ED - new rules

jasmine · 06-07-2010, 11:50

soooo there are some contradiction:
Admin wrote "After the club conference in Czech Republic in June the club decided that ONLY the ED-free dogs can be used for breeding."
Hanka wrote:"1.1.2011 will be in breeding only dogs with ED "A". But in this moment people voted against me. So result is: in years 2011 and 2012 will club watch ED results of all dogs and it will watch health situation in czech population. "

These two comments are not the same ! As I understand Hanka 's words right, the Ed result is still not obligated in Czeh Rep. for the breeding.

Edit

jefta · 06-07-2010, 12:27

As I understand Hanka's words only ED x-rayted dogs can be used for breeding but all results are acceptable

jasmine · 06-07-2010, 12:34

I think no, read the sentences : Hanka's vote was this: :"1.1.2011 will be in breeding only dogs with ED "A".
Klub reaction was this : "But in this moment people voted against me"
So , if I understand right, Hanka wanted that just the Ed free dogs can be used for breeding, but she hasn't got the subsidy from the klub.

Edit

Nebulosa · 07-07-2010, 17:21

If she talked ED: A Maybe they mistaken with HD, very different things.
ED is classified by numbers, so ED: 0-0 only.

But I hope people will not use this as excuse for not do the ED results or breed with ill dogs.
By the way, I agree with the club about first know the actual breed situation before make a rigorous selection.
If it is really spreaded, so they will need to plan about the usage of affected dogs with still acceptable results ( ED 1-1), like is done with Rottweilers or Labradors, well, if it happen at this point I think it will be a pretty sad scenario.

Hanka · 07-07-2010, 19:02

Of course ED 0-0. Numbers

After 1.1.2011 must have all breeding dogs in Czech ED result.
But this result can be 0 or 1 or 2..........
Two years later I will try it once again (on club conferention), only ED 0-0 dogs can be used for breeding.
I know in what families is ED problem, so I am worry two years later can be this problem in population bigger. I hope not so much.

Gypsy Wolf · 13-07-2010, 07:51

Though I think the decision is, in theory, an honorable one, hip dysplasia is a MULTI-FACTORIAL "illness" not simply genetic!
A dog that has excellent genetics could be raised with poor nutrition or in a poor environment (such as growing up in a small concrete kennel), or suffer a traumatic injury and develop disease symptoms. And then we are arbitrarily removing those genetics - that may be GOOD, and at the very least, maintain a diverse gene pool in a breed that already has a small gene pool!
We are likely "breeding ourselves into a corner" with such a decision.
I do not think we have enough information on the myriad genetics as well as outside influences that cause joint problems to remove so many dogs from our gene pool...
Truly, I would prefer that geneticists and veterinarians consult on such a decision... even speaking with Dr. Clemmons, here in FL, regarding the Degenerative Myelopathy test (which they developed), you do not necessarily want to remove the "Abnormal/Abnormal" dogs from your breeding program, if they have other traits that SHOULD be kept in the breed. "You don't want to throw away the baby with the bathwater" is what he told me. The test is there to make EDUCATED breeding decisions, that, in theory, can preserve the GOOD genetics and remove the bad ones through knowledge and selection.
I foresee us bottlenecking genetically and losing some really good traits if we concentrate on just joint issues... great idea to have good hips, but are we sacrificing type and more importantly, temperament and working ability?
I am certainly not promoting breeding dogs with bad hips as a regular thing, but think about this - you produce a pup that is genetically sound, joint-wise for generations, but he is injured as an adolescent... he has super working drive, solid character, perfect conformation - floating gait, you name it - your perfect pup... you x-ray him at 18 months, and that left hip is considered dysplastic from that injury he sustained as a youngster... what would you do? Or perhaps he was a pup that you sold and was returned back to you and is just AMAZING... but he was reared in a crate eating crap, so you x-ray him... get my drift?
Do we really have enough great vlcaks in the world to do that?

Nebulosa · 13-07-2010, 08:49

We're talking about elbows displasy, not the hips ones, they're completly different things and for what we could already see, this illness is in pretty different situation at the breed.
So far looks like we have an already considerable ammount of dogs tested coming from the most different lines, and most of these animals were free.

06-07-2010, 12:27	#2
jefta Call Me Sexy Srdcervac Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Wroclaw Posts: 1,233	As I understand Hanka's words only ED x-rayted dogs can be used for breeding but all results are acceptable __________________

07-07-2010, 17:21	#4
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	If she talked ED: A Maybe they mistaken with HD, very different things. ED is classified by numbers, so ED: 0-0 only. But I hope people will not use this as excuse for not do the ED results or breed with ill dogs. By the way, I agree with the club about first know the actual breed situation before make a rigorous selection. If it is really spreaded, so they will need to plan about the usage of affected dogs with still acceptable results ( ED 1-1), like is done with Rottweilers or Labradors, well, if it happen at this point I think it will be a pretty sad scenario. __________________

13-07-2010, 08:49	#7
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	We're talking about elbows displasy, not the hips ones, they're completly different things and for what we could already see, this illness is in pretty different situation at the breed. So far looks like we have an already considerable ammount of dogs tested coming from the most different lines, and most of these animals were free. __________________

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06-07-2010, 11:50	#1
jasmine Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 188	soooo there are some contradiction: Admin wrote "After the club conference in Czech Republic in June the club decided that ONLY the ED-free dogs can be used for breeding." Hanka wrote:"1.1.2011 will be in breeding only dogs with ED "A". But in this moment people voted against me. So result is: in years 2011 and 2012 will club watch ED results of all dogs and it will watch health situation in czech population. " These two comments are not the same ! As I understand Hanka 's words right, the Ed result is still not obligated in Czeh Rep. for the breeding. Edit

06-07-2010, 12:34	#3
jasmine Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 188	I think no, read the sentences : Hanka's vote was this: :"1.1.2011 will be in breeding only dogs with ED "A". Klub reaction was this : "But in this moment people voted against me" So , if I understand right, Hanka wanted that just the Ed free dogs can be used for breeding, but she hasn't got the subsidy from the klub. Edit

07-07-2010, 19:02	#5
Hanka Senior Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Kadaň Posts: 1,622	Of course ED 0-0. Numbers After 1.1.2011 must have all breeding dogs in Czech ED result. But this result can be 0 or 1 or 2.......... Two years later I will try it once again (on club conferention), only ED 0-0 dogs can be used for breeding. I know in what families is ED problem, so I am worry two years later can be this problem in population bigger. I hope not so much.

13-07-2010, 07:51	#6
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Though I think the decision is, in theory, an honorable one, hip dysplasia is a MULTI-FACTORIAL "illness" not simply genetic! A dog that has excellent genetics could be raised with poor nutrition or in a poor environment (such as growing up in a small concrete kennel), or suffer a traumatic injury and develop disease symptoms. And then we are arbitrarily removing those genetics - that may be GOOD, and at the very least, maintain a diverse gene pool in a breed that already has a small gene pool! We are likely "breeding ourselves into a corner" with such a decision. I do not think we have enough information on the myriad genetics as well as outside influences that cause joint problems to remove so many dogs from our gene pool... Truly, I would prefer that geneticists and veterinarians consult on such a decision... even speaking with Dr. Clemmons, here in FL, regarding the Degenerative Myelopathy test (which they developed), you do not necessarily want to remove the "Abnormal/Abnormal" dogs from your breeding program, if they have other traits that SHOULD be kept in the breed. "You don't want to throw away the baby with the bathwater" is what he told me. The test is there to make EDUCATED breeding decisions, that, in theory, can preserve the GOOD genetics and remove the bad ones through knowledge and selection. I foresee us bottlenecking genetically and losing some really good traits if we concentrate on just joint issues... great idea to have good hips, but are we sacrificing type and more importantly, temperament and working ability? I am certainly not promoting breeding dogs with bad hips as a regular thing, but think about this - you produce a pup that is genetically sound, joint-wise for generations, but he is injured as an adolescent... he has super working drive, solid character, perfect conformation - floating gait, you name it - your perfect pup... you x-ray him at 18 months, and that left hip is considered dysplastic from that injury he sustained as a youngster... what would you do? Or perhaps he was a pup that you sold and was returned back to you and is just AMAZING... but he was reared in a crate eating crap, so you x-ray him... get my drift? Do we really have enough great vlcaks in the world to do that?