czw puppy

yukidomari · 19-04-2011, 18:26

In my personal observation of "alpha rolls", only puppies are sometimes forcibly "rolled" by siblings and perhaps the mother and nobody is worse off.

When adults, when I observe rolls, often times it is without physical force - in this case I mean that the dog already recognizes the status of some other dog or some other human. For example, my 3 year old female will roll herself when my 13 year old male is upset with her, without him touching her at all. And when my boyfriend is very upset with the dogs sometimes, they will roll over by themselves..

But we have never rolled the dogs as a method of punishment or to teach them anything.. they do this out of instinct.

However, on the other hand when I see forcible rolls, like sometimes in the dog park between stranger dogs, oftentimes fights will break out.

Because as Tassle said, I don't wish to get into a physical fight with my dogs, I avoid rolling them because I feel that there are alternative, non-physical methods of training for the same goal.

If I wanted to simulate some idea of "how a dog pack works", then I accept that when a dog is forcibly rolled, it can respond by biting or fighting back, as that is what I observe between dogs.

That's just my opinion.

Rush · 20-04-2011, 07:01

i can do forceless alpharoll to my pup to, his attention has to be at me and doesnt work always.. Just have to walk firmly towards him and step over him and he would get on his back. Tassle, he doesnt fight back, usually when i let him he just walks slowly away or goes chewing something else.. I was told i have to win the fights now as he is pup so no need when he grows, and i wouldnt roll an adult

too risky

Rona · 20-04-2011, 07:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rush

i can do forceless alpharoll to my pup to, his attention has to be at me and doesnt work always.. Just have to walk firmly towards him and step over him and he would get on his back. Tassle, he doesnt fight back, usually when i let him he just walks slowly away or goes chewing something else.. I was told i have to win the fights now as he is pup so no need when he grows, and i wouldnt roll an adult

too risky

Then what's the point in asking questions if you know the best answers?

It's your pup and you can raise it as you wish.

Rush · 20-04-2011, 07:49

Im using forced methods at minimum and im not experienced, I follow advices(specially from breeder-logical if i got him there

) and must say as already 2 times before that he is really gettin better, his biting has reduced even more now, he doesnt even attack anymore my..hm..the word..shoes for in house lets say

which has some things like hairs which he loved to bite..His crying has reduced, also he stopped crying in car(unless he wants to go to toilet) and when i put him in trunk he sits and waits without need to say it anymore instead of trying to escape and jump out.. And more things.. So i think im not doing it bad but also i cant say i dont do mistakes, we learn all the time right? Tassle one question-Did you say you hide things that pup shouldnt chew and when you forbid it? Becouse to me that seems he wouldnt understand it, and if you mistakenly leave something in reach it would go for it..Hope you said it, im currently typing on my phone

cant see as good as on computer.. So have a nice day everyone

Rush · 20-04-2011, 09:47

Im asking to see what others think and to see if i do right or wrong.. And because im unexperienced.. And also more methods more i can try and see what works best and also see if you guys think that methods are good or possibly risky as you ppl were replaying for roll.. And being told something doesnt mean its still best, so more research and opinions is easier to see what is true and working for most ppl and what not..

Tassle · 20-04-2011, 11:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rush

Im asking to see what others think and to see if i do right or wrong.. And because im unexperienced.. And also more methods more i can try and see what works best and also see if you guys think that methods are good or possibly risky as you ppl were replaying for roll.. And being told something doesnt mean its still best, so more research and opinions is easier to see what is true and working for most ppl and what not..

In Which case I feel your approach is wrong. Getting into confrontational situations with dogs is not good IME.

However - I also feel it can be very dangerous to seek advice from too many different avenues. By trying out too many methods - you are liable to confuse your pup and yourself. Choose an approach and stick with it.

tupacs2legs · 20-04-2011, 11:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rush

i can do forceless alpharoll to my pup to, his attention has to be at me and doesnt work always.. Just have to walk firmly towards him and step over him and he would get on his back. Tassle, he doesnt fight back, usually when i let him he just walks slowly away or goes chewing something else.. I was told i have to win the fights now as he is pup so no need when he grows, and i wouldnt roll an adult

too risky

their should not be any fights ! let alone 'winning' that is a very sad attitude to have imo.

you need to bond,teach and guide ..not alpha roll and fight

imo your pup will loose his trust in you...and trust is everything imo.

Rush · 20-04-2011, 12:15

So how would pup know thats wrong when he would attack as i wrote last time if i just walk away? And it didnt happen again..he was trying in some cases but also stopped quickly..And that was ment for 'fight'..Its breeders opinion i should finish, win always so he will understand and stop trying with time.. Otherwise it could happen when he will be grown up..I dont want to stay without my hand

But i repeat..This are rare cases and rarly needed to do something about it..What i use mostly everyday is positive reinforcement or no! for unallowed and when no is ignored i redirect him/his attention.. Tassle, can you say in other words what u ment with contraversal... ? Thanks

Rush · 20-04-2011, 12:18

confrontional sorry

Tassle · 20-04-2011, 17:02

Confrontational means that there is a challenge there somewhere, usually the owner is challenging the dog (for example -to remove something off him he wishes to keep). If the owner attempts to take this by force (physically removing the item from the dog, the dog will often attempt to protect the item, you would then be in a confrontational situation.

I hope this makes it clearer for you.

yukidomari · 20-04-2011, 18:34

Rush, the reason why I don't see a need to tell the puppy he did something wrong for "attacking" you was because I don't think that at just a few weeks old a dog is developed enough to display true aggression. Perhaps it was over enthusiastic playing? In such a case, wouldn't it be better to show the puppy what appropriate play is instead of rolling him?

In regards to chewing inappropriate things - I agree with the idea that you simply don't leave things you don't want chewed, out. You can't expect dogs to generalize "things not to chew" to include many things you didn't specifically say "not to chew" to. You can tell a dog not to chew this shoe, but it doesn't mean not to chew the other one, nor does it mean NEVER to chew this shoe, just not to chew it right this moment cause you said so. Nor does that mean not to chew the wall, closet, tree branches, etc.

You CAN however, easily tell the dog what IS ok to chew up, which is limited to just a few toys, normally

Of course there are many different schools of thinking when it comes to dog behaviors and training though!

19-04-2011, 18:26	#1
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	In my personal observation of "alpha rolls", only puppies are sometimes forcibly "rolled" by siblings and perhaps the mother and nobody is worse off. When adults, when I observe rolls, often times it is without physical force - in this case I mean that the dog already recognizes the status of some other dog or some other human. For example, my 3 year old female will roll herself when my 13 year old male is upset with her, without him touching her at all. And when my boyfriend is very upset with the dogs sometimes, they will roll over by themselves.. But we have never rolled the dogs as a method of punishment or to teach them anything.. they do this out of instinct. However, on the other hand when I see forcible rolls, like sometimes in the dog park between stranger dogs, oftentimes fights will break out. Because as Tassle said, I don't wish to get into a physical fight with my dogs, I avoid rolling them because I feel that there are alternative, non-physical methods of training for the same goal. If I wanted to simulate some idea of "how a dog pack works", then I accept that when a dog is forcibly rolled, it can respond by biting or fighting back, as that is what I observe between dogs. That's just my opinion. Last edited by yukidomari; 19-04-2011 at 18:30.

20-04-2011, 07:49	#4
Rush Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 35	Im using forced methods at minimum and im not experienced, I follow advices(specially from breeder-logical if i got him there) and must say as already 2 times before that he is really gettin better, his biting has reduced even more now, he doesnt even attack anymore my..hm..the word..shoes for in house lets say which has some things like hairs which he loved to bite..His crying has reduced, also he stopped crying in car(unless he wants to go to toilet) and when i put him in trunk he sits and waits without need to say it anymore instead of trying to escape and jump out.. And more things.. So i think im not doing it bad but also i cant say i dont do mistakes, we learn all the time right? Tassle one question-Did you say you hide things that pup shouldnt chew and when you forbid it? Becouse to me that seems he wouldnt understand it, and if you mistakenly leave something in reach it would go for it..Hope you said it, im currently typing on my phone cant see as good as on computer.. So have a nice day everyone

Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Email this Page
Display Modes
Switch to Linear Mode Hybrid Mode Switch to Threaded Mode

20-04-2011, 07:01	#2
Rush Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 35	i can do forceless alpharoll to my pup to, his attention has to be at me and doesnt work always.. Just have to walk firmly towards him and step over him and he would get on his back. Tassle, he doesnt fight back, usually when i let him he just walks slowly away or goes chewing something else.. I was told i have to win the fights now as he is pup so no need when he grows, and i wouldnt roll an adult too risky

20-04-2011, 09:47	#5
Rush Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 35	Im asking to see what others think and to see if i do right or wrong.. And because im unexperienced.. And also more methods more i can try and see what works best and also see if you guys think that methods are good or possibly risky as you ppl were replaying for roll.. And being told something doesnt mean its still best, so more research and opinions is easier to see what is true and working for most ppl and what not..

20-04-2011, 12:15	#8
Rush Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 35	So how would pup know thats wrong when he would attack as i wrote last time if i just walk away? And it didnt happen again..he was trying in some cases but also stopped quickly..And that was ment for 'fight'..Its breeders opinion i should finish, win always so he will understand and stop trying with time.. Otherwise it could happen when he will be grown up..I dont want to stay without my hand But i repeat..This are rare cases and rarly needed to do something about it..What i use mostly everyday is positive reinforcement or no! for unallowed and when no is ignored i redirect him/his attention.. Tassle, can you say in other words what u ment with contraversal... ? Thanks

20-04-2011, 12:18	#9
Rush Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Posts: 35	confrontional sorry

20-04-2011, 17:02	#10
Tassle Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Cornwall Posts: 137	Confrontational means that there is a challenge there somewhere, usually the owner is challenging the dog (for example -to remove something off him he wishes to keep). If the owner attempts to take this by force (physically removing the item from the dog, the dog will often attempt to protect the item, you would then be in a confrontational situation. I hope this makes it clearer for you.

20-04-2011, 18:34	#11
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Rush, the reason why I don't see a need to tell the puppy he did something wrong for "attacking" you was because I don't think that at just a few weeks old a dog is developed enough to display true aggression. Perhaps it was over enthusiastic playing? In such a case, wouldn't it be better to show the puppy what appropriate play is instead of rolling him? In regards to chewing inappropriate things - I agree with the idea that you simply don't leave things you don't want chewed, out. You can't expect dogs to generalize "things not to chew" to include many things you didn't specifically say "not to chew" to. You can tell a dog not to chew this shoe, but it doesn't mean not to chew the other one, nor does it mean NEVER to chew this shoe, just not to chew it right this moment cause you said so. Nor does that mean not to chew the wall, closet, tree branches, etc. You CAN however, easily tell the dog what IS ok to chew up, which is limited to just a few toys, normally Of course there are many different schools of thinking when it comes to dog behaviors and training though!