Information about the list of the stud

[Ricky's Wolf]

Hello,
I'm still waiting for an answer from the persons responsible of the site.

[Juniorwolf]

Ciao Riccardo,

This is ONLY a private website and owners can do what ever they like, not that I agree with this example, but when websites are private(even if it seems to be an official and objective website), it is almost impossible not to make their own politic and personal dislikes influence the shaping of their website which in my opinion is a shame for this site as it in many other aspects seems to be equal for all.

I know for example that Czech breedingcommitee(still waiting for answer from Slovak breedingcommitee) have no problems with Italian, Slovak, German, Poland, etc. bonitations or HD/ED results, ONLY the owners here on this private site choose to make it a problem

Too bad that new owners and people who don`t seek answers elsewere(official sources), will actually belive all what is written here is facts.

Greetings Rolf

[massimo]

Originally Posted by massimo

What is written here is very interesting and new to me.
If this is the decision of the administration of Wolfdog.org, let it be (i'm not sooo much against it actually)
But, I kindly ask the Admin if it's possible to write, for more and better knowledge of the viewers, the criteria used to make the list and what makes you be excluded.
Also... could the Admin kindly state if ALL the dogs included in the list have HD results sent to Wolfdog.org (as always requested in the past?) or just ... announced by email from the owner.
Thanks
Massimo

Please can somebody answer to my question?

[Navarre]

I still saw too many "stud" dogs that are in the database absolutely WITHOUT ED results !

This is really unfair. We should think that No result is a bad result..
I m not a great fan of parents of Voice, but i agree with rolf and riccardo, this new politic seems very strange and unfair and seems to reward only who hide the results.

Please don't hide behind the rules of each country, as in Italy there isnt any requisite, even hd D x hd E can have pedigree...if we make hd and ed is only for our sense of responsabilkty.

So I please the new Admin to remove me asmoderator of italian forum, because I really dont agree with this new "administration"

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Navarre

I still saw too many "stud" dogs that are in the database absolutely WITHOUT ED results !

"

I absolutely recommend ED x-rays and our own younger dogs are all ED-controlled. But our older dogs aren´t. The reason is simply that ED was an unknown problem of this breed when they were x-rayed and I see no sense in doing it on an older dog that never had any problem and has only free offspring. So when we ask for ED-results we should remember that some dogs are not x-rayed out of the same reasons and simply look on the results of their offspring.

Ina

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by rolf

Was this not the reason why Admin made this step, to remove all dogs with ED ? ...aparrently it is for no reason, unless all dogs with HD is removed too !

They can be what they want, BUT to be honest there should be some REQUIREMENTS that are the same for all, not changing anytime.

If the requirement (right or wrong) to be in the stud list is the ED 0 exam, every dog without this exam should be removed together with dogs that don't fulfill this requirement.

[Ricky's Wolf]

Hi Admin and thanks for the answers.
Would it be interesting for all of us to also know your name, don't I think that he is a true secret?
If is possible.....

I am not interested in to speak anymore of genetic HD or ED.
We will See in the future if your theory is exact.
It doesn't interest in me anymore to know where you study your theories.

Originally Posted by Admin

Other lines are CLEAR.
..

You owe, kindly, to explain to me as does to know with certainty this thing if so many so many reproducing dogs of the list don't have the official plates ED

Originally Posted by Admin

So my question to rolf and Runningwolf:

ARE YOU ALSO FO BREEDING DOGS WITH HEART PROBLEMS, EPILEPSY, and STRONG HD (HD-D and HD-E)?

you must excuse me but your question it doesn't deserve answer.

I repeat : why have not they been removed by the list all the dogs that don't have the official plates of the elbows?
I hope that this time you will respond to this question.
The site to remain a transparent and believable site, since there are these new rules, he must be impartial and correct with everybody. he Owes Therefore to Remove The Dogs That don't Have The Official Plates Of the Elbows, Stings.

question to Admin: if I had not made ufficial the plates of the Elbows of Voice and I had sent only to you the plates HD with result To, would Voice still be in the list of the reproducers?

[jmvdwiel]

I agree with some of the questions asked on the forum, why only remove the dogs with not so good ED results, and leave all the dogs on the list with NO ED resuts ?
How I see this is that you punish the people who made the ED plates and you are giving a privilage to the people that don't make the ED plates.

for example: in Holland you don't need to make the ED plates to get a pedigree for the puppies, Yes HD results is needed, but also with HD C you can breed your dog with a HDA dog

So Why is wolfdog stricter than some breeding clubs and official authorities ? I think that people can make their own disision to want a puppy yes or no from a litter anouncement on this forum.

I love the wolfdog.org site for their litter anouncement, but I think i can make a good choice for myself If I want a puppy from a certain litter.

[admin]

Originally Posted by jmvdwiel

I agree with some of the questions asked on the forum, why only remove the dogs with not so good ED results, and leave all the dogs on the list with NO ED resuts ?

No - the rules is different: we remove all ILL dogs from the list. So on the stud dog list you can not find dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, PRA and ED.

The problem was: the breeders (owners of ill dogs) DO NOT INFORM the puppy owners and other breeders interested in the dogs as stud dogs that the dogs have the problem. We already received complains from breeders who covered their females and they accuse US of "advertising" of ill dogs. As you can see there are different parties: here you can see one (real family: rolf, massimo - check the database and you will see why they keep toghether). But we receive also messages from the other type of breeders.

We know that many breeders do not check the heart, eyes, or ED. We know some breeders cheat with the HD results. And we know there will be still some dogs who are ill but not "uncovered". But it do not change one thing - dog with diagnosed illness is an ill dog.

[massimo]

Originally Posted by Admin

As you can see there are different parties: here you can see one (real family: rolf, massimo - check the database and you will see why they keep toghether). But we receive also messages from the other type of breeders.

Instead of admitting a mistake you are mentioning family.
This is RIDICULOUS, until I know the identity of ADMIN i will NOT consider this user as reliable in any way, sorry.
My only family is the one I live with, Rolf is just a friend, as I have many many friends who I often do not agree with. But maybe this is too complicated for you to understand.

Anyway...try to think, from the top of your ADMIN position...
If a dog with declared but not proven ED 0 goes on the stud list and a dog with proven ED0/1 doesn't.... it's automatic that you are PUSHING people NOT to declare bad elbows... as many other may be in the stud list.

By the way, i am NOT against taking away ill dogs from studlist, so you see i do not agree with Rolf. I am just against putting dogs with UNPROVEN health in studlist.

Last thing... this new administration is slowly pushing away members who have always contributed and helped this site, with info, pics etc.
If that is your choice...free to do it. But wolfdog.org has worked until now ALSO thanks to those who helped build it up for free...

[Navarre]

I don't understand how is possible to make statistics with ED and declare a family responsible of it, if there are so small data to compare !
Czech dogs don't have ED results, Slovakian too, Germany France and Poland so and so.
The main data for statistics is only from italian dogs...so what ?

Please, for WD to remain an affordable website about wolfdogs, we NEED some RULES that are the same for ALL.


p.s
I'm not "familiar" of Massimo in any way, but I agree with him 100% and so many users and owners of italian forum.

[Navarre]

Rolf please, stop "fighting" about ED classification...we need an answer to only a simple question repeated so many times, but that can be formulated in another way :

WD encourages breeders not to make the ED x-rays ? Yes, because the message sent is : don't do ED, don't do PRA, don't do bonitation, don't do anything than HD and your dog could be a super reproducer...

[ste]

Nebulosa you have seen the problem, we are not talking about Ed, if it's or not a genetic matter, we are speaking about the stud dog list and the rules...
When there was similas discussion about HD, Margot asked the evidence of the HD result, you send?You are in the list, you don't send?You're out!
This is an hard lex but it's clear. (dura lex sed lex...)You propose another way...ok, we can speak about this..
But This ADMIN refuse to speak about this matter!
He delete dog from the list, (only the italian one?) without an explanation, without a notice to the owner of the dog...
It seems the revenge of a child....not the actions of a man (or woman) who loves the breed....
I'm nothing, just an owner...but I'm really disappointed...
For me wolfdog.org was a lighthouse between the interests of the big breeder...but now?Now seems just one breeder like the others...

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

As we have at moment few cases of ED problems in the breed, as those dogs mainly don't comes from "rare" lines, not have why preserve ED in breeding spreading the problem in a breed that have a small genetic pool.

Paula, at the moment we have too few cases of x-rayed wolfdogs and most of them( ED x-rayed) are from Italy.
In our country no requisite is requested to breed, but many owner and serious breeder do ED test since 2001..as I can remember !

Again, as Stefano said, all italian stud dogs with HD-C (apart one, forgotten!) were removed from stud list too but in other country this is not happened. HD-C is not good anymore? Or some HD-C are more HD-C than others ?
Of course there are many (too many?) stud dogs in Italy, but our country is the most big producer of csw in the World, so this should be normal.
-----

I think we will miss the administration of Margo...may be after years, but she replies everytime to everybody on every question.

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by Runningwolf

would Voice still be in the list of the reproducers?

Of course !

The problem is very simple : why dogs without ED are in the list ? Are they ALL good ? Sure ?

Sure you don't know !

I think this is a big mistake for WD and there is no weakness into recognize and correct mistakes.
So please do the right thing and clear off the list the most (all?) of Czech and Slovakian studs...or put again into it the poor Voice.

[Navarre]

Again...the Italian stud dogs with HD-C are removed from list.

Ok.

But...in all other country dogs with HD-C are still in the stud list
I don't think a polish or german or czech o slovak HD-C is far better than an italian dog HD-C.

Don't mind, that here in Italy is "someone" has good friends in right places, his ill dog will be HD-A or B, not C.
Dogs "C" or worser are "C" for sure (or better!)...as in other country.

[Jal]

to answer only a noisy silence ...?

[starjumper]

To be honest I don't care if you think that ED 1 is worse than HD C, I don't think that THAT is the real problem.

The problem is that you encourage breeders to hide ED results... from a breeder's point of view, Riccardo has been unnecessarily honest. Foolishly honest... because he sent the result and "your" honest breeders don't even make the x-rays.
But Italians are the cheaters, don't they?

The only opinion I would like to read is the one you should write as an answer to THIS question:

Originally Posted by Navarre

The problem is very simple : why dogs without ED are in the list ? Are they ALL good ? Sure ?

[Ricky's Wolf]

I keep on not seeing the answers to the questions that I have done to ADMIN.
If this is democracy tell you him you.
A site of information must Be Correct it is Democratic, even if it is a private site.
I repeat the questions so all can read her:

Originally Posted by Runningwolf

Hi Admin and thanks for the answers.
Would it be interesting for all of us to also know your name, don't I think that he is a true secret?

?????

Originally Posted by Runningwolf

You owe, kindly, to explain to me as does to know with certainty this thing if so many so many reproducing dogs of the list don't have the official plates ED

????????

Originally Posted by Runningwolf

I repeat : why have not they been removed by the list all the dogs that don't have the official plates of the elbows?
I hope that this time you will respond to this question.

????????

Originally Posted by Runningwolf

question to Admin: if I had not made ufficial the plates of the Elbows of Voice and I had sent only to you the plates HD with result To, would Voice still be in the list of the reproducers?

????????

Originally Posted by Admin

No - the rules is different: we remove all ILL dogs from the list. So on the stud dog list you can not find dogs with heart problems, epilepsy, PRA and ED.

through which certification on the page of a dog he succeeds in knowing that the dog doesn't have problems of epilepsy or problems of heart?
You as you show that a dog doesn't have problems of heart or epilepsy?

Originally Posted by Admin

The problem was: the breeders (owners of ill dogs) DO NOT INFORM the puppy owners and other breeders interested in the dogs as stud dogs that the dogs have the problem. We already received complains from breeders who covered their females and they accuse US of "advertising" of ill dogs.

it is all right, every owner / breeder can be different from another for pure good sense and desire to work well. But if you don't remove all the dogs without the plates of the elbows don't have kept on making publicity to dogs that thing can be sick is it this incoherence?

it is really this the thing that I don't understand and that I find unfair. You have established some criterions (without informing all the person of this site, before wrong thing) according to me wrong but that I must accept and them accept.
But the criterions must Be Equal For Everybody.
You paint (your give answers) you to you as a site that is trying to give correct information on the health of a dog that is able' to reproduce. Ok, but in reality all of this' it is false because the health of the elbows of as dogs of the list of reproduction is not known.
WHY?'
Why do you want to appear as good informants on the health of the dogs and then not Dates the information but do you remove only who seems you??????
why?