Differences in bonitations...

[Liesbeth]

Originally Posted by lupis

In results i see Ice Wolf and dog is P14 because slovak judge measure it with 63,5 centimetres and i see now dog is very good in belgium because czech judge give him 1,5 centimetres more and now he is minimum size. I read many critic of Mirka about small dogs and now i see he and czech judge make dog more big and make P14 dog to P3. I want ask how big is difference between czech ans slovak measure? and when is next bonitation in belgium with same judge because many people write bad thing on cutt - father of my dog of my friend. And i see it is possible to change if breeder come and make new bonitation. But what i not understand are bad words Mirka write about other dogs but same time make bonitation and give P3 for too small dog

Hi,

I can only give an answer to your first question.
About Ice-Wolf: I know the dog was seriously ill when he was still young and he was always very small and skinny. Since one year, his owner has a second dog and Ice had a break for training. His owner also changed the dog's food and he got really fat. When he started to train him again, the dog didn't loose all the extra weight and he looked bigger and more masculine. His owner wanted to bonitate him again, because the dog really changed a lot. I saw it myself: the dog even looked bigger.
The judge measured him and he appeared to be 65cm... Of course I wasn't standing beside it to check the measurement, but I don't think the judge made him bigger or smaller
Another possibility could be that the dog didn't change, but his exact size is let's say 64,2cm. On the first measurement the dog was maybe not so self-confident and he got measured 63,5. The second measument the dog was maybe standing straight on his legs and full of confidence, a bit older and bigger and measured 64,9...

I understand your point about Cutt... He's a nice male with very nice offsprings and it's a pity he has a P14 code because of his height

Liesbeth

[Hanka]

Yes, 6 months (+ -) old dog is puppy usually.

[rocco]

Matusincova isn't judge !!!!!!! He never pass exam for judge. She is a head of breeding commission in Czech . I agree with lupis you have good questions and very good point of vieiw .
The judge in Prag was Anna Simackova but code make Matusincova . I don't agree with czech breeding commission, it' s not a secret . But it's czech problem.....
And something to animal measure. It's difficult measure animals and give always the same number. It depends f.e. on condition, character, coat, if you measure on grass or on concrete......But too small dogs you can recognize at first sight. Standard said this precisely but if somebody want use small dogs who can prevent it ? Nobody.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by rocco

And something to animal measure. It's difficult measure animals and give always the same number. It depends f.e. on condition, character, coat, if you measure on grass or on concrete......But too small dogs you can recognize at first sight. Standard said this precisely but if somebody want use small dogs who can prevent it ? Nobody.

From what I read here written by Czech breeders I see that most of them are obssessed with size - it seems to be their main breeding criterium. I wonder if this approach is a kind of "weapon" against breeders from other countries, who breed smaller but.... nicer dogs.

For me there is more to the beauty of a dog than its hight or weight. These are proportions, head, movement, character etc., etc.

Maybe breeding Czechoslovakian elephants would be a solution for some Czech breeders?

[Hanka]

No Rona, size is not only one criterium for breeding. Do you know standart? Read what size MUST be wolfdog. If it is most beautiful wolfdog on the World, under standart size, it must not be in breeding. Standart is only one, for all wolfdogs.
I was on bonitation in Prag where was judge Simackova. I was sitting by table and I wrote codes to pedigree. But I don´t remember, only mrs. Matusincova told me codes....... it was work of all bonitation comission. And if was problem we spoke about it together. Hmmmm, maybe I was on some second action..................

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Hanka

No Rona, size is not only one criterium for breeding. Do you know standart? Read what size MUST be wolfdog. If it is most beautiful wolfdog on the World, under standart size, it must not be in breeding. Standart is only one, for all wolfdogs.
I was on bonitation in Prag where was judge Simackova. I was sitting by table and I wrote codes to pedigree. But I don´t remember, only mrs. Matusincova told me codes....... it was work of all bonitation comission. And if was problem we spoke about it together. Hmmmm, maybe I was on some second action..................

Hanka, you're writing about ideas, and I - about the practice . Read what Lisbeth wrote: the dog was smaller - but then it grew... I agree that malnutrition may lead to smaller size of the dog - but than should such a dog really be excluded from breeding, even if it is healthy and beuatiful and has excellent character? We both know that sometimes smaller dogs, if correctly matched, may have pups that grow to average or even big sizes and pass very positive genes.

The real (and for me really irritating) problem is that if OUR (or our friend's dog) is small - it was underfed and/or sick in puppyhood. If a dog of our antagonist is small - it is UGLY and does not meet the standard. Do you see the point I'm trying to make?
In my opinion this is a very childish and self-destructive attitude which in the long run will lead to the devaluation of bonitation. In fact, it already has. Not to mention, that honest breeders will fear to write openly about their dogs' imperfections - and no dog is perfect, even the best Czech one.

And something to animal measure. It's difficult measure animals and give always the same number. It depends f.e. on condition, character, coat, if you measure on grass or on concrete......

This is exactly my opinion. One centimeter this or another way shouldn't matter as long as the dogs fulfils other criteria, beacuse it may have very valuable features and it would be a waste to exclude him/her from breeding. The standard does not say what should the dog be standing on during bonitation and wheather it should be in his summer or winter coat or be before or after the bath.

But too small dogs you can recognize at first sight.

I don't agree here: thinner dogs look smaller, those with more robust body - bigger. People see a slim dog and judge: "it's too small" even if it matches the standard or even exceeds it and it is stated in the bonitation code. A more heavily built dog, with biggr coat will give an impressioin of being taller (even if 1-2 centimeters have to be added at bonitation to his height to meet the standard)

[rocco]

No Rona - you are wrong for czech breedrs is important standard . And we have breeding comission and they advice breeding elephant but only in other kennel not in own .... Its difficult to explain it. In other country you can mix what you want ( I thing it's sometimes better, but sometimes.....) in Czech we must have paper from breeding comission -----and use dogs f.e. from Italy is very hard fight with Matusincova.

For me is important normal CSW with good character. Beuty is not all ......And what somebody love (small dogs ) somebody seems it is bad.

[Vaiva]

Originally Posted by Rona

From what I read here written by Czech breeders I see that most of them are obssessed with size - it seems to be their main breeding criterium.

Yes, and this sounds strange... I have a tall and muscular but still very feminine female (Walkiria Girios dvasia) and in my case I am more worried about "mastif" like looking dogs, about too big and to heavy dogs... My female was measured during the bonitation by Oskar Dora and the code says she is 66 cm. But when I measure her myself, the number is changing So maybe we should trust the experts?...

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Vaiva

Yes, and this sounds strange... I have a tall and muscular but still very feminine female (Walkiria Girios dvasia) and in my case I am more worried about "mastif" like looking dogs, about too big and to heavy dogs... My female was measured during the bonitation by Oskar Dora and the code says she is 66 cm. But when I measure her myself, the number is changing So maybe we should trust the experts?...

I trust the experts But even then measuring can change
My female was 61 cm on youth presentation (of a CZ judge) and 60 cm on a later Bonitation (of a SK judge)
But this is not a real problem for me!

[Rona]

Originally Posted by mijke

My female was 61 cm on youth presentation (of a CZ judge) and 60 cm on a later Bonitation (of a SK judge)

This only proves that I was right that some Czechs are obsessed with size . The dog may grow with time, but I doubt if can shrink This example also shows how absurd the "one centimeter bonitation wars" are.

But this is not a real problem for me!

Neither would it be for any reasonable CSV owner.

[Rona]

Originally Posted by Liesbeth

Hi,
About Ice-Wolf: I know the dog was seriously ill when he was still young and he was always very small and skinny. Since one year, his owner has a second dog and Ice had a break for training. His owner also changed the dog's food and he got really fat. When he started to train him again, the dog didn't loose all the extra weight and he looked bigger and more masculine. His owner wanted to bonitate him again, because the dog really changed a lot. I saw it myself: the dog even looked bigger.
The judge measured him and he appeared to be 65cm... Of course I wasn't standing beside it to check the measurement, but I don't think the judge made him bigger or smaller
Another possibility could be that the dog didn't change, but his exact size is let's say 64,2cm. On the first measurement the dog was maybe not so self-confident and he got measured 63,5. The second measument the dog was maybe standing straight on his legs and full of confidence, a bit older and bigger and measured 64,9...

Lisbeth, what you say confirms the bonitation problem that exsits: the dogs of our friends were sick, underfed, were scared during the bonitation and that's why they didn't reach the minimnum size. By the secod bonitation they have grown, got braver, their bodies have changes etc. and that's why they deserve a better code. People would never say it about the dogs of their "enemies" or competitors. Those were either measured properly and the bonitation results were "lifted" by "dishonest judges" or they do not desereve the bonitation code they have. If the second bonitation code is better than the first one - there definitely must have been some dishonest action....

Don't you guys see this is patethic? If you start questioning bonitation codes given to dogs by competent, reliable, honest judges bonitations will totally lose its value! They will be worth not more than the piece of paper on which the result was printed. There must be a group of trustful judges who cooperate together, set standards and follow procedures and whose judgements will never be undermined or questioned by anybody if the bonitation is to have any sense at all.

The result of the above discussion is such, that I decided not to bonitate my dog. Are you really aiming towards more such personal decisions? If yes - go on arguing....