MISSING credibility of the French pedigrees

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

If you think Mutaras, it was "work " of a few people, behind back of all club. Reaction of czech club was quick. These people was kicked out from club goverment. Thanks to members of club. Now is not possible to breed these dogs and their offsprings in countries of origin. It is enough what we need. Breeding in other countries is thing of other clubs in the World. If they do nothing against mixes (not only mutaras)...............:confus ed2

OK. So I ask again: what do you propose realistically to do, if writing is bad?

Without reliable DNA test results or certified declarations of the fraud witnesses, nothing can be done. All (except the owners ) may see the dogs look strange and do not resemble their parents, but since there are no proofs, the French Kennel Club or FCI can do nothing. BTW I don't think there is a rubric on the bonitation card called "resemblence to parents"

Since the dogs that should be tested are in hands of people who do not want or intend to conduct the tests, only hypocritically shout "we want proofs" nothing can be done except writing and warning potential buyers agaist purchasing dogs from certain kennels that have something to hide.
As you could see such economic pressure evoked fits of anger - so it seems more effective than other measures taken .

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Rona

OK. So I ask again: what do you propose realistically to do, if writing is bad?

Without reliable DNA test results or certified declarations of the fraud witnesses, nothing can be done. All (except the owners ) may see the dogs look strange and do not resemble their parents, but since there are no proofs, the French Kennel Club or FCI can do nothing. BTW I don't think there is a rubric on the bonitation card called "resemblence to parents"

Since the dogs that should be tested are in hands of people who do not want or intend to conduct the tests, only hypocritically shout "we want proofs" nothing can be done except writing and warning potential buyers agaist purchasing dogs from certain kennels that have something to hide.
As you could see such economic pressure evoked fits of anger - so it seems more effective than other measures taken .

rona, she not antswer. she say all - this not cz club problem and this not interesing for she.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by wolfin

rona, she not antswer. she say all - this not cz club problem and this not interesing for she.

Calm down Daiva. Hanka's arguments are usually rational and useful and she often has an interesting perspective to problems. I just want to understand her way of reasoning.

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Rona

Calm donw Daiva. Hanka's arguments are usually rational and useful and she often has an interesting perspective to problems. I just want to understand her way reasoning.

I think you see shes way

[Hanka]

It is easy Rona. Poland club can officialy ask FCI or garant of breed about next steps. (If you need info about it). If poland club does not exist- it is problem. So you can ask like privat person, but I am not sure if you will have answer.
But I will always write the same. Reason is in hands of clubs in every country, if they really want breed wolfdogs and care about breed. If goverment of club does not work, members of club can kick up bad leaders out and make new club goverment, which will like our breed. It is easy. Who can change situations in other countries if not club?

Here on WD you can see photos of possible mixes again and again and write about it. But it is not reason.

[Hanka]

Daiva please,
1- dont write me dear. I am not your dear and you know it.
2- I never wrote problem does not exist
3- I never wrote in Czech is everythin white. We have our own problems. But it is not your problem (But you don´t know czech breeding, so you can´t write "we know very long".)
4-Where I wrote I don´t see problem? (I don´t wait answer)
5- I am not professional breeder, I am amateur breeder. And please, don´t comment my breeding.It is not your problem. I don´t comment your too. So respect it please.
All disscuss on WD forum is sometimes like witch hunting club. I will never in this club. I only write my view to solving. And I will repeat it always. If you have other reason (in moment when you have in hand NOTHING) , you can write it here too. and I promise, I will not attack you and your "team".
I remember time, when WD was nice place for writting about wolfdogs.
So I end writting with you again, because it is about nothing. my first thread was for clubs in other countries, where is problem with possible mix dogs.
If you have question to czech or slovak club, write official question. From czech club you will not be without answer.
If you read here, you could read answer from Sonja. Do you mean, everything will be finished in two days? (I dont wait answer from you)

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Daiva please,
1- dont write me dear. I am not your dear and you know it.
2- I never wrote problem does not exist
3- I never wrote in Czech is everythin white. We have our own problems. But it is not your problem (But you don´t know czech breeding, so you can´t write "we know very long".)
4-Where I wrote I don´t see problem? (I don´t wait answer)
5- I am not professional breeder, I am amateur breeder. And please, don´t comment my breeding.It is not your problem. I don´t comment your too. So respect it please.
All disscuss on WD forum is sometimes like witch hunting club. I will never in this club. I only write my view to solving. And I will repeat it always. If you have other reason (in moment when you have in hand NOTHING) , you can write it here too. and I promise, I will not attack you and your "team".
I remember time, when WD was nice place for writting about wolfdogs.
So I end writting with you again, because it is about nothing. my first thread was for clubs in other countries, where is problem with possible mix dogs.
If you have question to czech or slovak club, write official question. From czech club you will not be without answer.
If you read here, you could read answer from Sonja. Do you mean, everything will be finished in two days? (I dont wait answer from you)

thanks, you speak very good- i respect this. who know maybe in future we be good friends and breed thogether.

yes without DNA test we not can make next step, but maybe you know in who methods we can begin make this- say who think? maybe CZU laboratory can make this test?

noo this are minimum a few years but are in die point. question why.

realy I think for all people interesing info from your club - can put this? or this info are only for club members why pay a taxes?

[wolfin]

Rona is right - I am lithuanian- north italian temperament. Hanka forgive me please

but now I sit in work and think - see this modules
have situation:
one family X buy a dog from this suspicious dogs breeding and bring this to CZ, to LT or PL or others land. We know this not can be pure CSV when are from this dogs. BUT this have FCI pedigree who say " this animal are pure CSV with a pedigree" family go to show, make HD and .. planed breeding. And now who we have- mixing dogs who get to breed in ours country ( LT CZ -PL or others) he have all documents who say" this are pure animal"
who doing in this case?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

But I will always write the same. Reason is in hands of clubs in every country, if they really want breed wolfdogs and care about breed. If goverment of club does not work, members of club can kick up bad leaders out and make new club goverment, which will like our breed. It is easy. Who can change situations in other countries if not club?

Yes, agree... provided the club members and club authorities are not involved in the fraud. I hope there are enough honest members in the French Club, who are able to think in terms of the breed interest rather than nepotism, i.e. friendship with unethical beeders. Otherwise the economic pressure remains the only option.

[Hanka]

Rona, I know a few (in my eyes) good french breeders. So I belive in changes.
Daiva- I have not problem use some your dogs for breeding, if they will have "interest" blood for me. Maybe we have the same idea- to breed wolfdogs "well".
About Prag institut- you must ask Daniela. Not me.
Czech club can cooperate with all clubs from other countries, it is not problem to inform them. On our website you can see contacts, your club can write. Where is problem?
Of course. Some "more detail" info are possible for members of club. It is normal, it is "servis" of club for members.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

Rona, I know a few (in my eyes) good french breeders. So I belive in changes.

OK, so I join you in this belief.

French breeders, please don't disppoint us, we trust you

[Hanka]

I answer you my personal reason. When this dog will be on bonitation, he will have bonitation code. Maybe good. But me (my person) will be first who will want to see his DNA profil. Maybe, other persons (bonitation comission) will want to see the same. And this dog will have breeding licention after giving of DNA to club. His bonitation cart can be in hand of club and wait result of test.
This case was not in past. So- in this moment- I don´t know what type of DNA test we can use. I am not specialist for it. (like for example SAV mixes have gen for red colour).
but belive me, this dog will not be here breeding dog.
But I write my personal meaning. In this moment I don´t write by mouth of my club.
But for future, we can manage possibilities for this case.
But I belive, here are not people who will buy puppy from this or similar breeding.
it is good question, what you can write to my club- if you want. and you will have official answer.

[GalomyOak]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I answer you my personal reason. When this dog will be on bonitation, he will have bonitation code. Maybe good. But me (my person) will be first who will want to see his DNA profil. Maybe, other persons (bonitation comission) will want to see the same. And this dog will have breeding licention after giving of DNA to club. His bonitation cart can be in hand of club and wait result of test.
This case was not in past. So- in this moment- I don´t know what type of DNA test we can use. I am not specialist for it. (like for example SAV mixes have gen for red colour).

I don't know if it is any help, but here is the scheme and program for AKC DNA testing (using a saliva swab, which doesn't need any special preservation to send in mail).
http://www.akc.org/dna/


Tests can be done in several ways:

1. Voluntary owner submission (mandatory if the dog is imported from another country, AI, multiple sires, frequently used sires, etc.)
http://www.akc.org/dna/certify.cfm

2. Compliance audit program (done with/at cost of AKC). These are random kennel checks, which match DNA against pedigrees. There is a system of penalties for kennels that fail compliance, including fines and suspension:
http://www.akc.org/dna/compliance_audit.cfm

3. There is also a system for complaints of individuals or clubs. If someone makes a complaint, they must place a US$500 deposit (a big fee, but not impossible - about 1-2 weeks salary). If the suspicions are true, they get their money back, and the breeder must pay all costs for DNA tests, fines, etc. If they are false, the person making a complaint does not get their money back (to prevent witch hunts).
http://www.akc.org/dna/complaint_policy.cfm

These tests cost $35 per individual dog. Submissions can be made from overseas. These tests do not show purebred/not purebred or any health info - they only make traceable sequences which can be matched to ancestors, relatives and offspring. The AKC will work with clubs to do reduced fee testing for breed shows - $30 per individual dog, I think. Many times, clubs will also offer to pick up part of the bill, to make the cost only $20 for the owner. All tests are submitted to a large, permanent database. If it would be any help, for any breed club, I am happy to see how the AKC can help our breed in Europe - simply send me a PM. But hopefully the FCI or Laboklin offers a similar program?

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by Hanka

I answer you my personal reason. When this dog will be on bonitation, he will have bonitation code. Maybe good. But me (my person) will be first who will want to see his DNA profil. Maybe, other persons (bonitation comission) will want to see the same. And this dog will have breeding licention after giving of DNA to club. His bonitation cart can be in hand of club and wait result of test.
This case was not in past. So- in this moment- I don´t know what type of DNA test we can use. I am not specialist for it. (like for example SAV mixes have gen for red colour).
but belive me, this dog will not be here breeding dog.
But I write my personal meaning. In this moment I don´t write by mouth of my club.
But for future, we can manage possibilities for this case.
But I belive, here are not people who will buy puppy from this or similar breeding.
it is good question, what you can write to my club- if you want. and you will have official answer.

yes exactly. but for this mas be and special regulamin, if owner example say- i not want make DNA, you are jelous and stupid for my super nice dog.
and next- ir this are F1 generation animal we can easer see are his pure or not ( when have a falsh pedigree) can check parents in paper and this anmial - are ok or not DNA. but if this are F2-F3 ( this are too now) his DNA from parents say - yes this "are mama and papa", but not say - yes "his grandpa are falsh". I think Daniela has writen very good dyplom work about this- CSV breeds genome - in who we have a first material for purity test ( when CSV are "purest" breed like a Sarlos in genome.
GalomyOak, yes if we begin make this we have moore and moore info about ours breeds DNA and easer make a markers from line and family.