Wolf Dog Education

GalomyOak · 18-05-2011, 22:49

Some of the foundation GSD blood, as I have read several times, came from a wolf in Karlsruhe...does this mean the GSDs of the early 1900's might have behaved...wolfy?

Sara and dragger own a CW puppy, and also a puppy from my first litter, Luna. At least in Luna's case, I can assure that she was heavily socialized, and spent her first 8 weeks sleeping about 4 meters from my bed. She was picked up at 8.5 weeks, and I feel very confident that she was socialized nicely from then on. She may have been the youngest/only CSV pup to spend some time in Manhatten.

I have not had the opportunity to see Luna as an adult, but she sounds in description very much like her mother - suspicious, but open -and a talker. Anthea is a very vocal dog. Luna's brother lives in Chicago, and is very social, another brother lives in North Carolina, he is submissive, but open, and the third brother lives with me, he has a temperament very much like his dad - i compare it to that of a snobby child - only wanting to ignore people that aren't "his friends", but not shy.

I have seen puppies from the same litter with very different personalities, puppies raised outdoors with very bold and open personalities. And, puppies raised indoors with heavy socialization who are quite shy and submissve...one of my own actually, Jovice, who was very open as a puppy. She was raised no differently than my other dogs - and her brothers, that I have met (and own 1), are 2 of the most open, dominant and bold CSVs that I know. They were a product of Baron, and Sleeping Storm Wolfsirius, a dog with an "unofficial" Of/Oc.

All of my dogs have really different personalities, but I'd hardly call them skittish (besides Jovice) - alert maybe, but no more so than the GSDs I work with. There are 2 GSDs in particular that remind me a lot of my CSVs...one is from CZ with heavy lines on Fero/Troll, and z Pohricini Straze, the other is heavy on Lord vom Gleisderick, one does schutzhund, the other, drug detection.

I really believe it's a combination of selected, but still, random genetics (especially with outcrosses) AND proper socialization...and I think it is very important that socialization is a carefully planned process throughout the first 2 years for our breed, as much as carefully researching genetics and seeing relatives before breeding.

I think an interesting piece of data to look at in Pollux's pedigree are the bonitations for several generations back. Sure, a character evaluation in bonitation isn't "everything"...but it is something, I guess. It's not my intention to point any harm at any breeder, but only to review data.

Pollux's mom, Yolka Crying Wolf = Oc
Yolka is the only dog with bonitation from this litter

Yolka's mom, Flash Crying Wolf = no bonitation
3 F Crying Wolf littermates with bonitation = Oc, Ob, Ob
On a sidenote, I had the opportunity to meet Frida CW at 7 years of age, she was only a little shy of new siuations and people and very aggressive towards strange dogs. She had been through lots of socialization, including schutzhund classes.

Flash came from Alfi Vuk and Moòa z Krotkovského dvora = Of, Og

Mooa's other litters with different males produced puppies = Of, Og, Of
Her parents were Of, Og

Alfi produced only one litter
His parents were Ob, Ob

It seems possible that a particularly dominant gene/s might have been expressed/preserved through the lines and combinations?

yukidomari · 18-05-2011, 23:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Some of the foundation GSD blood, as I have read several times, came from a wolf in Karlsruhe...does this mean the GSDs of the early 1900's might have behaved...wolfy?

OT, but for a long time I did research on GSDs and wolfblood with a friend into GSDs who is very interested in this myth, and have not found anything to substantially support it at all. I have looked at the older versions of vS's book and found nothing, though I have yet to find access to the stud books. What sources are you drawing your information from, besides the one oft quoted yet unsubstantiated article by Dresselhus (which is also posted on your kennel site), who is a breeder of wolf and dog mixes?

Some people have said that Cita z Ps appears in both CsV (as F2) and GSD pedigrees, but I've yet to see proof it's the same bitch as well.

Personally, as long as I can't substantiate it, I would not repeat it because it seems to me to be a sort of 'justification' of the breed which may or may not be real, which I don't think is needed in either case. As long as it's as unprovable as a rumor, I'd let rumors alone.

GalomyOak · 19-05-2011, 00:01

Jing,

A trip down memory lane, post #13 (maybe it's hearsay, but I trust Margo!

):

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=334

yukidomari · 19-05-2011, 00:17

Thanks for the link; According to there, it seems like the sources are the stud books and also the book:

"100 Jahre - Der Deutsche Schäferhund". Sonderausgabe der SV-Zeitung.
Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V.
April 1999"

Will have to dig around. Thanks!

PS. Trip down memory lane indeed - funny to see posts by Tina @ New Zion kennels/ Shiloh Shepherds.

19-05-2011, 00:01	#3
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	Jing, A trip down memory lane, post #13 (maybe it's hearsay, but I trust Margo! ): http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=334 __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

19-05-2011, 00:17	#4
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Thanks for the link; According to there, it seems like the sources are the stud books and also the book: "100 Jahre - Der Deutsche Schäferhund". Sonderausgabe der SV-Zeitung. Verein für Deutsche Schäferhunde (SV) e.V. April 1999" Will have to dig around. Thanks! PS. Trip down memory lane indeed - funny to see posts by Tina @ New Zion kennels/ Shiloh Shepherds. Last edited by yukidomari; 19-05-2011 at 00:33.

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18-05-2011, 22:49	#1
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	Some of the foundation GSD blood, as I have read several times, came from a wolf in Karlsruhe...does this mean the GSDs of the early 1900's might have behaved...wolfy? Sara and dragger own a CW puppy, and also a puppy from my first litter, Luna. At least in Luna's case, I can assure that she was heavily socialized, and spent her first 8 weeks sleeping about 4 meters from my bed. She was picked up at 8.5 weeks, and I feel very confident that she was socialized nicely from then on. She may have been the youngest/only CSV pup to spend some time in Manhatten. I have not had the opportunity to see Luna as an adult, but she sounds in description very much like her mother - suspicious, but open -and a talker. Anthea is a very vocal dog. Luna's brother lives in Chicago, and is very social, another brother lives in North Carolina, he is submissive, but open, and the third brother lives with me, he has a temperament very much like his dad - i compare it to that of a snobby child - only wanting to ignore people that aren't "his friends", but not shy. I have seen puppies from the same litter with very different personalities, puppies raised outdoors with very bold and open personalities. And, puppies raised indoors with heavy socialization who are quite shy and submissve...one of my own actually, Jovice, who was very open as a puppy. She was raised no differently than my other dogs - and her brothers, that I have met (and own 1), are 2 of the most open, dominant and bold CSVs that I know. They were a product of Baron, and Sleeping Storm Wolfsirius, a dog with an "unofficial" Of/Oc. All of my dogs have really different personalities, but I'd hardly call them skittish (besides Jovice) - alert maybe, but no more so than the GSDs I work with. There are 2 GSDs in particular that remind me a lot of my CSVs...one is from CZ with heavy lines on Fero/Troll, and z Pohricini Straze, the other is heavy on Lord vom Gleisderick, one does schutzhund, the other, drug detection. I really believe it's a combination of selected, but still, random genetics (especially with outcrosses) AND proper socialization...and I think it is very important that socialization is a carefully planned process throughout the first 2 years for our breed, as much as carefully researching genetics and seeing relatives before breeding. I think an interesting piece of data to look at in Pollux's pedigree are the bonitations for several generations back. Sure, a character evaluation in bonitation isn't "everything"...but it is something, I guess. It's not my intention to point any harm at any breeder, but only to review data. Pollux's mom, Yolka Crying Wolf = Oc Yolka is the only dog with bonitation from this litter Yolka's mom, Flash Crying Wolf = no bonitation 3 F Crying Wolf littermates with bonitation = Oc, Ob, Ob On a sidenote, I had the opportunity to meet Frida CW at 7 years of age, she was only a little shy of new siuations and people and very aggressive towards strange dogs. She had been through lots of socialization, including schutzhund classes. Flash came from Alfi Vuk and Moòa z Krotkovského dvora = Of, Og Mooa's other litters with different males produced puppies = Of, Og, Of Her parents were Of, Og Alfi produced only one litter His parents were Ob, Ob It seems possible that a particularly dominant gene/s might have been expressed/preserved through the lines and combinations? __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com Last edited by GalomyOak; 18-05-2011 at 22:58.