Differences in bonitations...

[*Satu]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Yes me to Satu, and hopefuly people would bring pencils instead of guns

Regards / Mikael

How many meetings and CZW owners you have seen only fighting??
fighting dosn´t help this breed at all.

Words can fight whitout weapons....

[woland77]

From different months I am working to an articles that draws note of the differences in the bonitation. I have assisted and participated with my dogs in the last months in three bonitazionis to compare her, with rules of the Czech republic to Pavia, with Italian rules to Montecatini, with rules of the Slovak republic to Heingenbrucken. I have set here officially besides a lot of the present matters to the Club Slovacco in how much holding of guardianship of the race. I will just have answered I will complete this analysis and I will make her/it public. I can anticipate that differences are a lot of, not only to level of carachter test.I have opinion the opinion that for the good of the race the bonitation is goes unified putting the most remarkable Club around a table. But on first should be decide that type of dog wants to fix in the CZW. in Italy a lot people would be wanted him in the group 5, in the Czech republic they would be wanted him a true job dog..the difference is not only carachter, but it is also in the safeguard of the rusticity that the Czw has inherited from the wolf..if there is not before accord in what the direction that the selection of this race must take must be, there can be no accord on the rules of bonitation.

[saschia]

Woland, it is true that we need to make the bonitations and bonitation code unified internationally, and the Slovak and Czech clubs recognize this need and are cooperating in this regard. On the other hand, this is not a thing that can be decided upon by elected members of the club presidia, it needs input of experts in the field of dog breeding and behavior, and as all the people involved can only work on this in their spare time, it naturally takes some time.

But there is no question of allocation of Czechoslovak Wolfdog to different FCI group that it is now - it was created as a working breed and we intend to keep it that way. This I can say as a representative of the guarantee of the breed - the Slovak Club does not intend any change of FCI group and will not in forseable future agree with it.

[hanninadina]

It seems to me that everyone is in wolfdog meeting shows this weekend in italy and germany. that gave me time to read the whole thread which increased so fast.

Margo, you know I like you and your family(dogfamily too) very much!!! But I am really wondering why you put names in the ring. 2-3 weeks ago someone pissed at me here in english forum without telling my name. But everyone who knows me and my dogs knew she meant me. I replied by saying it is me, I did not bother others, and explained the truth! I think Przemek was it who cancelled every one of my statements. And the lie stayed here in forum til now.

So, we all know that is your personal homepage but we are a bit disappoionted how you measured her the statements...

I was wondering too, a 64 cm male got P 1. But, I am in breeing for Briards - Berger de Brie - french herdings dogs for 10 years. And there it is possible and no fault, if a female or male dog is 1 cm less or more in hight as the standard says, if everything else is without faults. And that is the right answer from Margo, I think that this must be possible. But this has to be add in standard if it is not written there til this very moment.

Here in this thread are some different more threads. Talking about bonitation in hronec this year. 2 dogs were mentioned. I was really disappointed when I read that Daiva is using electric collar for training. Daiva in germany electric collar is forbidden!!! And no one needs this damned thing. When I read your comments here as a breeder, judge, dog owner, I thought everytime wow, it seems as if she knows what she talking about... I saw you in Poznan one week ago. What can I say, my friend Miguel visit Geryon and I saw it from a few meters away. He behaved to people very friendly and well. But when I passed thru with Myla and Tala about 40 m away he started barking at us and jumping in his leash which was around a tree.

So, I have not easy but hyperactiv Myla. Please see bonitation code from last year from Sona. She is perfect. In every ring she behaved well. I can not understand why it was not possible for you as a sooo experienced breeder, judge and so on, that you were not able to handle your own dog?

Second thing, my "friend" Michael Eichhorn: everyone who knows him knows that he as a dog trainer, dogtravelmanager, breeder and owner of 5 csw is very hard to his dogs. I am wondering, Massimo, that you try to help him.... You know as we did, that Michael beats his dogs on the mouth when they don´t behave like he wants. And even his 9 year old ones. With this age and as a dog trainer I thought a dog has to listen to first comand/word and does not need being beaten up. In summer camp 2004 in germany, lots of people saw that he was crossing a sleeping 6 month old puppy which woke up because he was going over his head. The dog tried to get to Michael, he turned around and kick this poor little one with his feet.

So, Massimo, if a tongue got blue, you know as we do, that he puts the dog out of air. You called it he was hard with collar. It is no wonder that Gorbi was not able to do anything and let Sona do her work. I konw Gorbi from last year bonitation in germany. He was the boss of is owners and barking at every dog and people with his ruta in sky. I guess Michael did choose the wrong owners for him. This could happen but this gave him not the right to be so brutal with a dog. And I am wondering why Sona who knows that Gorbi has a problem let him pass with P 1??? In normal live without being beaten up he behaves like hell!!!! But if interesting people see the result from bonitation they could thing wow nice dog. But this not true!

Christian

[saschia]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

And I am wondering why Sona who knows that Gorbi has a problem let him pass with P 1???

Christian how can you wonder about Sona, who is experienced and widely accepted judge, about judging the character of Gorbi wrongly? Especially when you were not there and read only parts of what people saw during the bonitation (as nobody has enough time, memory and space here to describe the whole process in detail)?

I can assure you that Gorbi didn't get the marks he got wrongly. He panicked at the beginning, but then later behaved normally, not only during measurement, but also during character test, which actually took place more than an hour later. He got Og, which of course cannot prevent him from being P1, as there were no other faults.

When a dog panics in very strange situation, it is not bad. Bad is, if the dog cannot accept the very strange situation as something which is actually not dangerous. Gorbi needed to be taken away for a while, shown his place and then calmed down, and it worked.

So the case of Gorbi does not tell anything about the way faults are evaluated in different countries.

On the other hand, I feel I need to say something more about the faults, standard, and bonitation codes. Standard says how the ideal dog should look and behave like and what faults should prevent him from being considered excellent and which faults should disqualify it from shows.
Bonitation code says which faults and diversions from the standard a dog exhibits. Some of the faults do not decrease the overall mark, or do so only in combination with others. How these combinations work is a part of knowledge of judge - if you do not have a licence, you should not say that dog with such and such fault should get P14, because you do not know, how important is which trait in overall evaluation.
Still, what mark a dog needs to get to be allowed to breed is a matter of local club. If the club decides that they will breed with dogs, which have P14 because of the character, it is their decision. If the bonitation is done properly, than everybody can see, what marks the ancestors of the puppy got and if he would buy such puppy for later breeding or not. Therefore it is much worse to not give a bad mark to a dog which actually has a fault, than to give it to it and then still use the dog for breeding. After all, the P mark only tells how the dog looks overall, but it is still necessary, when choosing partners, to consider every mark individually. If you have a good female with brown eyes, for you it is much more important, that the dog has correct eyes, than that it is slightly smaller. Especially as we know that the color of eye is from 90% (if not more ) genetic, while the height is affected also by nutrition and health during dog's development.

So I think if we should discuss the differences in evaluating dogs in different countries and by different judges, that we should more concentrate on details, like what is still considered amber and what brown, what is considered
shy, insecure, mistrustful and guarded and how it is actually found out, and which faults are most important to avoid in breeding.

[Huan]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

Przemek was it who cancelled every one of my statements.

I don't remember myself removing your posts recently.

Originally Posted by hanninadina

I was wondering too, a 64 cm male got P 1. But, I am in breeing for Briards - Berger de Brie - french herdings dogs for 10 years. And there it is possible and no fault, if a female or male dog is 1 cm less or more in hight as the standard says, if everything else is without faults.

I especially took a look at Briards standard and it is more strict than that of CzW. It's openly written that going below minimum is disqulification. In CzW standard there is no such sentence. It's just some people's interpretation - stop people overinterpret the stanrdard and don't say things that are not included in it. Going below minimum is a fault - TRUE. Going below minimum is disqualification - THAT IS OVER-INTERPRETING. No such sentence exists in the breed standard. Just that it is a fault since the standard says it's below minimum. If you want it to be strict change the standard. An example from Briards standard: "

  
SIZE: 0,62 m to 0,68 m for males.
0.56 m to 0,64 m for females.
The length of the body must be more important than the height at shoulders.  The general appearance of the Briard is rangy.
Penalization: Cobby dog : no Excellent.  Sizes superior to 0,68 m and 0,64 m.
Disqualification: Below the minimum.  More than 2 cm above the maximum size.

Nice and clear but... this is a quote from Briard standard.

[Mirkawolf]

Originally Posted by Przemek

In CzW standard there is no such sentence. It's just some people's interpretation - stop people overinterpret the stanrdard and don't say things that are not included in it. Going below minimum is a fault - TRUE. Going below minimum is disqualification - THAT IS OVER-INTERPRETING. No such sentence exists in the breed standard. Just that it is a fault since the standard says it's below minimum. If you want it to be strict change the standard.

It happens that in the book "Ceskoslovensky vlcak", that I have here on my table, and which was written by Ing.Karel Hartl, founder of the breed, and Ing. Jindrich Jedlicka, former head advisor of the breed in CR, it says clearly, that: "Nonstandard size (insufficient height in withers) is disqualifying fault."
The standard does not need to be changed. What has to be done, is this book getting finally translated, so people stop cheating.
I don´t think that anyone would question the words of the very founder of the breed as to what is standard or not in the breed.

[Mirkawolf]

I apologise to other users here on WD for this discussion. But as I was publicly attacked here, it has to publicly end here.

My dear Margo, I have a nerve indeed. I have also patience and I have some honour, and I will defend it against your public accusations.

FIRST - I never started topic with attacks on your kennel - read the question again. I have never mentioned the name of the dog, neither the kennel nor you. But you immediately attacked me and threw accusations, which are not based on any facts and you know it. I will remind you:

- You accused me of breeding on dogs with serious disqualifying faults. That is not true and anyone can check it out - the bonitation codes of both my females are presented here on Wolfdog.org, as well as on my own website and I can proove their correctness anytime. Just for records, my dogs were bonitated by recognised experts Sona Bognarova and Monika Soukupova.

- You accused me of hiding things - not sure what you mean, probably anything from who killed J.F.K. to dysplasia of my dog. Again - these are pure accusations with a goal to throw dirt on me. HD results of my older female are online both here and on my own website and written down in Cira´s pedigree.

Ali has heavy HD, which I know from her 9 months of age and I was never breeding with her and never will. The HD result is not displayed anywhere, simply because she was x-rayed before the age required for official HD result. Ali´s state and problems are known not only to the Czech breeding commitee, my friends, the local CSW Club in Belgium, but also to Sona Bognarova, who bonitated her. And indeed, on my own website is article in two languages about the hydrotherapy that I did with my Ali. The hydrotherapy was recommended to us by Veterinary clinic in Liege and it did wonders to her movement and health. I invite everyone to come and read about Ali here.

So, Margo, at the end of the day, let me borrow your own words - "if you have nothing bad to hide you should be not afraid of any critique because you can explain everything." I also think you should "be prepared you have also to answer some problematic questions..."

I give you one last chance – you have publicly accused me of breeding on dogs with disqualifying faults. This is a fact which can be verified to be false. So either withdraw publicly your accusations and apologize, or face the consequences. It is your choice. Nobody can accuse other people publicly without having hard facts and think he will get away with it. Not even you, the law is the same for everybody. And please, don´t bother erasing this topic or posts. The whole topic has been already saved by several people ready to bear witness to the fact, changing things now would only be seen as a means of hiding evidence. The evidence of what you said will not go away.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by Mirkawolf

It happens that in the book "Ceskoslovensky vlcak", that I have here on my table, and which was written by Ing.Karel Hartl, founder of the breed, and Ing. Jindrich Jedlicka, former head advisor of the breed in CR, it says clearly, that: "Nonstandard size (insufficient height in withers) is disqualifying fault."
The standard does not need to be changed. What has to be done, is this book getting finally translated, so people stop cheating.
I don´t think that anyone would question the words of the very founder of the breed as to what is standard or not in the breed.

A book, no matter who wrote it, is no standard. The FCI-Standard says no such thing. Obviously Oskar Dora thinks different who is a very experienced judge and still member of the Club Comitee of the Patronage Country.

Ina

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

So, I have not easy but hyperactiv Myla. Please see bonitation code from last year from Sona. She is perfect. In every ring she behaved well.

Christian

Well one last comment because it concernes the health of breed topics and therefor really is important: Hyperactivity in dogs exist and is, like in humans, a heritable neurological disorder. Children of parents with hyperactivitiy show this problem much more often than the average population. If she really is hyperactiv, what is mentioned here by the owner himself in regular terms, she should not be bred but treated with the usual drugs, together with a behavioural training.

Ina

[wolfin]

Originally Posted by hanninadina

I was really disappointed when I read that Daiva is using electric collar for training. Daiva in germany electric collar is forbidden!!! And no one needs this damned thing.

You think he is forbidden? I have others informaton from IPO trainers from Germany. Maybe it is forbidden but only official - almost all shephard breeders in your country use it.

What can I say, my friend Miguel visit Geryon and I saw it from a few meters away. He behaved to people very friendly and well.

Yes, on meeting and in Germany this weekend. And both be happy about this meeting

But when I passed thru with Myla and Tala about 40 m away he started barking at us and jumping in his leash which was around a tree.

And for You this in anormal reaction? dogs see others dogs and are happy to see new dogs

So, I have not easy but hyperactiv Myla. Please see bonitation code from last year from Sona. She is perfect. In every ring she behaved well. I can not understand why it was not possible for you as a sooo experienced breeder, judge and so on, that you were not able to handle your own dog?

Your Mila is hyperactiv? hmm interesing.....
If You think in this metod - this is only Yours mind. i think others

[hanninadina]

Electricity collar is for three years officially forbidden in germany! I am very sorry, one of my friends is the highest police dog trainer in lower saxony where I live. And the police does not use electric collar. And Daiva even if there are some stupids who need electricity to work with their dogs, it is very sad if someone needs it too. Even if it is you, who wrote here in several times as if you are very experienced with dogs. And please when you are sometimes not able to handle Geryon like in Hronec, don´t you think that your dog maybe does not trust you? Because sometimes he was hurt by you through electricity collar. Csw is much too intelligent and he knows even if you stood far away that hurting has to do with your comand. that is my opinion.

Przemek, you wrote here about the old standard! New standard says, 1 cm under the smallest hights and 2 cm over is allowed otherwise disqualification. And this is what I mean, it should be written in standard not more and not less. Where is the problem? Than no one has to discuss over pages what is right and what is wrong. Things must be compareable. I did not know either that there different ways how to see a bonitation. So everyone should make several bonitations in different countries.

I don´t know, I thought you are the moderator of english forum, aren´t you? Someone says, that 3 famous breeders did not give me a puppy. I think you remember that I was in your house with my 8 year old daughter when you had beautiful litter with Jolly and Borko and the puppies had been1 week old?! Do you remember? I never ask you for a puppy, I only wanted to see how other breeders were rasing up puppies and how csw are. I ask you to confirm this. Not more. And someone if not you cancelled it from forum.

Christian

[Pavel]

I must say, that Daiva said true. Electrical collar is absolutelly normally using by IPO top training (same like needle collar and string collar). In Germany too !!!
Electrical collar is very good training tool, but only for very specific using and using only under supervision of good experienced trainer. Is stupid to say, that electrical or needle collar are bad. With knife you can killing, but cutting bread as well. Every tool is good, if is correct use.

[mijke]

Originally Posted by Margo

We plan to do it but many notes are gone because nobody published them (Czech club started to publish it first since few years).

There is other problem - you can not compare the notes in the slovak bonitation cards where you have listed really SMALL faults and the czech bonitation cards where you have listed even SERIOUS faults which were not put in the bonitation code because of the danger the dogs can get P14 because of it...

Originally Posted by Hanka

To Vaiva:
In note you can read open lips, but in real it is not Really open lips, but only very little. It is just like: "danger-children of this dogs can have open lips when somebody will combinate two dogs with this small mistake"....

When you are a breeder from west Europe (who is not able to go to all bonitations) it is very difficult to judge a right male for your female, when you don’t know also the small details…….. And before I visit a interesting male I can read the Bonitation results, but I miss the small details!

I am glad there is Bonitation, so there is some kind of judgement / measurement about a dog of this breed.
That is the reason I did youth presentation and Bonitation with her. And I am satisfied with my P3 female, but I also would love her when she would have get P14! So that is not my point!

I can imagine that there are differences in measurement (we did measure for example some dogs before we went to Pozna, and some did grow or shrink on Bonitation. We are not experts, so maybe we did measure wrong!) When a dog is feeling uncomfortable, he/she has in much of the cases not the same height when he/she is relaxed.

My female did youth presentation in Hostivice when she was almost 2 years old and did get : A61 E1 H12 Oh P3 (sm)
Now she is did Bonitation in Pozna and did get A60 E3 M6 Of R1 P3.
So she did shrink, her eyes were changing form light brown to dark, she did loose the fault H12 and did get a new one M6 (because of some light nails)

Of course I know my female and her small faults. That is why I am for a combination always looking for a male with not the same faults! But how reliable are Bonitation results when they are not mentioning all the “small faults” (and riscs for a combination)?
And of course I can see small faults when I meet a male in reality, but then I first have to drive hundreds of km’s

And by the way in the Bonitation result of my female on wolfdog is now: Og but in my official paper is Of ! And is was obvious that she did not deserve g with her reaction on the threatening!
So this a small mistake in the info on wolfdog , so please Margo will you change this?

Originally Posted by Margo

You know what is the REAL problem? It is the code "Px" Remove it as many people suggest... After such step there will be no fight about the Slovak bonitation and the czech comittee will have no more any reason to hide the faults... And the MAIN GOAL will be fullfiled - in the bonitation you will REALLY have all BIG faults and SMALL FAULTS will be written into the notes... They will write it because NOBODY will have any OFFICIAL reasons to hide them....

Originally Posted by Hanka

So great )). Now you can only write notes behind bonitation codes on some club pages . If all clubs wil do the same.......Dream

I hope this all will work out in future and there will come international rules for all clubs!

[saschia]

Originally Posted by mijke

My female did youth presentation in Hostivice when she was almost 2 years old and did get : A61 E1 H12 Oh P3 (sm)
Now she is did Bonitation in Pozna and did get A60 E3 M6 Of R1 P3.
So she did shrink, her eyes were changing form light brown to dark, she did loose the fault H12 and did get a new one M6 (because of some light nails)

Yes Mijke, that can happen. The eye of a dog is changing throughout its life and can become darker (often does, actually). Also, it is very hard to say what is light brown and what is dark brown, as well as it is hard to say what is dark amber and what already light brown. There are thing which also develop - posture for example, movement, if the dog is young or tired or in bad condition, it can get worse marks than after some growing and training. Some thing can get better, but it is not for judge to decide if the problem is because of lack of movement or because of inborn condition. That is for you - you want to get good marks, work with your dog ! ;o)

Originally Posted by mijke

Of course I know my female and her small faults. That is why I am for a combination always looking for a male with not the same faults! But how reliable are Bonitation results when they are not mentioning all the “small faults” (and riscs for a combination)? And of course I can see small faults when I meet a male in reality, but then I first have to drive hundreds of km’s

Well , this is a problem. Notes should be for things like which tooth is missing or extra, for things which are present because of something (bad movement after injury for example). They are also used sometimes for traits which are not considered faults by judge, but should be mentioned. Open lips is a good example. But the problem is - what is open lips? I have read many notes meaning the lips are not opened, but show some slacking... It is not fault because it is not in standard and code, but it should be mentioned, as it can have influence in future generations.
So what could be done, if breeders think it important, is to make another code for lips which are not perfectly closed and dry. I would agree, I think lot of wolfdogs today have lips which are not perfect in my opinion. But I also know that my bitch for example sometimes has perfect lips and sometimes has her face relaxed and the lips slack. So what should she get - perfect lips, or imperfect lips?
Good think for example would be, if in the database the official photo of the dog was one where the dog has mouth closed, so that you could see if the lips are perfect or slightly imperfect. But that is not always possible of course.
The other thing is, the breeding commitee has all the info including notes and when they decide the pairs, they take it into account. Well, you don't have breeding committee, but you still can ask the owner of possible mate to send copy of the bonitation card, with notes.

[michaelundinaeichhorn]

Originally Posted by saschia

Christian how can you wonder about Sona, who is experienced and widely accepted judge, about judging the character of Gorbi wrongly? Especially when you were not there and read only parts of what people saw during the bonitation (as nobody has enough time, memory and space here to describe the whole process in detail)?

Very easy answer, he is bred by us and Michael was involved and Christian has a little problem with reality-awareness and especially with us since we refused to sell him a puppy. I think we all should ignore someone that is able to insult, I think, 5 persons in one statement about a happening he didn´t join in. Telling long stories about things he also didn´t see but imagine, like he did here. And even if you both would have been there you would have the feeling you had been on a totally different occasion. Out of long years sad experience I can tell you he will go on forever if you react in any way.
I will get this cleared by a lawyer like I promised him the last time he wrote lies and give no more statements to this poor soul.


But coming back to the topic of this thread that is of much more importance than stupid fights.

Originally Posted by saschia

Well , this is a problem. Notes should be for things like which tooth is missing or extra, for things which are present because of something (bad movement after injury for example). They are also used sometimes for traits which are not considered faults by judge, but should be mentioned. Open lips is a good example. But the problem is - what is open lips? I have read many notes meaning the lips are not opened, but show some slacking... It is not fault because it is not in standard and code, but it should be mentioned, as it can have influence in future generations.
So what could be done, if breeders think it important, is to make another code for lips which are not perfectly closed and dry. I would agree, I think lot of wolfdogs today have lips which are not perfect in my opinion. But I also know that my bitch for example sometimes has perfect lips and sometimes has her face relaxed and the lips slack. So what should she get - perfect lips, or imperfect lips?

I too have the impression that bad lips are getting a problem and should get a code itself. During bonitation a dog normally isn´t that much relaxed that it shows slack lips if it doesn´t really have some. What I also have seen more often are not coloured toenails what isn´t of too much importance but a thing I would also like to be able to see in the code.

Originally Posted by saschia

The other thing is, the breeding commitee has all the info including notes and when they decide the pairs, they take it into account. Well, you don't have breeding committee, but you still can ask the owner of possible mate to send copy of the bonitation card, with notes.

There is only one problem, very many people out of western countries aren´t able to read Czech or Slovakian language. And I have spend a lot of time trying to read handwritten German language on show-judgements too. It is easier with codes.

Ina

[saschia]

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I too have the impression that bad lips are getting a problem and should get a code itself. ... There is only one problem, very many people out of western countries aren´t able to read Czech or Slovakian language. And I have spend a lot of time trying to read handwritten German language on show-judgements too. It is easier with codes.

Yes, this I agree with completely. I'll try to start discussion on this topic in the club.