Forming a breed club in the US

Gypsy Wolf · 10-04-2010, 14:58

Hmmm, well it seems some of the information out there is wrong, if they were primarily bred for "tracking" according to the recent post, however, regardless of whether their primary function was tracking, I cannot believe that a Border Patrol dog was not expected to grip. A main function of most, if not all, Border Patrol dogs is to grip, so a minimum foundation of bitework is necessary. Why else would the CsV breeding program weed out unsuitable character? Any dog can track if it has a nose.
As to the above posts, yes, I think being a pet is not a bad thing, but in ANY litter there are "pet" puppies, so why breed just for that? Max von Stephanitz must be rolling in his grave at the state of the American GSD. I have been in SchH for 17 years and have yet to see an American bred dog in the sport. I also know of no American dogs that serve in police or military functions. Very sad, as we tout ourselves as producing the "best of the best"...
I agree that there will likely always be a difference between dogs bred for show and those for work, but by requiring both working and conformation titles, we can narrow down that division quite a bit.
Since we still have guidance from the founder of the breed, I feel strongly that we should institute rules to keep the standards of the breed high - so we don't go through the same pitfalls that other breeds before have (did you know that the single "reason" that the American GSDs look and act the way they do is due to CH. Lance of Fran-Jo?) with giving up "drive" for "easy in the house" or "popular stud" pedigree bottlenecking (you see that in West German Highlines with Uran v Wildsteigerland). If someone wants a good "pet" they can get a different breed. I don't want to see the CsV turn into a collie... no offense intended - I actually have a collie.

Pavel · 10-04-2010, 20:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Hmmm, well it seems some of the information out there is wrong, if they were primarily bred for "tracking" according to the recent post, however, regardless of whether their primary function was tracking, I cannot believe that a Border Patrol dog was not expected to grip. A main function of most, if not all, Border Patrol dogs is to grip, so a minimum foundation of bitework is necessary. Why else would the CsV breeding program weed out unsuitable character? Any dog can track if it has a nose.

Maybe will be not bad, if you read some books about situation in Czechoslovakia in years after year 1948. First was practically no dogs needed (its not true 100%, but simply say), because around the western border was high voltage fence. After them was signal wall, but not so, like imagine many people "on west". Mostly was signal wall hounderts up to kilometers before real border line. On some places was kilometres before realy borders made from state police a false border, because people without maps (owned or drawing detail maps of border region was a heavy crime) think, that are just on german or austrian territory and dont hide self more (easy prey for border police). Border police dont need, like in democratic country, on border people catching and arresting. On western border was 1-3 times (I dont right now not exactly rules, because they was changing in the time) call up to stops and then was normally to set gun and shooting. Specially in the years, when starting the experiment with crossing GDS and wolves, get every soldier, which kill the man on border, special reward. Dog was in this years only secondary tool for stoping. Dog was primary for tracing.

Gypsy Wolf · 10-04-2010, 20:45

I didn't mean to disparage anyone - I have been training dogs and "in dogs" for 17 years now. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but American breeders are well-known for "watering down" working breeds to make them better pets. I don't think that is necessarily in the best interests of the breed. If you love a Malinois, for instance, you take into consideration it is an aggressive breed by nature - if you don't like that, get something else! Don't ruin the working drive because it is more difficult to live with for the Average Joe. That's what worries me about the Vlcak in the United States.
I love Dobes, GSDs, Belgian Shepherds - and it breaks my heart to see what has happened via American Breeders. What happened to the dog that was supposed to be a natural "manstopper"??? Are the Dobe folks really proud of what they've created? I am using the breed just as an example - no offense intended. But really, if you want to get a Dobe or GSD that can "stop a man" you DON'T look at American-line dogs - you go overseas. Pathetic that our police and military have to go the Europe to find dogs that can work... that's what I DON'T want to happen to the Vlcak.

yukidomari · 10-04-2010, 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lunas Mom

Are the Dobe folks really proud of what they've created?

Actually, for the most part, yes. You would not believe how much bad press, bad rep, and what not that has threatened the Dobe. Back in the day Dobes were today's Pittie, and you see the same type of movement of responsible APBTs today, too.. breeding for a more even temperament, less reactive, less dog aggressive. Do *I* agree? Not sure where I stand on that, actually.

And actually, if you think about it, all dogs except those few bred expressly for companionship (and even then, a large number of the littles were ratters) all have a job. Just because almost of today's Rough Collies and Retriever types have been relegated to companionship/family dogs only means that their direction as a breed has gone away from work - not that they were always there from the start.

Again, the whole Europe vs. US divide - should always be kept in mind that Europe has every bit as many poorly bred dogs as anywhere else. Has every bit as many 'working kennels' looking to make a buck, and also lots of kennels willing to ship inferior dogs overseas. Good breeders are good breeders, no matter where they are. And a dog born in Germany is not any 'better' solely based on that.. it can all only be attributed to the individual breeders and breed club that stands behind them.

10-04-2010, 21:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by yukidomari

And actually, if you think about it, all dogs except those few bred expressly for companionship (and even then, a large number of the littles were ratters) all have a job. Just because almost of today's Rough Collies and Retriever types have been relegated to companionship/family dogs only means that their direction as a breed has gone away from work - not that they were always there from the start.

Isn't this the whole point everyone's trying to make? Don't repeat history! These breeds are being brought up as an example of how real, functional, working dogs have been watered down to the point where they're just soft companion animals with different looks for different tastes. There are plenty of breeds out there that we don't need to turn the CsV into "another pretty face." Divisions in a breed are NOT inevitable if we stop it in its tracks! Just because it happens and it's the norm, it does NOT mean it has to be tolerated!!

I just want to clarify that when I said breeding needs to be open to interpretation (regarding rules of a breed club) I meant in more subtle ways of testing a dog's working character, I don't in any way mean that a breeder could go & say, "Eh, I want my dogs to be more calm & easy to manage, to make great pets!" when the dog should not in any way have that sort of temperament. The whole point of purebred dogs should be breed preservation, which means holding to and testing correct temperament. When a breeder strives to develop their line, it's to come as close as possible to their vision of the breed standard, not to bastardize it. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but it's how I feel on the subject.

yukidomari · 10-04-2010, 21:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vicky

Isn't this the whole point everyone's trying to make? Don't repeat history! These breeds are being brought up as an example of how real, functional, working dogs have been watered down to the point where they're just soft companion animals with different looks for different tastes. There are plenty of breeds out there that we don't need to turn the CsV into "another pretty face." Divisions in a breed are NOT inevitable if we stop it in its tracks! Just because it happens and it's the norm, it does NOT mean it has to be tolerated!!

I'll agree to disagree then.

My pet Dobe is not the same as my pet Minpin, who simply 'looks different' than one another.

Surely, they are not working dogs nor are they from working lines, but they have characters though not working drive of their forebears.

I am NOT advocating turning the CSV into a soft companion breed..

Just merely musing.

GalomyOak · 10-04-2010, 21:48

My opinion, for what it's worth...

I absolutely want to see this breed move forward with working goals in mind. But as Nebulosa pointed out, we are not in a place - as a breed - in Europe, and certainly not in the US, to discredit dogs if they don't have titles. The breed doesn't have enough genetic diversity to withstand that kind of pressure on selection at this point. I think it is a very noble goal for the breed/club to reach for one day - and of course there should be controls on breeding with dogs with good health, and no disqualifying features - especially in structure and temperament. I think a breeding commission is an excellent idea.

A few misconceptions about AKC tracking. First off, tracking (ground) and trailing (air) are totally different scent theories - trailing is used in SAR, and typically has a quicker and more efficient accuracy. Tracking trials are completely blind - the flags are only used in training. It's an excellent sport, my CSVs have very deep noses and deviate from the track very little in comparison to many of the other dogs out there (Goldens, GSD, Weimeraner). Don't think it should be used as a sole qualifier of a breedable dog...

Won't get into American v. Europe. I know good and bad breeders of all mentioned breeds in both places. I have an American bred GSD from heavy Swiss and German lines, with Lord vom Gleisd... featured recently. Love her to death, makes me crazy to work with her.

I am glad these discussions are happening - even if they are uncomfortable. It's important! I think it's also important to keep in mind that ALL of our experiences in the US with the breed are limited - I know my perceptions certainly changed after my visit to Europe last spring where I met many dogs and breeders - important to remember there is still quite a bit of variation within the breed, not everyone's experiences will be the same.

Marcy

soniakanavle · 11-04-2010, 03:17

Yukidomari, I think maybe you should look into getting a different breed, it doesn't sound like what you're looking for is a CsV.

yukidomari · 11-04-2010, 05:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by soniakanavle

Yukidomari, I think maybe you should look into getting a different breed, it doesn't sound like what you're looking for is a CsV.

Thanks for your opinion, Soniakanavle.

Gypsy Wolf · 11-04-2010, 22:11

OK, so my question to the American Dobie, GSD, etc. folks is this: If they truly love the breed, why did they change it so it no longer behaves as it was designed to? Just because they liked it's looks and not it's character? In that case, are they really stewards of the breed with it's best interests at heart?
Removing aggression/sharpness from a breed designed to be a "man-stopper" just because of "bad press"? THAT'S THE BREED. If you can't handle the temperament, get another breed - don't turn it into dishwater!
If you go to Jimmy Moses' Kaleef GSD site, he guarantees excellent "show" dogs... GSDs were designed to be WORKING DOGS. Turning them into a pretty sidegait with no working ability is reprehensible! How dare they say they "love the breed"?

10-04-2010, 21:48	#7
GalomyOak Howling Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Colorado Posts: 436	My opinion, for what it's worth... I absolutely want to see this breed move forward with working goals in mind. But as Nebulosa pointed out, we are not in a place - as a breed - in Europe, and certainly not in the US, to discredit dogs if they don't have titles. The breed doesn't have enough genetic diversity to withstand that kind of pressure on selection at this point. I think it is a very noble goal for the breed/club to reach for one day - and of course there should be controls on breeding with dogs with good health, and no disqualifying features - especially in structure and temperament. I think a breeding commission is an excellent idea. A few misconceptions about AKC tracking. First off, tracking (ground) and trailing (air) are totally different scent theories - trailing is used in SAR, and typically has a quicker and more efficient accuracy. Tracking trials are completely blind - the flags are only used in training. It's an excellent sport, my CSVs have very deep noses and deviate from the track very little in comparison to many of the other dogs out there (Goldens, GSD, Weimeraner). Don't think it should be used as a sole qualifier of a breedable dog... Won't get into American v. Europe. I know good and bad breeders of all mentioned breeds in both places. I have an American bred GSD from heavy Swiss and German lines, with Lord vom Gleisd... featured recently. Love her to death, makes me crazy to work with her. I am glad these discussions are happening - even if they are uncomfortable. It's important! I think it's also important to keep in mind that ALL of our experiences in the US with the breed are limited - I know my perceptions certainly changed after my visit to Europe last spring where I met many dogs and breeders - important to remember there is still quite a bit of variation within the breed, not everyone's experiences will be the same. Marcy __________________ "What lies behind us and what lies ahead of us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us."~Henry David Thoreau http://www.galomyoak.com

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10-04-2010, 14:58	#1
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	Hmmm, well it seems some of the information out there is wrong, if they were primarily bred for "tracking" according to the recent post, however, regardless of whether their primary function was tracking, I cannot believe that a Border Patrol dog was not expected to grip. A main function of most, if not all, Border Patrol dogs is to grip, so a minimum foundation of bitework is necessary. Why else would the CsV breeding program weed out unsuitable character? Any dog can track if it has a nose. As to the above posts, yes, I think being a pet is not a bad thing, but in ANY litter there are "pet" puppies, so why breed just for that? Max von Stephanitz must be rolling in his grave at the state of the American GSD. I have been in SchH for 17 years and have yet to see an American bred dog in the sport. I also know of no American dogs that serve in police or military functions. Very sad, as we tout ourselves as producing the "best of the best"... I agree that there will likely always be a difference between dogs bred for show and those for work, but by requiring both working and conformation titles, we can narrow down that division quite a bit. Since we still have guidance from the founder of the breed, I feel strongly that we should institute rules to keep the standards of the breed high - so we don't go through the same pitfalls that other breeds before have (did you know that the single "reason" that the American GSDs look and act the way they do is due to CH. Lance of Fran-Jo?) with giving up "drive" for "easy in the house" or "popular stud" pedigree bottlenecking (you see that in West German Highlines with Uran v Wildsteigerland). If someone wants a good "pet" they can get a different breed. I don't want to see the CsV turn into a collie... no offense intended - I actually have a collie.

10-04-2010, 20:45	#3
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	I didn't mean to disparage anyone - I have been training dogs and "in dogs" for 17 years now. There are certainly exceptions to the rule, but American breeders are well-known for "watering down" working breeds to make them better pets. I don't think that is necessarily in the best interests of the breed. If you love a Malinois, for instance, you take into consideration it is an aggressive breed by nature - if you don't like that, get something else! Don't ruin the working drive because it is more difficult to live with for the Average Joe. That's what worries me about the Vlcak in the United States. I love Dobes, GSDs, Belgian Shepherds - and it breaks my heart to see what has happened via American Breeders. What happened to the dog that was supposed to be a natural "manstopper"??? Are the Dobe folks really proud of what they've created? I am using the breed just as an example - no offense intended. But really, if you want to get a Dobe or GSD that can "stop a man" you DON'T look at American-line dogs - you go overseas. Pathetic that our police and military have to go the Europe to find dogs that can work... that's what I DON'T want to happen to the Vlcak.

11-04-2010, 03:17	#8
soniakanavle Junior Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Blanco, Texas Posts: 81	Yukidomari, I think maybe you should look into getting a different breed, it doesn't sound like what you're looking for is a CsV.

11-04-2010, 22:11	#10
Gypsy Wolf Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Florida & Minnesota U.S. Posts: 252	OK, so my question to the American Dobie, GSD, etc. folks is this: If they truly love the breed, why did they change it so it no longer behaves as it was designed to? Just because they liked it's looks and not it's character? In that case, are they really stewards of the breed with it's best interests at heart? Removing aggression/sharpness from a breed designed to be a "man-stopper" just because of "bad press"? THAT'S THE BREED. If you can't handle the temperament, get another breed - don't turn it into dishwater! If you go to Jimmy Moses' Kaleef GSD site, he guarantees excellent "show" dogs... GSDs were designed to be WORKING DOGS. Turning them into a pretty sidegait with no working ability is reprehensible! How dare they say they "love the breed"?