DM Testresults

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by Gia

Yes, K-lee is carrier, but I think it's not right topic fot this discussion.

Of course it is not the right topic... All results are and will be published on Mijke's list and in the topic about DM results on the forum...

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.
Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

[Nebulosa]

I sense that some gossips are being spreaded

[massimo]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.
Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

Look, if my questions are boorish..then I will stop asking questions, so you will all be happy.
I don't think you need my "support" or "contribution" anyway, there are enough little helpers...

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Massimo knew about it - but still he decided to post here his boorish question. It is topic of another kennel, of another country. It is VERY strange - but I think again some hidden motives and Massimo's personal fights are the reason for it...

Personal fights??

Since when I have personal fights with anybody on this thread? just because I asked a simple question...I got a whole tidewave of replies...so I am obliged to back off by the "stream".

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Massimo, why do you ask about DM results Enor person who DO NOT OWN HIM? Maybe it would be great idea to ask about it HIS OWNER?.
Why do you ask about DM results breeders from Spain where no dogs has been tested till now and first they are looking for possibilities to make it? And everybody knows it.

Funny.
If I am a breeder I have a female and I use a male.
I choose the male according to some criteria.
One of these is his health.
If I use him, I get info on his health, like DMA.
So , if Tuky used Enor, he could have asked about DMA results and so could know it, just like Ewa knew about the male she used.
But...these rules apply ONLY when we care right?
If we DONT CARE, then this applies to all the others.
Margo, do YOU care?
Does WOFLDOG.ORG site CARE?
I don't fight anybody.
I just ask you to CARE more about DMA and to test your dogs and to breed responsibly.
Are you (all breeders) doing this?
I honestly don't think so...More than ME witchhunting others it seems that there is a big Tabu on this argument, so the best I can do is to be silent...
All I ask for is health info on dogs...on super dogs, on best litters...but this seems not to be a nice argument.
How many litters published on this site have DMA results?
OPS, sorry, i did it again...i am just a booring italian...cannot keep my mouth shut.

[z Peronówki]

Massimo but why you are affraid of publishing the results? Oliver was used and it could safe a lot of work. His result is also very important for his puppy owners. And Lunatica - it doesn't matter that she is not for breeding - her result would be for sure interesting for Edith and other dogs from this line.
I know "carriers" or "affected" dogs can be reason for (similar) insinuations. But only if everybody will start to publish the results the breeders fights will stop...

Originally Posted by Massimo

How many litters published on this site have DMA results?

It is exactly the witch hunt... The idea of DM tests is new - it will take YEARS before we will have here all litters tested for DM. The same was with HD. ED is still "introduced". Why do you think it will be different with DM - that it will be done within few months?

Another fact which makes me laught: the "discovery" of some people that such problem exists... And the big panic right now....

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"
2) people still forget that "free" dogs ALSO can get problems with movement because there are more illnesses similar to DM
3) people forget that there is not a problem with DM but problem with lines where DM appears by pretty young dogs - it means lines which have not only DM genes but also genes "activating" this ilness

Sorry but for many years I was showing dogs which have problems to move properly... Which had "bad movement" already at the age of 4-5 years... Sure they were not moving like Forrest on the movie but some symptoms were visible... But no - nobody is interested in looking if the dog is healthy. The most important was that the dog has nice head and some show titles...
Now they start panic - Huston, we have a problem.

On the other side - I saw some "affected" dogs which are 12, 13, 14 years old now. For this age they still move perfect - the DM you can see only by small "details". And I think it is the "typical" type of development of DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.... Even if the illness appears - it appears in the high age. Exactly because of it DM was "hidden" for so long time - everybody though that the "specific" movement of some old dogs is just the consequence of their age....

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

It is exactly the witch hunt... The idea of DM tests is new - it will take YEARS before we will have here all litters tested for DM. The same was with HD. ED is still "introduced". Why do you think it will be different with DM - that it will be done within few months?

Another fact which makes me laught: the "discovery" of some people that such problem exists... And the big panic right now....

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"
2) people still forget that "free" dogs ALSO can get problems with movement because there are more illnesses similar to DM
3) people forget that there is not a problem with DM but problem with lines where DM appears by pretty young dogs - it means lines which have not only DM genes but also genes "activating" this ilness

Sorry but for many years I was showing dogs which have problems to move properly... Which had "bad movement" already at the age of 4-5 years... Sure they were not moving like Forrest on the movie but some symptoms were visible... But no - nobody is interested in looking if the dog is healthy. The most important was that the dog has nice head and some show titles...
Now they start panic - Huston, we have a problem.

On the other side - I saw some "affected" dogs which are 12, 13, 14 years old now. For this age they still move perfect - the DM you can see only by small "details". And I think it is the "typical" type of development of DM by Czechoslovakian Wolfdogs.... Even if the illness appears - it appears in the high age. Exactly because of it DM was "hidden" for so long time - everybody though that the "specific" movement of some old dogs is just the consequence of their age....

This is exactly what I try to tell the Swedish Saarloos/Vlcak Club, but they want to demand DM testing and take all Carriers of breeding, YES ALL CARRIER OFF BREEDING !!!

I´m in the club board and I support a recommendation for DM and Dwarf test, but think a demand is not scientifically supported yet, as for to have a demand by the Swedish Kennel Club it must bee a "Breed Problem" like we have whit HD. And as I know DM is not that common.

We only have very few CsV in Sweden, (10) but only 5 registered
take away 50% DM carriers and we have maximum 3 dogs to breed on, take away lines whit HD, we have maximum 2, take away the ones that do not have ED test and we have 1, take away the ones that do not have a Bonitation code and we have 0... And how about bad character, bad movements, other diseases and shy dogs... Than we are about -15 CsV in Sweden for breeding Lets get a bus and go down Europe...

I´m the only one that did the DM test on my dogs, Hronec Taabernakkelin was a "Carrier", the response was PANNNNNNNNNNNNNIC !!!! DON’T BREED HE IS SICK , but I have a free female and understand we can not take 50% of the CsV OFF BREEDING...

Now some of them think I´m a bad breeder ... ...

But as I know, I’m the only one in Sweden that did HD, ED, DM, MH = Mental dog description. And as far as I know non did any of the test above yet...
Except one that did the MH.

Witch hunt has started before breeding has

Very best regards / Mikael

[Nebulosa]

Mikael, you touched exactly in the main problem of lay people and the hystery caused by them, which only hinder a possible future selection for ends with this problem without affect the genetic pool of the breed or the quality of the animals, thing wich requires a lot of patience, time, study and understanding.
with the reaction of some people we can arrive at the conclusion that not all people are prepared to receive real informations about health issues also as they are not prepared to work with it. To worst, we have also several people spreading gossips as using the results as excuse to accuse a breeder with the pseudo-talk of ethical and responsibility.

I think people choose to make selective reading, there is write that the preference is avoid mates between both affected dogs or both carriers, and IF POSSIBLE only mate affecteds and carriers dogs with free animals, obviously. that it's the only way to diminish the number of affected animals and carriers, and in a future clean the breed of this gene, simple genetic, but instead of it, lay people understand it in extreme way and spread that every affected or carrier dog should have his usage avoided, and then, the hystery starts.
They also choose to dont read the part that say DM is a disease under research, which people still does not know for sure what causes, how to cure, how many types of DM exists, which is the differences between these types and how to find those different types in an early exam, like the genetic SOD1 test.
They know that SOD1 gene points a risky factor to DM and they are studying it.

They does not ask themselves:
What is possible to do in our breed?
Which selection should we make?
Which kind of DM is showing in our dogs?
If more than one, in which lines?
Which one we should give preference in selection?

It's kind different a dog which get paralitic because of DM with 6 years old of one which is still walking with 13, but showing some silly symptoms.

But unfortunately, seems that we will never be able to reply most of these questions thanks to the hystery.

[nanouk]

1) people always forget that "affected" dogs not always get ill - by many the illness will never "show up"

I have been told this many times, also with regards to Saarloos.. With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?
I hope i assume correctly that with twd like with the SWD 10 is not "old" yet.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by nanouk

I have been told this many times, also with regards to Saarloos.. With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?
I hope i assume correctly that with twd like with the SWD 10 is not "old" yet.

I may be wrong but I think by "affected" is meant "positive" and not "Ill"
A dog may be genetically "positive" DM/DM but not physically "Ill".
Of course if a dog is "Ill" then he will surely show signs.
But this is not true if a dog is "positive".
There are Positive dogs who are over 10 and not Ill.

[z Peronówki]

Originally Posted by nanouk

With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?.

I could tell you the names of several DM/DM dogs which are over 10 years old (one is even 14 years old) and still walk good (compared to their age)... Unfortunately the owners do not agree...
What I can do - I will travel to visit some of them in May. I can try to take some videos of them (the videos will not show the heads but the movement)...

And it is no wonder - Wolfdogs are different in this case...
Just look - DM is not a NEW illness. It has been in the "blood" of your dogs since founding of the breed because it came from German Shepherds... The DM tests are avaible for a long time... Vets know this illness very well - many GSDs suffer from it...
Why for many years there was not even one case of person who wrote about such problems by his/her dog? Why nobody wrote that Wolfdogs can have DM?

The answer is simply: because even if there are pretty many CzWs which are "carriers" and "affected" only VERY small amount of DM/DM dogs show serious symptoms... In the 12 years I saw hundreds of Wolfdogs. But not even one which had such problems as Forrest.
Sure that DM appears by CzWs too - but it appears when the dogs are already old (8+). And the symtoms are not so good visible... It is why the illness was "hidden" for so many years: many people, even if they saw a DM/DM dog though (because of the age of the dogs) that they walk "different" because of their age... Nobody though it can be symtom of any other "illess" than the most known: old age....

Originally Posted by Tatti

For everybody who's saying a dog who is a carrier don't have to become ill.
Tell it please to Michael, his dog Falco Crying Wolf will be 9 years old in Jan 2011 and he's already ill for almost 1 year.

Falco is not CARRIER (N/DM). HE is AFFECTED dog (DM). Carriers do not get ill...

But here you forgot one thing - Falco is brother of Forrest (the dog from the video). Both are DM/DM, both get ill in the (pretty) early age and by both dogs the illness develop very fast...

It doesn't mean it apply for all other "affected" dogs... It means only that exactly by this "family" there must be something in the genes what "activate" the illness... And exactly all breeding dogs from this line must be tested.
It doesn't mean other dogs do not need to be tested. It means only that by the dogs with similar ancestors a DM test is a must...

[elf]

Originally Posted by nanouk

I have been told this many times, also with regards to Saarloos.. With the many dogs that will never show the illness, can you name me 1, just one 'affected' TWD age 10 or older that doesn't show signs?
I hope i assume correctly that with twd like with the SWD 10 is not "old" yet.

Another interesting part from publication Genome-wide association analysis reveals a SOD1 mutation in canine degenerative myelopathy that resembles amyotrophic lateral sclerosis

"Mode of Inheritance of DM. All of the strictly diagnosed DMaffected
dogs were A/A homozygotes; however, several of the
aged A/A homozygotes were symptom free. Thus, DM appears
to be an incompletely penetrant autosomal recessive disease,
whereas most human SOD1 mutations cause dominant forms of
ALS. However, the N90A SOD1 isoform is associated with a
recessively inherited form of ALS in some families, but with a
dominant form in others (29, 30). The natural history of the
disease in the families with recessive inheritance resembles
canine DM in that onset is invariably in the lower limbs followed
by a slow disease progression, whereas the sites of onset and the
rates of progression of ALS in heterozygous N90A patients are
much more variable (29, 30). Among the families segregating for
the dominant form of ALS, rare patients with 2 copies of the
mutant SOD1 allele had much earlier ages at disease onset than
patients inheriting only a single copy (31, 32). Also, hSOD1m
mice with higher transgene copy numbers exhibit earlier disease
onset (5, 33), and the disease also occurs much earlier in
homozygous hSOD1m mice than in the corresponding heterozygotes
(34). With DM, the intermediate levels of staining for
SOD1 inclusions observed in 2 of the 5 aged heterozygotes (Fig.
3 E and F) suggests that pathological processes are underway in
these dogs even though no clinical signs are apparent. The
pathology in SOD1:c.118GA heterozygotes may develop too
slowly to become clinically apparent within the usual canine life
span. In this case, only A/A homozygotes would exhibit clinical
signs and the mode of inheritance would appear to be recessive
even if the pathogenesis, like that of ALS, involves a toxic gain
of function."

In addition, hypothesis dogs (N/DM) might be developping the disease (commonly much later, and more rare cases), so unfortunately we are still far to understand.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by z Peronówki

Look - in Italy the tests are done for years. For years there are also dogs known which surfered from DM and they same which are related with your dogs. Why you still didn't tested your dogs? But you ask (or better said: require) from other to have their dogs testes already now...

This is an example of the new wave of how to behave on wolfdog, wofldogetichette.
Same question from Daiva, same reply from me.

DNA test on Degenerative Mielopathy is relatively "new".
We can send blood tests to Germany from Italy or from Spain or from Poland in the same way.
The dogs I own who can reproduce have been tested.
I REPEAT: MY DOGS HAVE BEEN TESTED.
My 8 and 7 year old dogs, one without offspring and one with only one litter, will not reproduce anymore so I have no reason to BREED RESPONSIBLY with them.
But i guess my replies are useless right? somebody else will ask me again, when I kindly ask them if their dogs are tested, if I tested my dogs instead...