Italian bonitations

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by elf

It's false that one cannot learn a lot about an adult dog character with test less than 45min. It's false that you can learn/condition all to a dog for test character, sensorial homeostatsis ability is not "learnable".

I see don`t where it is written that 45min. is minimum ? But I agree that 3-5min. is not enough to make a complete character test, but the TIME is not the main issue, the main issue is HOW the test is performed

Greetings Rolf

[Nebulosa]

Well, t'ill now we talk only about the character tests differences in Italian Bonitation, but I remember about problems with the notes for dogs with wrong index, that if not deceifme was one of the others problems envolved with Italian Bonitation.
Character test itself have differences between Czech republic and Slovak, only that won't discredit a bonitation like we can see in italian ones.
Maybe, italian people can explain it better.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Well, t'ill now we talk only about the character tests differences in Italian Bonitation, but I remember about problems with the notes for dogs with wrong index, that if not deceifme was one of the others problems envolved with Italian Bonitation.

I did not hear/read about this in the Italian bonitation, but it is apparently like this in the CZ and SK bonitation according to Margo(see the quote below).

Originally Posted by Margo

Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Character test itself have differences between Czech republic and Slovak, only that won't discredit a bonitation like we can see in italian ones.
Maybe, italian people can explain it better.

I personally don`t think one difference is worser than another, Cz and Sk bonitations ARE different, in Cz all "normal" dogs get the code R1 and as far as I understand Sk only give this code to dogs who are more than normal dry types, then there is the difference with 1cm too little in height and also the difference with index, so in Italy they have a difference in "character test"(which discredit the bonitation) and in Cz and Sk they have a difference in how to write codes(which discredit the bonitation) ....is one better or worser than the other ? I think not

Greetings Rolf

[Navarre]

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.
I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!)

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Navarre

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.

This make no sense to me ? when you say "almost the same" this is your opinion and not a fact, another opinion could be that they are different, because they are ONLY "almost the same".

Originally Posted by Navarre

I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

One could easily say the same about Cz and Sk, it isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different interpretations.

Originally Posted by Navarre

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!)

When you make such a big number out of what is facts, then please make sure what you write really is facts ! as far as I can read, there was 17 dogs at last bonitation made by "so-called" Italien breed club and at the last 3 bonitations before that, there were 16, 12 and 12 ...I only see 1 bonitation made by you and friends with help from Czech club with 41 dogs, but jumping to this conclution on such a small basis that you write here, is really not objective ! ...please correct me if I am wrong

Originally Posted by Navarre

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.

This thread is NOT about Miky Passo del Lupo !!!
I have seen more of you writing about this dog in this thread, please stop it ! ...even that I am very happy for your input, it is not very constructive to write about this dog and brings no light to the subject which is Italian bonitations.

Please keep an open mind

Greetings Rolf

[Navarre]

Originally Posted by rolf

when you say "almost the same" this is your opinion and not a fact, another opinion could be that they are different, because they are ONLY "almost the same".

OK.Czechs and slovaks have the same rules, italians not.

Originally Posted by rolf

.please correct me if I am wrong

Didn't you ask WHY we should organize (and lose money and time for this) a bonitace ourself when there is a national club for this ?
Did you ask yourself why a bonitace organized in this way rescued so a big success ?
Some dogs that make our bonitace, after some times made italian bonitace because the so-called italian club didn't recognized anymore the slovak and czech bonitaces from the day before the bonitace in Pavia !!!!

So I think all is very clear : italian didn't recognize czech and slovak bonitace and vice-versa.

Originally Posted by rolf

This thread is NOT about Miky Passo del Lupo !!!

I agree. I don't know why hannadina talk about this dog some messages ago...

Originally Posted by rolf

Please keep an open mind

Oh, I try every time.
But the same to you, especially when you talk about things that don't...know so well.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Navarre

OK.Czechs and slovaks have the same rules, italians not.

Rules or no rules, NON of these 3 countries(at the moment) do make exactly the same bonitations and this is my point I think Italian bonitation have the same rules as others, but they just don`t perform it in the same way, just like Cz and Sk don`t perform the bonitation in the same way. If you look at earlier posts and also in the thread(differences in bonitations) you will see that Cz and Sk do not value the same in the bonitation and I will repeat my self : Is one difference worser or better than another ? as long as they are not all the same in ALL countries, they are really not compareble. Another of my points is that the character test which they perform differently in Italy, is really worth nothing in ALL 3 countries for a character test, so I don`t see the Italian difference as a big fault who should make Cz and Sk not to recognize the bonitation.

Originally Posted by Navarre

Didn't you ask WHY we should organize (and lose money and time for this) a bonitace ourself when there is a national club for this ?

No I didn`t ask, but I will try to answer anyway ! if you already have a national club for this, then why not use it ? I guess(because I don`t know) that your club is democratic, like the rest of Italy, so why not use your influence as a democratic member(if you are member of this club) to change the way of bonitation, if you have so strong back up from many other members that you stated in an earlier post, it really should be no problem ? or am I missing something ?

Originally Posted by Navarre

Did you ask yourself why a bonitace organized in this way rescued so a big success ?

No ! the size of succes is not interesting for me, what is interesting for me is why the Italian bonitation is not recognized by Cz and Sk, apparently the only difference is in the way of how the character test is performed, when this test is already very close to be woth nothing in Cz and Sk anyway and not even the the Cz and Sk bonitations is performed in exactly the same way, then I really don`t see what all this fuzz is about ?

Originally Posted by Navarre

Some dogs that make our bonitace, after some times made italian bonitace because the so-called italian club didn't recognized anymore the slovak and czech bonitaces from the day before the bonitace in Pavia !!!!

This is why I think it is more importent to work together than to work against eachother.

Originally Posted by Navarre

So I think all is very clear : italian didn't recognize czech and slovak bonitace and vice-versa.

This is a shame for the whole breed, only with cooperation from all parts we can compare the results and I think it is sad if Cz and Sk do not recognize the Italian bonitation and vice-versa, both parts will loose a lot of breeding options in this way, which are not good for a breed with a small genepool.

Originally Posted by Navarre

Oh, I try every time.
But the same to you, especially when you talk about things that don't...know so well.

I surly do keep an open mind, that is why I ask these questions and try not to state facts who really are not facts
I ask these questions only to get more wise on a subject that I really do not understand.

Greetings Rolf