Wolf Dog Education

[GalomyOak]

http://www.akc.org/breeds/czechoslov...og/history.cfm

http://www.ukcdogs.com/WebSite.nsf/B...ovakianWolfdog

[yukidomari]

Besides the fact that CsVs are a breed of dog that don't have Husky or Malamute ancestry, wouldn't ANY "wolfdog" be a mix of some wolf and some dog?

[draggar]

Having met with the FLA (Florida Lupine Association) there is a TON of misinformation out there in regards to wolf-hybrids, wolfdogs, and (in an extended sense) vlcaks and saarloos.

For those of us in the USA since we only have a handful of vlcak owners (and I think no saarloos?) it may not be a bad idea to reach out to wolf-hybrid / wolfdog clubs to work with them (about temperament, living with them, etc..). After meeting with the FLA we think Luna and Pollux are far more wolfier than we did think before (many of their traits we though were just annoying puppy traits but many turn out to be wolf-traits).

Some of the wolf-hybrids at the club were about 50% (some were first generation hybrids) and they are VERY wolfy in temperament (skittish, alert, etc..).
As for the article I have to disagree with a lot of it and a lot of it seems to be assumptions. The average vlcak is what, around 30% wolf? That would make them a low content according to the article and should look and act like a GSD. I'll let the author live with Pollux for a few days and they'll quickly rewrite the article. I think the wolf genetics are dominant so even lower content hybrids will show a lot of the wolfy characteristics.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by draggar

That would make them a low content according to the article and should look and act like a GSD. I'll let the author live with Pollux for a few days and they'll quickly rewrite the article.

Sorry, but if a vlcak behaves like a wolf it only means that the breeder made bad selection/breeding decisions and/or neglected early socialisation of the pup. Alternatively it could mean that the owner did not socialize/train the pup correctly. A vlcak should be a vlcak not a wolf or a wolf-hybrid.
Unfortunately, some breeders select towards appearance only, ignoring character, early socialisation, owner selection, etc. and some naive buyers buy such animals without proper kennel research, knowledge about the breed, experience etc. Later such people write naive articles or claim that

Originally Posted by draggar

wolf genetics are dominant so even lower content hybrids will show a lot of the wolfy characteristics.

Draggar, how many vlcaks have you raised until their full maturity to make such claims! How many vlcaks have you seen working, participating in shows, camps and trainings to have the right to state that

Originally Posted by draggar

average vlcak is what, around 30% wolf?

Why do you extrapolate your limited personal experience to the whole breed? CSV is not a 30% wolf! It's a dog.

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

Sorry, but if a vlcak behaves like a wolf it only means that the breeder made bad selection/breeding decisions and/or neglected early socialisation of the pup. Alternatively it could mean that the owner did not socialize/train the pup correctly. A vlcak should be a vlcak not a wolf or a wolf-hybrid.

Unfortunately, some breeders select towards appearance only, ignoring character, early socialisation, owner selection, etc. and some naive buyers buy such animals without proper kennel research, knowledge about the breed, experience etc. Later such people write naive articles or claim that

Last time I checked the vlcak breed was made by crossing Czech working line German shepherds with Carpathian wolves. Not only that we're dealing with what, generations 9-12 now (roughly, depending on lines)? This means that they are still very close to their wolf ancestors and considering that there hasn't been any breeding with other breeds we can assume that the genetics in the first "official" generations are still present in today's generations.

Yes, a vlcak should be a vlcak but they will have wolfy characteristics. With mutts (no, I am not saying vlcaks are mutts) typically the breed it looks more like it will act more like. So with a vlcak that looks very wolfy (like a Slovak show line) chances are it's genetic temperament will be more wolfy than one that looks more like a silver and black GSD (like Czech working lines).

Also, thank you for the slap in the face. We socialized Pollux as much as we could. We even had him in our service dog training program and he got FAR more exposure than the average dog (South Florida Fair, short trips, etc.). When we had him he was out being socialized and even now when I walk him around the community I make a point to stop and talk to my neighbors for a while so he gets used to other people. He's still very skittish (that's the wolf side, not the GSD side). He enjoys schutzhund but I think that's mainly because he got to know the helper.

Even Luna has some characteristics that we assume are wolf characteristics. If she gets corrected and she thinks it's unfair you need to rebuild her trust, not like our GSDs or malinois who think "Stupid human, we forgive you" and aren't hurt by it.

Both vlcaks are always trying to reaffirm their place in our pack. They are far more affectionate (but not constant) than the other dogs (and any dog we've had in the past) and try more to interact with us.

Draggar, how many vlcaks have you raised until their full maturity to make such claims! How many vlcaks have you seen working, participating in shows, camps and trainings to have the right to state that
Why do you extrapolate your limited personal experience to the whole breed? CSV is not a 30% wolf! It's a dog.

Dogs are a subspecies of the wolf - that's why they were reclassified from canis familiaris to canis lupus familiaris (yes, canis lupus dingo also but we don't get into that now).

They have wolf recently in their history so they'll have wolf genetics and wolf temperaments (not 100% but a lot more than most breeds of dogs). Also at the FLA meeting the wolf hybrids there acted a lot more like our vlcaks than most dogs.

You also seemed to reiterate a lot that a vlcak is not a wolf or a wolf hybrid. Where did I make the claim that they are? All I said is that there is wolf in the breed's ancestry (I say my ancestry is in part Irish but I am not Irish). We appreciate that here. We think it is important to observe the characteristics of animals (domestic and wild) and learn from it. Many breeds of dogs have wolf characteristics and in our experience it seems that vlcaks have a lot more than the average dog. If we didn't appreciate "the wollfness" of the breed we would have stuck with German shepherds.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by draggar

We socialized Pollux as much as we could.

I didn't mean you were not socializing Pollux corectly. On the contrary I said earlier in some other thread that I appreciate you are doing so much for him. But I also remember a thread from the times when Sara's friend was getting him where several people from various parts of Europe were mentioning that CW gives great looks, but rather versatile characters - you have to be lucky to get a good dog for sports from that particular kennel. (BTW I don't have any experiences with CW dogs so it wasnt' me who made those remarks!).

Here I was talking in general terms. E.g. I know a very shy, wolfish vlcak female from a very nice litter with great genetics coming from a very good and caring kennel. Her sibilings are open and cooperating. Her skittishness, as you call it, is obviously caused by bad socialistion and negligence on the side of the owner. I wanted to make a point that not always only the breeder should be blamed for the dog's poor character... On the other hand I also know dogs of several other breeds with similar problems - shyness and other wolf characterisitics are not typical solely for vlcaks!

One thing is sure: shyness, according to the CSV standard is a vice, not a breed characterisitc

I found your post very worrying, because people who know little about vlcaks and come to this site and then read that CSV are like wolfdogs/hybrids get a very false impression! Vlcaks should be vlcaks - there is a detailed breed standard and the fact that certain number of individuals don't meet it, due to various reasons, does not automatically mean the breed is similar to wolfdogs or wolf hybrids with random mixture of genetics.

[Silvester]

Originally posted by Rona :
"I found your post very worrying, because people who know little about vlcaks and come to this site and then read that CSV are like wolfdogs/hybrids get a very false impression!

Vlcaks should be vlcaks - there is a detailed breed standard and the fact that certain number of individuals don't meet it, due to various reasons, does not automatically mean the breed is similar to wolfdogs or wolf hybrids with random mixture of genetics."

Yeah exactly !! I could not have told it in better words ! This is the reason why I have a vlcak - and not an "American wolfdog" or any kind of hybrid / crossing , no matter what generation F1 to Fxxx it is!

May be it should be addet that vlcak - unlike any wolfdog crossings - have a history of (very strict in the beginning )selection and breeding to fulfill this standart both by physical appearance and by behaviour.

This is what is missing in the "breed" of wolfdog hybrids/mixes - anything is only leave to the chance... and that´s not breeding, it´s simply producing unpredictable mixes. With sometimes bad or even fatal results!

Best greetings , Uli alias Silvester

[draggar]

Originally Posted by Rona

One thing is sure: shyness, according to the CSV standard is a vice, not a breed characterisitc

Luna won't go up and be friends with anyone she meets. Not because she is shy but because she won't be instant friends with anyone. If we wanted that we would have gotten a lab.

I found your post very worrying, because people who know little about vlcaks and come to this site and then read that CSV are like wolfdogs/hybrids get a very false impression! Vlcaks should be vlcaks - there is a detailed breed standard and the fact that certain number of individuals don't meet it, due to various reasons, does not automatically mean the breed is similar to wolfdogs or wolf hybrids with random mixture of genetics.

I have *never* called them wolfdogs or wolf-hybrids nor will I ever call them that. This is why I'm calling the UKC club the "United Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club" (UCSVC) - and I was glad to see Marcy's club is the CSVCA (Czechoslovakian Vlcak Club of America). I've stressed that they are vlcaks and not wolfdogs or wolf hybrids (in fact, I stress this on my vlcak sites). There is a bad reputation here in the USA with 'wolf hybrids" (that's a different debate) and I didn't want the vlcak breed to be mixed in with that reputation. I'd be saying the same with Saarloos and Lupo Italianos.

BUT - there is wolf in the breed. Just like Saarloos and Lupi Italianos and (unofficially) German shepherds (moreso in DDR and Czech working lined dogs). I'm not going to deny that fact.

There are quirks (and I don't mean that as a bad thing) in their personality that are not from the German shepherd side so where did they come from? The only time we've seen these quirks, and they were in a much less scale, was in a Czech line German shepherd whose ancestors were part of the vlcak program but stayed on the GSD side (despite the fact that kennels deny this).

When people start to deny where things come from that's where problems start. I don't deny that herding (as in a dog herding sheep) is modified hunting. I also don't deny killer whale and dolphin shows are hunting demonstrations - just modified to look entertaining to us ignorant humans. When you look at it hat way you respect it and when you lose that respect problems happen.

Yes, they are a vlcak and the vlcak is a breed on it's own. We're far enough out from the initial project so we can consider them their own breed. This doesn't mean you can deny where the breed came from.

Originally Posted by GalomyOak

Some of the foundation GSD blood, as I have read several times, came from a wolf in Karlsruhe...does this mean the GSDs of the early 1900's might have behaved...wolfy?

I have video of Strongheart and will have digital video of the original Rin Tin Tin by the end of the weekend. These weren't far from the original GSD (maybe 10-15 years for Strongheart and 15-20 years for Rin Tin Tin). I'm sure people will notice quirks from them.

Sara and dragger own a CW puppy, and also a puppy from my first litter, Luna. At least in Luna's case, I can assure that she was heavily socialized, and spent her first 8 weeks sleeping about 4 meters from my bed. She was picked up at 8.5 weeks, and I feel very confident that she was socialized nicely from then on. She may have been the youngest/only CSV pup to spend some time in Manhatten. I have not had the opportunity to see Luna as an adult, but she sounds in description very much like her mother - suspicious, but open -and a talker. Anthea is a very vocal dog.

Luna is still training to be a service dog for Sara and she did PHENOMINAL in Orlando (even though she worked her rear end off). No weight support and it was mostly "dry" working (working without working). She kept up with us (even after very long days), even on hot days, and did OK with strangers during her breaks. She never freaked out when a server brought food or drinks to our table and managed crowds extremely well, we were very impressed with her. Luna is a great candidate to take over after Zorro.

The temperament issues are with Pollux (who has washed out of the training program but we may give him another try this fall). He is skittish and doesn't like strangers. I've been working on this a lot, giving neighbors treats and telling them NOT to make eye contact - just have their hand out with treats and it's been (slowly) coming along. He is much better than he used to be and he is beautiful (I think that is his saving grace) and very playful and loves the szhutzhund game (if we get his off-lead obedience down we might be able to put a schutzhund title on him). He's an odd fellow, out on the field he's confident and acts like he's the best one out there. He has it in him we're just trying to get it out more often.

Edit: Here is some Strongheart video I put on Youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v8rEpXcAG0E

[yukidomari]

Originally Posted by draggar

The average vlcak is what, around 30% wolf?

By pure mathematical calculation, which means not much at all:

http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8749
http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=14459