Tamaskan Dogs..

yukidomari · 06-07-2010, 16:50

Tuuli - Thanks for the information. I was wondering when they would DNA test Whitefang to one of his offspring to conclusively make evidence.

Luna's mom et al; PB mixing issues asides, I agree that whatever dogs they use as a foundation to their breed is their business.

HOWEVER, marketing a dog as not having wolf content when it clearly does - and has some high-content ones at that (F2s etc) - is a lie and really should not be done, especially if that is the main selling point. If you are marketing your dog as an alternative to a wolfdog, then by principle it cannot have any wolf content. It is just not ethically correct to mislead people this way. It is not about purebreds, mixes, or otherwise.

Furthermore, you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health problems, etc.

There are many people buying Tamaskan dogs because they have been led to believe that these dogs do not have wolf content and therefore they don't need to deal with everything that is typically associated with one - including legal ramifications. This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible to mislead people concerning this area.

You are right when you say that as CSV people we consider CSVs dogs, but we are also upfront about there being the inclusion of wolf in the breeding.

Gypsy Wolf · 06-07-2010, 21:59

Legally, I don't think they are "lying" - in our own words, we promote CsVs as dogs. Technically, all dogs are descended from wolves. In the development of the breed, they have not used any wolves. So they can get away with it.
There are other breeders who do similar - www.noblepawz.com
You have to really pry to determine whether or not there is recent wolf in the "breed" as the breed creator sort of uses a lot of fast talk...
The bottom line is that people are going to buy what they want, and demand is what moves the market.

yukidomari · 06-07-2010, 22:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

In the development of the breed, they have not used any wolves. So they can get away with it.

No, no, that's the problem. It's not just CSVs they've used, but actual pure wolves. Like 'Whitefang', a certified Interior Alaskan Tundra wolf. And recent, too. And, some deny the use of CSVs at all.. instead representing where Oskari falls as a purebred Siberian Husky (which CSVs are clearly not, both temperamentally and otherwise)..

And again, it's not about the content or what not, it's about being upfront about pedigree information. It's about correctly representing the dog.

Gypsy Wolf · 06-07-2010, 22:16

Ahh. OK, well that's just downright stupid! You can't brag about whitefang in your foundation and say there are no wolves! ???

yukidomari · 06-07-2010, 22:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Ahh. OK, well that's just downright stupid! You can't brag about whitefang in your foundation and say there are no wolves! ???

You can when you change the name on the pedigree on whitefang's offspring, and list him as an unknown breed.. even when one of said offspring's littermates tested DNA positive for having whitefang as a sire....

Gypsy Wolf · 06-07-2010, 22:46

Sounds like Dutch Malinois...

Joswolf · 08-07-2010, 17:23

Sorry but Whiteang is Valco but is no wolf. This is a picture and everyone can see that its no wolf.

http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...1.jpg?download
Jos

Tazer · 12-07-2010, 21:42

I'd have an easier time believing the 'no wolf tamaskan' site or what ever its called, if it wasn't for the fact that the new aatu tamaskan breeders who continuously bang on about all of this, didn't appear to be such hypocrits.

They say high content wolfdogs and csvs were used in the creation of the original tamaskan, and by the way they write, it would appear that that is an issue for them so, one has to ask if indeed their claim is true, and they indeed have an issue with it, then why on Earth are they contacting breeders of csvs to see if they can use a male for stud, there was also mention of them looking at using the dogs bred by noble paws, I think someone posted a link to their site earlier on here. Are those dogs not wolfdogs, or at least, they're claimed to be, so again, if wolfdog in the tamaskan is an issue, then why are they using wolfdog or planning to, in their new aatu tamaskan?

They say, that the original tamaskan is plagued with health issues, and that they're going to fix the problems in their new breed. However, one of their founder studs is a monorchid, one founder bitch is from lines known to produce epalepsy, the first litter of aatu tamaskan born in the USA was from a stud without full health test results, and thats if he is indeed the sire, there is some speculation as to that.

Just as a point of interest, their new breed is called the aatu tamaskan yes, tamaskan, you know the breed they dedicate sites to slagging off, well the original breed is so bad that they'd like to keep the name association...If it was me, and the breed was as bad as they claimed with regards to health etc, then I'd want to distance myself as much as possible from that wouldn't you. Just to add to it, they seem fond of dropping the aatu part of their new breeds name, and refer to them as tamaskans, of course, that isn't going to cause confusion is it?.

Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, then I don't know what is.

P.s.
Where is the solid proof of the dna evidence that is being claimed. I was also under the impression that there wasn't a test for wolf content, as both domestic dog and grey wolf dna is so similar, that it is near impossible to tell by a dna test if a dog does contain recent wolf content or not. Apologies if that is wrong, it has been a while since I looked into the subject, so science may have progressed since then.

Taz

Tazer · 13-07-2010, 18:34

Agree, I'd much rather have a csv too, and hopefuly I will do one day.

I would also agree that they're more of a type than a breed, like the rest of the wolf lookalikes. However, when compaired to those other lookalikes they do appear to produce more consistancey in their breeding.

Here in the uk we've got all the different types of lookalikes. They all started off with the same foundation stock, but at various times people broke away from the founder clubs, set up their own, mixed different breeds into their lines, changed the name, and then again people from those new groups broke off taking their dogs and starting the process all over again. So at present we've got the:

Northern inuit dog. Consisting of Siberian huskie, Alaskan malamute possibly, gsd, some random imported mixes from the USA of unknown parentage, some claim wolf or high content wolfdog, there was even a thought that they could have been mastiff added in as well. But basicly, people don't really know, and when you consider that the type is only around 20 years old, and one of the founder breeders is still very much living, you'd think there wouldn't be such confusion. Thats before we even get to the health problems, level of inbreeding, pedigrees that aren't worth the paper they're written on, lack of breeding ethics, etc etc. Basicly, its all one great big mess.

British inuit dog/british wolfdog. Northern inuit with the addition of csv or swh.

Timbre dog. As far as I'm aware, thats basicly anything that looks remotely wolf like in appearance.

Utonagan. Northern inuit with the addition of collie, not sure if anything else was added.

British utonagan. New break away group from the utonagan. Utonagan with the addition of the original founder breeds, siberian huskie, alaskan malamute, gsd, northern inuit, though they say they're not going to add collie again. They're also considering other breeds but don't know what they are, maybe bsd.

Tamaskan. Don't suppose I need to explain that one.

Aatu tamaskan. Refer to earlier post.

Taz

Joswolf · 08-07-2010, 19:57

yOU SAY, QOUTE-you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health including ............ This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible

First if Valco is no wolf they used no wolf when the breeder of Valco is Polarspeed. Then he was the one who breeded a wolf in a husky. But who can prove Valco comes from a wolf? You now Polarspeed or Yescoline couse then you now you cannot thrust his breeding and no one nows about what he does couse he simply doesnot tell anyone.
Second i do not untherstand the isseu about potential health or dangerous please explain are wolves dangerous?
And you do not need to explain me what a wolf looks like i have a polar wolf and Kapatian wolves and mixes and i now exactly what they look like.
I also saw Tamaskan and the so called F2 and i find no signals that tell me it is a hybrid. At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect.
Jos

yukidomari · 08-07-2010, 20:12

Yes, it would be the breeder at Polarspeed who bred Valko. Maybe we should DNA test Valko to the perspective sire?

And secondly I have never said 'wolves are dangerous', simply that lying about their pedigree is. It is dangerous for a variety of reasons including legal reasons and health knowledge. If the pedigrees are not forthcoming about the types of dogs used, then it is harder to isolate potential health problems commonly known to all breeds. If it is indeed true, for example, that GSDs were used as a foundation to Tamaskans, then breeders should be wary about the potential of Degenerative Myelopathy, for one.

Additionally, if a dog is not generations removed from wolf ancestry, it is illegal or requires a permit to own in many places and many countries. That is what is DANGEROUS. For both the dog and the owner, who can face the animal being confiscated, put down, fines, or otherwise. If Valko is a F1 wolfdog and Jodie at Blustag is his daughter, that would require a permit to own her.

You said, "At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect."

I have never said that nobody was happy with their Tamaskan dogs or that they were somehow trouble prone?

06-07-2010, 16:50	#1
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Tuuli - Thanks for the information. I was wondering when they would DNA test Whitefang to one of his offspring to conclusively make evidence. Luna's mom et al; PB mixing issues asides, I agree that whatever dogs they use as a foundation to their breed is their business. HOWEVER, marketing a dog as not having wolf content when it clearly does - and has some high-content ones at that (F2s etc) - is a lie and really should not be done, especially if that is the main selling point. If you are marketing your dog as an alternative to a wolfdog, then by principle it cannot have any wolf content. It is just not ethically correct to mislead people this way. It is not about purebreds, mixes, or otherwise. Furthermore, you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health problems, etc. There are many people buying Tamaskan dogs because they have been led to believe that these dogs do not have wolf content and therefore they don't need to deal with everything that is typically associated with one - including legal ramifications. This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible to mislead people concerning this area. You are right when you say that as CSV people we consider CSVs dogs, but we are also upfront about there being the inclusion of wolf in the breeding. Last edited by yukidomari; 06-07-2010 at 17:01.

12-07-2010, 21:42	#8
Tazer Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 77	I'd have an easier time believing the 'no wolf tamaskan' site or what ever its called, if it wasn't for the fact that the new aatu tamaskan breeders who continuously bang on about all of this, didn't appear to be such hypocrits. They say high content wolfdogs and csvs were used in the creation of the original tamaskan, and by the way they write, it would appear that that is an issue for them so, one has to ask if indeed their claim is true, and they indeed have an issue with it, then why on Earth are they contacting breeders of csvs to see if they can use a male for stud, there was also mention of them looking at using the dogs bred by noble paws, I think someone posted a link to their site earlier on here. Are those dogs not wolfdogs, or at least, they're claimed to be, so again, if wolfdog in the tamaskan is an issue, then why are they using wolfdog or planning to, in their new aatu tamaskan? They say, that the original tamaskan is plagued with health issues, and that they're going to fix the problems in their new breed. However, one of their founder studs is a monorchid, one founder bitch is from lines known to produce epalepsy, the first litter of aatu tamaskan born in the USA was from a stud without full health test results, and thats if he is indeed the sire, there is some speculation as to that. Just as a point of interest, their new breed is called the aatu tamaskan yes, tamaskan, you know the breed they dedicate sites to slagging off, well the original breed is so bad that they'd like to keep the name association...If it was me, and the breed was as bad as they claimed with regards to health etc, then I'd want to distance myself as much as possible from that wouldn't you. Just to add to it, they seem fond of dropping the aatu part of their new breeds name, and refer to them as tamaskans, of course, that isn't going to cause confusion is it?. Now if that isn't the pot calling the kettle black, then I don't know what is. P.s. Where is the solid proof of the dna evidence that is being claimed. I was also under the impression that there wasn't a test for wolf content, as both domestic dog and grey wolf dna is so similar, that it is near impossible to tell by a dna test if a dog does contain recent wolf content or not. Apologies if that is wrong, it has been a while since I looked into the subject, so science may have progressed since then. Taz __________________ Never argue with idiots. they drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

13-07-2010, 18:34	#9
Tazer Junior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 77	Agree, I'd much rather have a csv too, and hopefuly I will do one day. I would also agree that they're more of a type than a breed, like the rest of the wolf lookalikes. However, when compaired to those other lookalikes they do appear to produce more consistancey in their breeding. Here in the uk we've got all the different types of lookalikes. They all started off with the same foundation stock, but at various times people broke away from the founder clubs, set up their own, mixed different breeds into their lines, changed the name, and then again people from those new groups broke off taking their dogs and starting the process all over again. So at present we've got the: Northern inuit dog. Consisting of Siberian huskie, Alaskan malamute possibly, gsd, some random imported mixes from the USA of unknown parentage, some claim wolf or high content wolfdog, there was even a thought that they could have been mastiff added in as well. But basicly, people don't really know, and when you consider that the type is only around 20 years old, and one of the founder breeders is still very much living, you'd think there wouldn't be such confusion. Thats before we even get to the health problems, level of inbreeding, pedigrees that aren't worth the paper they're written on, lack of breeding ethics, etc etc. Basicly, its all one great big mess. British inuit dog/british wolfdog. Northern inuit with the addition of csv or swh. Timbre dog. As far as I'm aware, thats basicly anything that looks remotely wolf like in appearance. Utonagan. Northern inuit with the addition of collie, not sure if anything else was added. British utonagan. New break away group from the utonagan. Utonagan with the addition of the original founder breeds, siberian huskie, alaskan malamute, gsd, northern inuit, though they say they're not going to add collie again. They're also considering other breeds but don't know what they are, maybe bsd. Tamaskan. Don't suppose I need to explain that one. Aatu tamaskan. Refer to earlier post. Taz __________________ Never argue with idiots. they drag you down to their level, then beat you with experience.

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06-07-2010, 21:59	#2
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Legally, I don't think they are "lying" - in our own words, we promote CsVs as dogs. Technically, all dogs are descended from wolves. In the development of the breed, they have not used any wolves. So they can get away with it. There are other breeders who do similar - www.noblepawz.com You have to really pry to determine whether or not there is recent wolf in the "breed" as the breed creator sort of uses a lot of fast talk... The bottom line is that people are going to buy what they want, and demand is what moves the market.

06-07-2010, 22:16	#4
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Ahh. OK, well that's just downright stupid! You can't brag about whitefang in your foundation and say there are no wolves! ???

06-07-2010, 22:46	#6
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Sounds like Dutch Malinois...

08-07-2010, 17:23	#7
Joswolf Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 757	Sorry but Whiteang is Valco but is no wolf. This is a picture and everyone can see that its no wolf. http://public.bay.livefilestore.com/...1.jpg?download Jos

08-07-2010, 19:57	#10
Joswolf Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Posts: 757	yOU SAY, QOUTE-you cannot claim to have bred a wolfy-looking dog without using wolves and garner all the credit from that when that is not true. For example, you can't breed a GSD to a Malinois and then claim credit for creating a GSD looking dog without using GSD (and thereby perhaps bypassing all the of the various health problems in the GSD). That is simply untrue and can also be very harmful to collective 'breed' knowledge including temperamental differences, potential health including ............ This is simply dangerous and totally irresponsible First if Valco is no wolf they used no wolf when the breeder of Valco is Polarspeed. Then he was the one who breeded a wolf in a husky. But who can prove Valco comes from a wolf? You now Polarspeed or Yescoline couse then you now you cannot thrust his breeding and no one nows about what he does couse he simply doesnot tell anyone. Second i do not untherstand the isseu about potential health or dangerous please explain are wolves dangerous? And you do not need to explain me what a wolf looks like i have a polar wolf and Kapatian wolves and mixes and i now exactly what they look like. I also saw Tamaskan and the so called F2 and i find no signals that tell me it is a hybrid. At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect. Jos

08-07-2010, 20:12	#11
yukidomari Moderator Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Los Angeles CA Posts: 847	Yes, it would be the breeder at Polarspeed who bred Valko. Maybe we should DNA test Valko to the perspective sire? And secondly I have never said 'wolves are dangerous', simply that lying about their pedigree is. It is dangerous for a variety of reasons including legal reasons and health knowledge. If the pedigrees are not forthcoming about the types of dogs used, then it is harder to isolate potential health problems commonly known to all breeds. If it is indeed true, for example, that GSDs were used as a foundation to Tamaskans, then breeders should be wary about the potential of Degenerative Myelopathy, for one. Additionally, if a dog is not generations removed from wolf ancestry, it is illegal or requires a permit to own in many places and many countries. That is what is DANGEROUS. For both the dog and the owner, who can face the animal being confiscated, put down, fines, or otherwise. If Valko is a F1 wolfdog and Jodie at Blustag is his daughter, that would require a permit to own her. You said, "At the German meeting i found everyone happy with there Tamakan and no trouble like you would expect." I have never said that nobody was happy with their Tamaskan dogs or that they were somehow trouble prone?