What kind of dog is this - mixes by Passo del Lupo?

z Peronówki · 12-11-2007, 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I am just curios because the object came up at the German Forum, Sangria was shown on the CACIB in Stuttgart last weekend, is there something new about the Alaska Problem?

Alaska's problem...?

I think we can say it openly because it is already open secret that the Alaska do not exists and it is just another name of Ave Lupo Mutara - illegal mix which has beeen banned by the Czech and Slovakian CzW clubs and her owner saw the only chance to breed her in Italian rules which allow to breed with every mutt...

Anyway the story goes on... and it will move to higher official level of FCI. Beside of it the clubs in origin countries have some good ideas how to fight with such unwanted dogs of unknow origin.... More info will follow I hope soon...

But I hope also that the people and puppy buyers will have more responsibility than the mentioned breeders and nobody will buy such mixes or breed with them... It will be also risky for them because if any steps will finish with succes not only breeders of the mixes but also ALL their offsprings will be punished...

But I have another question about the LAW: could you tell me how it looks in Italy...? American Wolves are on the CITES list. And also Italy signed the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. It is in this country allowed to keep offspring of protected breeds without ANY permissions? So far I know in many countries it is simply forbidden... ILLEGAL...

massimo · 13-11-2007, 00:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Margo

Alaska's problem...?

I think we can say it openly because it is already open secret that the Alaska do not exists and it is just another name of Ave Lupo Mutara - illegal mix which has beeen banned by the Czech and Slovakian CzW clubs and her owner saw the only chance to breed her in Italian rules which allow to breed with every mutt...

Anyway the story goes on... and it will move to higher official level of FCI. Beside of it the clubs in origin countries have some good ideas how to fight with such unwanted dogs of unknow origin.... More info will follow I hope soon...

But I hope also that the people and puppy buyers will have more responsibility than the mentioned breeders and nobody will buy such mixes or breed with them... It will be also risky for them because if any steps will finish with succes not only breeders of the mixes but also ALL their offsprings will be punished...

But I have another question about the LAW: could you tell me how it looks in Italy...? American Wolves are on the CITES list. And also Italy signed the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora. It is in this country allowed to keep offspring of protected breeds without ANY permissions? So far I know in many countries it is simply forbidden... ILLEGAL...

nono, you need permission of course...if somebody proves you have a wolf or wolf hybrid with you...

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-11-2007, 10:38

As far as I know is it possible to proof via DNA-Test if a European or American wolf was crossed into a dog. Can´t the ENCI be forced to order a Test on Alaska?

Mirkawolf · 13-11-2007, 19:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As far as I know is it possible to proof via DNA-Test if a European or American wolf was crossed into a dog. Can´t the ENCI be forced to order a Test on Alaska?

Hmm, would not they have to proove first, that Alaska is in fact Ave Lupo Mutara? And how they are going to proove that? We all "know" that´s how it is, but for the law you need hard facts.
Not to mention, that Ave Lupo Mutara (I suppose) does not live in Italy, does she?

GalomyOak · 13-11-2007, 20:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

As far as I know is it possible to proof via DNA-Test if a European or American wolf was crossed into a dog. Can´t the ENCI be forced to order a Test on Alaska?

Just curious, off topic, but this comment made me wonder...how does CSW's DNA appear in a test - is the wolf blood from many generations ago evident in the test? Or does the DNA reflect mostly , or only a dog's DNA? I am aware of the closeness in genetics between dogs and wolves. I'm thinking more in legal terms, if a court tried to argue a CSW as a hybrid.

michaelundinaeichhorn · 13-11-2007, 21:11

I know that you can proof that there is Karpatian Wolf in CSW (must be over maternal DNA), you sure can´t say which generation but you can differ from American wolves. We had a case in Germany with a litter of Saarloos with crossed in CSW. The VDH could dictate a DNA-Test for parents just because of a rumor.
If you can proof that there is American Wolf and not Karpatian you wouldn´t need Alaska. And I am quite sure that the ENCI can order it without real proof. I just don´t think they will do it when they are not forced to.

massimo · 15-11-2007, 14:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn

I know that you can proof that there is Karpatian Wolf in CSW (must be over maternal DNA), you sure can´t say which generation but you can differ from American wolves. We had a case in Germany with a litter of Saarloos with crossed in CSW. The VDH could dictate a DNA-Test for parents just because of a rumor.
If you can proof that there is American Wolf and not Karpatian you wouldn´t need Alaska. And I am quite sure that the ENCI can order it without real proof. I just don´t think they will do it when they are not forced to.

Michael...you know what?? maybe Enci would like to have a request from the ITALIAN CLUB about it....
HAHAHAHAHA!

massimo

michaelundinaeichhorn · 15-11-2007, 14:56

Well, it was me not Michael who posted.
Heads of clubs can be changed, the Mutara people in the Czech Club had to learn this. They left to Italy and judged the last Club show...
It took the Czech Club two years to remove them and I think the Slowakian and German Clubs could help a little bit to support them. But the people there didn´t quit fighting. How many members has the Club and how many of them are Mutara supporters?

Ina

Nebulosa · 16-11-2007, 03:02

The pure breed certificat, is gived is some countries for dogs who haven't pedigree but are tipical in appearence.
That is made because with the wars, imigrants and too with the unknowledge of the people in the fields, some new bloodline of oficial FCI breeds can be found lost.
We cannot never forgot that some breeds, different of the CzW only is now breed because the ability to work, this made the man select a dog with some caracteristic's who will help such dog to work, these dogs, that was selected by that, normally wasn't pass by one selection seeing the bloodline, with genealogy and seeing being a breed futurelly, these breeds was selected only seeing their working caracteristics.
Different of the CzW, some of these breeds really need bloodlines, who really can be lost with their history.
Different of the CzW... breed wich we know the dogs that give life for the breed, that start the breeds, the F1 as Kazan.
Different of the CzW, breed that was selected and that we know the genealogy since the start.
Breed that when go out for other breeders, continue to pass for one selection, have their pedigree by the club even being recognized by the FCI.
Really, the CzW need the open bloodline book?
I think that no... that will only down the quality of the dogs, will only open the oportunity for hybrids and mix enter in the breed as false bloodline, wich will bring some new problems for the breed as new illness uncommon for the breed.
Why the the Slovak and Czech club not try close the bloodline book by the FCI?
I mean, why they not ask for FCI not allow the entrance of new dogs without pedigree as pure breed?!

We all know that normally the judges aren't able to judge the breed in dog shows ( of course, I not talk here of the specialists, but principally of the all-rounders judges), and that is they who judge the dogs for give or not the pure-breed certificat in some countries.
That is very serious and means that if today I do a cross betwen GSD and grey wolf, and leave for be judge when have the coat color of the CzW, this mix will receive the pure breed certificat and will can produce animals with pedigree.

If is for enter a new blood-line in the breed, for me, at least will be correct if this be done by one judgement comite in the countries of origine with at leat 10 well know breeders and judges.

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13-11-2007, 10:38	#3
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	As far as I know is it possible to proof via DNA-Test if a European or American wolf was crossed into a dog. Can´t the ENCI be forced to order a Test on Alaska?

13-11-2007, 21:11	#6
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	I know that you can proof that there is Karpatian Wolf in CSW (must be over maternal DNA), you sure can´t say which generation but you can differ from American wolves. We had a case in Germany with a litter of Saarloos with crossed in CSW. The VDH could dictate a DNA-Test for parents just because of a rumor. If you can proof that there is American Wolf and not Karpatian you wouldn´t need Alaska. And I am quite sure that the ENCI can order it without real proof. I just don´t think they will do it when they are not forced to.

15-11-2007, 14:56	#8
michaelundinaeichhorn Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bad Dürkheim Posts: 2,249	Well, it was me not Michael who posted. Heads of clubs can be changed, the Mutara people in the Czech Club had to learn this. They left to Italy and judged the last Club show... It took the Czech Club two years to remove them and I think the Slowakian and German Clubs could help a little bit to support them. But the people there didn´t quit fighting. How many members has the Club and how many of them are Mutara supporters? Ina

16-11-2007, 03:02	#9
Nebulosa Moderator Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Rio Grande do Sul Posts: 1,334	The pure breed certificat, is gived is some countries for dogs who haven't pedigree but are tipical in appearence. That is made because with the wars, imigrants and too with the unknowledge of the people in the fields, some new bloodline of oficial FCI breeds can be found lost. We cannot never forgot that some breeds, different of the CzW only is now breed because the ability to work, this made the man select a dog with some caracteristic's who will help such dog to work, these dogs, that was selected by that, normally wasn't pass by one selection seeing the bloodline, with genealogy and seeing being a breed futurelly, these breeds was selected only seeing their working caracteristics. Different of the CzW, some of these breeds really need bloodlines, who really can be lost with their history. Different of the CzW... breed wich we know the dogs that give life for the breed, that start the breeds, the F1 as Kazan. Different of the CzW, breed that was selected and that we know the genealogy since the start. Breed that when go out for other breeders, continue to pass for one selection, have their pedigree by the club even being recognized by the FCI. Really, the CzW need the open bloodline book? I think that no... that will only down the quality of the dogs, will only open the oportunity for hybrids and mix enter in the breed as false bloodline, wich will bring some new problems for the breed as new illness uncommon for the breed. Why the the Slovak and Czech club not try close the bloodline book by the FCI? I mean, why they not ask for FCI not allow the entrance of new dogs without pedigree as pure breed?! We all know that normally the judges aren't able to judge the breed in dog shows ( of course, I not talk here of the specialists, but principally of the all-rounders judges), and that is they who judge the dogs for give or not the pure-breed certificat in some countries. That is very serious and means that if today I do a cross betwen GSD and grey wolf, and leave for be judge when have the coat color of the CzW, this mix will receive the pure breed certificat and will can produce animals with pedigree. If is for enter a new blood-line in the breed, for me, at least will be correct if this be done by one judgement comite in the countries of origine with at leat 10 well know breeders and judges.