Italian bonitations

[hanninadina]

It is really really true what you did write Rolf. I don´t understand why people around Margo made that big problem. You had seen german bonitation done by Sona Bogorova. I like her very much. She is a real kind person. But, I cannot understand that she puts real shy dogs with Oc on P1. It were two out of the C litter Zlata Platz. The dogs were real scared. And coming back to main problem. The character test was 3 minutes, 4 minutes. It is nothing!!!

I had to pass character with my briard boy in german club cfh. It needed about 45 minutes for each dog! And not 3 minutes. We had that dog problem from 2000 because pit bull bited a 6 year old boy to death in hamburg. And from that point on we had list for dogs who were not allowed to breed or to bring in into germany. And at that point list dogs had to pass character test. And the briard club test was legaly like from the state character test. But in comparison to character test what is been done in bonitation, it is nothing. So, we all know that the results from italian bonitation were put out of the database since Margo was sure that the Mutaras were brought in the breed. She declares that it is because the italian test is not to compare with czech or slovakian test. But what for? These test are too nothing in comparison to real character test.

And everytime repeating that Miky Passo del Lupo should have bad character, I can only laugh at. I saw him twice, last year and this year. On his own ground without(!) his owner and he was so sweet and kind to me although he did not know me. A foreigner in his own garden. And he came to me and was like a sweety wanted to be touched from me and was all around me in an absolute friendly way. In a way I never saw before from a csw adult male dog! I hope every csw male would be like him and people would not have problems.

Sorry Margo, I like you very very much and I did enjoy very much you wolfdog camp at the end of august. But you are not kind of objectiv I would appreciate. The italian csw are much more dogs and dogs for people and city than every others. And please I know dogs from your litters which get crazy passing 30 m away with others dogs. Are they normal, afraid of what for? These are all behaviours of single dogs. Nothing to say all dogs out of this kennel are so. So please keep cool.

Sure it is your web site. But please 500 puppies in the year in comparison to 60 in germany, 70 in slovakia and 100 in czech allows much more better selection.

Christian

As Rolf wrote, sweap in front of your doors first please before accusing other breeders. Try to be objectiv. Please, it is christmas time! All the best for you all.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

It is really really true what you did write Rolf.

I fully agree with this

Originally Posted by hanninadina

These test are too nothing in comparison to real character test.

This is exactly my point ! The character test in Cz and Sk bonitation is ONLY testing if the dog will defend it`s owner and it self, but this really say NOTHING about character, you can train your dog to react correct in these situations, but this SHOULD not be a test of training, but of character !
...so all in all one could say that the name "character test" should be changed to "test of defence reaction" OR the character test should be performed in a much more serious and ambitious way to live up to the name "character test". This is why I think this "small" difference in the Italian version of the "character test" really mean nothing.

Greetings Rolf

[elf]

Some affirmations are true some are false.

It's true that a dog can be at a kind of level conditioned for character test (that's why for the first french bonitation I asked people not to prepare their dog to have a brut results).

It's false that one cannot learn a lot about an adult dog character with test less than 45min. It's false that you can learn/condition all to a dog for test character, sensorial homeostatsis ability is not "learnable".

Interestingtalk about Miky. The problem nowadays is not the talk around the character of Miky, but in France we have a real problem of genetic diversity and population bottleneck on this line, 396 offsprings for Miky, 760 for Cutt.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by elf

It's false that one cannot learn a lot about an adult dog character with test less than 45min. It's false that you can learn/condition all to a dog for test character, sensorial homeostatsis ability is not "learnable".

I see don`t where it is written that 45min. is minimum ? But I agree that 3-5min. is not enough to make a complete character test, but the TIME is not the main issue, the main issue is HOW the test is performed

Greetings Rolf

[Nebulosa]

Well, t'ill now we talk only about the character tests differences in Italian Bonitation, but I remember about problems with the notes for dogs with wrong index, that if not deceifme was one of the others problems envolved with Italian Bonitation.
Character test itself have differences between Czech republic and Slovak, only that won't discredit a bonitation like we can see in italian ones.
Maybe, italian people can explain it better.

[Juniorwolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Well, t'ill now we talk only about the character tests differences in Italian Bonitation, but I remember about problems with the notes for dogs with wrong index, that if not deceifme was one of the others problems envolved with Italian Bonitation.

I did not hear/read about this in the Italian bonitation, but it is apparently like this in the CZ and SK bonitation according to Margo(see the quote below).

Originally Posted by Margo

Dog with index of height should get P14 in Slovakia AND in Czech Republic. But in Slovakia the judges pay attention to it and in Czech Republic nobody cares about it

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Character test itself have differences between Czech republic and Slovak, only that won't discredit a bonitation like we can see in italian ones.
Maybe, italian people can explain it better.

I personally don`t think one difference is worser than another, Cz and Sk bonitations ARE different, in Cz all "normal" dogs get the code R1 and as far as I understand Sk only give this code to dogs who are more than normal dry types, then there is the difference with 1cm too little in height and also the difference with index, so in Italy they have a difference in "character test"(which discredit the bonitation) and in Cz and Sk they have a difference in how to write codes(which discredit the bonitation) ....is one better or worser than the other ? I think not

Greetings Rolf

[Navarre]

Hello, i think we must talk mainly about facts, more than opinions.

- is a fact that italian bontace has different rules than ceko-slovakian. Czech and Slovakian have different interpretation , but the test is almost the same.
I won't say italian is better or worse, only is different! So isn't right to give the same code (Px) with different rules...italian coluld gave a different code (IPx for example).

- is a fact that more and more italian breeders and owners no more trust in anyway on the management of breed operated by so-called "italian breed club".
You can clearly see this, looking at the bonitation organized in Pavia by us and by some our friends with the help of Czech Club : the 2nd largest bonitation ever in the world, with more than 40 dogs (at the bonitace of italian club very often there are 4 or 5 dogs at most!)

- I don't care much, but indeed is a fact that Micky Passo del Lupo (a dog that I personally see many and many times OUTSIDE HIS HOME, ever with the tail under his belly) IS a shy, un-balanced dog, with shy brothers, that made shy sons that made shy nepew...
May be he could have other strong points, but for sure NOT the character.