Saarloos mixes by "Crying Wolf" kennel (CSV red colored)

[elf]

The wolves pictures are interesting but as said this is very different, those wolves are not bb, whereas the red puppies (not a single but 3) the breeder had are bb (more pictures at the bottom MLS) , CSV is told to be BB so this gives that Thalia and Sibir are mixes.

[saschia]

OK, I am reading now the original papewr on the TYRP1 mutations causing bb phenotype, so more to come, but from what I understood untill now, they are loss-of-function kind of mutations, which actually can occur de novo, and with Fallko Kollarov dvor being common ancestor of both Thalia and Sibir, if he gained a new loss-of-function mutation of TYRP1, then it could show exactly like it happened here. Which doesn't mean it cannot be due to inmixing of Saarloos, but, if we are lucky, it can be looked into, by finding out what allele is present in the red pups, and compare it to allelle present in forrest/brown Saarloos wolfdogs.

Anyway, off to look at the paper (have access here at work).

[martiou07]

Hello, I am sorry to think this, all this extremely interesting, but you is tried to find an explanation scientific whereas the answer is very simple, like says it Indiananous, do not take to us for idiots, there was a contribution of Saarloos, quite simply, maintaining the only question is, which is amused to rot our so beautiful race in this way!!!
tomorrow I produce a CSW harlequin, you will find me an explanation??? let us be serious!!!!

[saschia]

martiou, I am not taking this lightly or taking you for idiots. But, while Thalia and Sibir are DNA-proved to be the parents of the red pups, than it follows that their parents are in question, and that is already an acusation of an individual breeder. The question is how to prove or disprove it, and that is hard... As I suggested, DNA typing of siblings and half-siblings, as well as Galiba, might show the level of relatedness and answer some questions. Meanwhile, looking into the allelle causing the color might or might not, clear it up a bit.

If it would be shown that both Sibir and Thalia are mixes and not pure CSW, than it of course would be a big scandal. Either way, red color is not accepted by CSW standard, so even if the two parents were proved to be pure CSW, their carrying the trait for red should be noted and kept in ming during breeding, and the red pups should not be used for breeding at all...

[Silvester]

As I already said in my posting before this morning , I think it is VERY likely that martiou07 is right with his posting !

Because "...it would be likely to have happened more often in CsV allready, if they would have had the brown (bb) gene in them from the beginning." ( What Jennin Lauma told before.)

(Ok, it´s not 100 % sure that crossing with Saarloos is the reason - but close to this ! And much more likely than a spontanous mutation...or caused by inbreeding, like supposed by Saschia.)

[saschia]

Silvester, I would agree with you, if I was not involved in a study of a series of mutations that cause sudden cardiac death and that do occur spontaneously sometimes. Not often, but loss-of-function mutations do occur and if we cannot prove otherwise, we should keep it in mind. But I agree that looking into the crossing with SW is important, but very very hard to prove (and saying dog is not typical is not proof enough I am afraid, not at courts of law).

[Jet]

1) This Puppy is red, (and beautifull).
2) DNA proof show us that he is coming by Sibir x Thalia
3) Sibir and Thalia are not MIX and pure CSW, from a great CSW breeder

==> So we have now a new colour line... You just have to change the CSW Standard ...

Why looking for complicated issues?

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Jet

1) This Puppy is red, (and beautifull).
2) DNA proof show us that he is coming by Sibir x Thalia
3) Sibir and Thalia are not MIX and pure CSW, from a great CSW breeder

==> So we have now a new colour line... You just have to change the CSW Standard ...

Why looking for complicated issues?

Are you joking?

[GalomyOak]

How did the red color come to be in the Saarloos? Aren't they also crosses of GSD and wolf?

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Rona

Are you joking?

Yes... But sometimes, stupid ideas can reveal a better way, the only hope is to find a way to resolve this problem.

French breeders ar not in quiet position. It is not easy for them to find a way, because their job is to sell us Puppies. They are inside the problem.

So us, simple owners as me, we are just the end of the chain, outside. So we ask you, in this universal forum, to do something. To help our clean Breeders as Nadia and Lorry, to get out them this witch hunt.

[martiou07]

Originally Posted by Jet

1) This Puppy is red, (and beautifull).
2) DNA proof show us that he is coming by Sibir x Thalia
3) Sibir and Thalia are not MIX and pure CSW, from a great CSW breeder

==> So we have now a new colour line... You just have to change the CSW Standard ...

Why looking for complicated issues?

good joke Jet

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

How did the red color come to be in the Saarloos? Aren't they also crosses of GSD and wolf?

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

No. In the fact they are mixes of different breeds and accoridng to different sources also nordic breeds (husky or malamute) are involed. They are "Wolfdogs" only on the paper.

As far as my understanding Saarloos also have as Margo says Nordic breeds in foundation. I think the earliest 'original' project was GSD x wolves but later additional breedings involved wolves outside of Europe as well as Nordic mixes. If so, I could easily see how a red Saarloos would be of similar coloration to red huskies.

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

OK, I am reading now the original papewr on the TYRP1 mutations causing bb phenotype, so more to come, but from what I understood untill now, they are loss-of-function kind of mutations, which actually can occur de novo.

We know by experience in the breed (high inbreeding level) that the probability have to be ultra low, IMHO in this case with all associated problems around, this should not be researched as first evidences.

Originally Posted by Lorry - MLS

- Maybe, Daniela will determine if there Saarloos in these 3 dogs ?

This is difficult as if you don't fit a current research program, universities won't put a cent on this. So right now the effort should be put on DNA parentage testing.
Won't breeding clubs, with help of law(?), could help going in this direction ? Implication regarding number of offspring is scaring...

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

OK, I am reading now the original papewr on the TYRP1 mutations causing bb phenotype, so more to come, but from what I understood untill now, they are loss-of-function kind of mutations, which actually can occur de novo, and with Fallko Kollarov dvor being common ancestor of both Thalia and Sibir, if he gained a new loss-of-function mutation of TYRP1, then it could show exactly like it happened here. Which doesn't mean it cannot be due to inmixing of Saarloos, but, if we are lucky, it can be looked into, by finding out what allele is present in the red pups, and compare it to allelle present in forrest/brown Saarloos wolfdogs.

Anyway, off to look at the paper (have access here at work).

An interesting part in the paper, the fact that the authors did not consider for "Grackle" case a de novo mutation possibility could show their thinking about the time scale of those kind of mutation is not so short:

"It is not sur-prising that the recessive brown could be maintained in
black dogs for many generations. Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back."

[saschia]

Originally Posted by elf

Grackle, who carries one copy of
the proline deletion in TYRP1 (Table 3), was black and white,
and her closest brown German Longhair ancestor is six gen-
erations back.

How many generations in CSW? I am not saying it is a de novo mutation, but not taking that possibility into account means we believe, that there was intentional mixing in a well known and established kennel.

Between the creation of the breed and nowadays, there was at least one bottleneck, maybe several, that caused high relatedness in the breed. Such a visible trait, as the red/brown color is, would be noticed before, if it came from GSD, no?

And de novo mutations do occur all the time, we just usually do not see them. Maybe the authors of the paper did not take them into account just because the dog that had the unusual allele, was related to brown animals in just a few generations back. And may it was a mistake not to take possibility of de novo mutation, but it actually was not the scope of the paper to ponder the origins of the mutations, but only their presence and mechanism of their action.

But, the testing for the color allele would say a lot I think, so that's the fastest way to get any answers regarding Thalia and Sibir right now. If they do not find the mutations tested nowadays, that will tell us something. If they find the one that is also present in SAV, that tells us something too. If they find two different mutations, that again tells us a lot.

[elf]

Originally Posted by saschia

I am not saying it is a de novo mutation, but not taking that possibility into account means we believe, that there was intentional mixing in a well known and established kennel.

But this is not the point, the point is to know if the line is clean or not (blaming X or Y is another topic) and how to proceed for checks. In addition, mixing could occured without the breeder noticed it, when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it.

Furthermore, those red puppies are only one of the "anomalies" we have in the line, I guess you saw some other pics Margo put. With the huge number of offsprings of this line, the impact in the breed as a whole is really important and should be investigated as best as possible the sooner possible.

[saschia]

elf, I agree with you, the color is only one of the problem, but it is the one that can be cleared up relatively easily. If there was mixing, to produce red puppies, at least two mixings (with at least 1 SW) would have to occur. So once is a possibility of accident, but twice... I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers...

[Silvester]

Originally posted by elf :
"In addition, mixing could occured without the breeder noticed it, when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it."

Hmmm....interesting...!

Originally posted by saschia :
"I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers..."

Yeah, you are right - such breeder SHOULD BE able to do so, no question!

[Jennin Lauma]

Originally Posted by saschia

elf, I agree with you, the color is only one of the problem, but it is the one that can be cleared up relatively easily. If there was mixing, to produce red puppies, at least two mixings (with at least 1 SW) would have to occur. So once is a possibility of accident, but twice... I mean, experienced breeder, especially one with several breeding females and stud dogs, should be able to produce pups of only declared fathers...

Was there a spesific reason to conclude that there must be more than one mixing taken place?

I'm just wondering, because this does not necessarely have to be the case.

If there is any inbreeding (like in this case there is), then it does not need more than one individual to introduce a new trait (recessive gene) into the lineage/breed. Because due to inbreeding, this one individual may end up appearing in both parent's sides in the pedigree. -And in such situation, the chances are that some day in some certain pairing the recessive gene gets doubled, and so it appears in the phenotype of some offspring.

Of course there CAN be more than one "oopsie daisy" (a mix up by accident or on purpose) taken place.
But I just wanted to point out, that if suddenly some weird looking puppies of homozygous recessive genotype (like in this case bb / brown coloured) occurs, it may very well be a result of only one "oopsie daisy" that is just doubled in the pedigree (comes from both parent's sides).

Recessive traits may jump over several generations unnoticed, and it may take time before (due to the chances of random selection of the genes) some day some certain individual will inherit two copies of this recessive gene, that once came from possibly only one certain anchestor who passed it forward over several generations.

[Lorry - MLS]

Originally Posted by elf

when the french breeder visited Edit's kennel some years ago, she noticed there was a (male red colored) Saarloos there and had some concern about it.
.

Attention, initialement je n'ai jamais affirmé que c'était un mâle ! j'ai même indiqué que j'avais cru comprendre que c'était une femelle stérilisée de C. Keiser....
C'est à la suite de la naissance des chiots roux, quand j'ai prévenu M. Capiez Franck, par téléphone par rapport à Volos (entre autre) qu'il m'a affirmé qu'il s'agissait d'un mâle (castré d'après lui)

Attention, first of all I never said it was a male! I even pointed that, for what I could understand, it was a neuthered female of C.Keiser...
It was after the birth of the red pups, when I've warned Mr.capiez Frank by phone about Volos (among others) and he told me it was an male (neuthered)