therefor they are not according to the standard...

The breed standard is something unknown by the huge majority of the CzW breeders, then how will an group-judge or an all-rounder judge be able to know how should look like a CzW when nor even the breeders knows it?
We can often meet atypical dogs winning titles at dogshows, I will not get amazed if a red dog win as well.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by whitefang

Just one question, maybe I haven't read it here: Do the red CSV-puppies in France get FCI-pedigrees? Therefor they are not according to the standard...

Cf. Réponse détaillée faite à Sashia ...

[whitefang]

@Vaiva and Jennin Lauma: Just agree with your statements about breeding! Just brought on the point of view!