Wolf Dogs Being Crossed in the UK

[Butterfly]

There are kennels in the UK who claim to have Saarloos (and I have heard CWD) and they cross them with my chosen breed. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this? Personally I think the Wolfdogs should be left as they are, as should my breed, I see no reason to cross the dogs.

[Flinch]

Originally Posted by Butterfly

There are kennels in the UK who claim to have Saarloos (and I have heard CWD) and they cross them with my chosen breed. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this? Personally I think the Wolfdogs should be left as they are, as should my breed, I see no reason to cross the dogs.

My 2ct : Neven cross breed the Czw and Saarloos. Keep the bloodlines pure, do not make them into bastards. These 2 breeds are totally different dogs. Looks maybe somewhat the same, but characters are very different. I like my dogs with the typical Czw face, small ears, more lively and spontanious. The breeders have worked for decades to create these great dogs as they are, so anyone the messes things up should not be called a thouroughbred breeder, but an amature!

[Mikael]

Cs Wolfdog is a working dog, Saarloos is not, I can se the problem in the UK, where the breeds are half baned and x-crossings are not...

But I do not think mixing Cs Wolfdog and Saarloos will do the Cs Wolfdog good. but maby it will do the Saarloos a better and more healthy breed...

The mix however might bee a good dog, but not necessarily...

Regards / Mikael

[Butterfly]

Thanks for your input.

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Mikael

Cs Wolfdog is a working dog, Saarloos is not, I can se the problem in the UK, where the breeds are half baned and x-crossings are not...

But I do not think mixing Cs Wolfdog and Saarloos will do the Cs Wolfdog good. but maby it will do the Saarloos a better and more healthy breed...

The mix however might bee a good dog, but not necessarily...

Regards / Mikael

hi the law in uk has been changed after 6 yrs hard slog with defra here is link to new law, you will see CvS is legal dog in uk. http://www.defra.gov.uk/wildlife-cou...waa/hybrid.htm
there is no excuse for anyone in u.k. to be cross breeding the CVS with any other breed of dog inc saarloos, both breeds are good dogs within there own rights and cross breeding them serves no purpose at all, there are enough cross breds and to a more serious point there are enough cross breds who have been registered in Europe and have pedigree papers,,,,,,,,, and with major health problems, it has mostly affected the saarloos breed but when i look at some CVS that have appeared recently in posts then it looks like some have made it to pedigree status as well,,, sad but true, i have seen some CVS cross in uk and europe and they are beautiful dogs but thats as far as it should go, people trying to register such dogs as pure breds and trying to get pedigrees for such should be banned from breeding. pacino uk

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Butterfly

There are kennels in the UK who claim to have Saarloos (and I have heard CWD) and they cross them with my chosen breed. Just wondering what your thoughts are on this? Personally I think the Wolfdogs should be left as they are, as should my breed, I see no reason to cross the dogs.

hi butterfly, yes there are saarloos in uk and cwd and in the same kennels, but you know this as do we all for they openly advertise it in papers and on the net, but your choosen breed is also made up of at least 2-5 other breeds of dogs so i was just wondering what breeders of the breeds you have used to cross breed the dogs you have think of it ????

people who live in greenhouses should not throw stones,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

pacino u.k.

[bengan]

Originally Posted by solowolf

there is no excuse for anyone in u.k. to be cross breeding the CVS with any other breed of dog inc saarloos, both breeds are good dogs within there own rights and cross breeding them serves no purpose at all, pacino uk

Paul ..so you are against cross breeding the CVS with any BREED of DOG... how about with a wolf ...would that still be a crossbreed.?
I have seen some pictures of puppies on your website .. correct me if I am wrong.. who's father is a CVS and the mother is not... so your statement is kind of contradictory.. but I would love to hear your explanation...

bengan

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by bengan

Paul ..so you are against cross breeding the CVS with any BREED of DOG... how about with a wolf ...would that still be a crossbreed.?
I have seen some pictures of puppies on your website .. correct me if I am wrong.. who's father is a CVS and the mother is not... so your statement is kind of contradictory.. but I would love to hear your explanation...

bengan

oh no not you again ///// now your personal vendetta against me is going on... and as you dont own any CVS and your interest is in the Saarloos, and you live in northern Holland,,,,, are you on the correct web site? or are you infact not friend of Mrs C.Keizers ??? i have just looked at all your posts, Glad i didnt trust you with the CD thats for sure, as they are all set out to make little of me and breeders in u.k., you read correct i have never and will never cross any of my CVS with any other breed of DOG,,, so how am i being contradictory? you do understand english? look up contradictory,, maybe your vendetta is because what i and friends from the RADD do to certain saarloos dogs bred in France? anyway no doubt i will get another silly reply, feel free your giving us a good laugh in u.k. if nothing else,,,,,,,,,,pacino

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by bengan

Paul ..so you are against cross breeding the CVS with any BREED of DOG... how about with a wolf ...would that still be a crossbreed.?
I have seen some pictures of puppies on your website .. correct me if I am wrong.. who's father is a CVS and the mother is not... so your statement is kind of contradictory.. but I would love to hear your explanation...

bengan

hey you have seen photos on my web site, good healthy, fit, well fed dogs, want to see some of the cross breeds from France and some of the effects cross breeding has just click this link and be my guest
http://www.saarlooswolfhonden.nl/index2.html with this type of thing happening to what you state MY INTERESTS the SAARLOOS WOLFHOUND dont you think your time would be better spent trying to stop this.......... its not my breed but i can assure you i will put stop to this, p.s. most of these dogs are registered as pure Saarloos,,,,,,pacino

[bengan]

Originally Posted by solowolf

oh no not you again ///// now your personal vendetta against me is going on... and as you dont own any CVS and your interest is in the Saarloos, and you live in northern Holland,,,,, are you on the correct web site? or are you infact not friend of Mrs C.Keizers ??? i have just looked at all your posts, Glad i didnt trust you with the CD thats for sure, as they are all set out to make little of me and breeders in u.k., you read correct i have never and will never cross any of my CVS with any other breed of DOG,,, so how am i being contradictory? you do understand english? look up contradictory,, maybe your vendetta is because what i and friends from the RADD do to certain saarloos dogs bred in France? anyway no doubt i will get another silly reply, feel free your giving us a good laugh in u.k. if nothing else,,,,,,,,,,pacino

First of all ... All I've done was question your statements.. the ones you made here...so these is the place to post questions.. questions that you have never answered.. and for Mrs Keizer... most people in the wolfdog world know or know of her.. she is not however on my Christmas card list..

my English is not bad...here a definition for you...
Crossbreed..."offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties or breeds or species." so crossing a CVS with anything other then an other CVS, say a wolf, would be a crossbreed.. hence.. your contradiction in statements.."there is no excuse for anyone in u.k. to be cross breeding the CVS" your words... and yet per definition you have crossbred the CVS

I'm glad you are laughing.... and you are not alone....

Bengan

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by bengan

First of all ... All I've done was question your statements.. the ones you made here...so these is the place to post questions.. questions that you have never answered.. and for Mrs Keizer... most people in the wolfdog world know or know of her.. she is not however on my Christmas card list..

my English is not bad...here a definition for you...
Crossbreed..."offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties or breeds or species." so crossing a CVS with anything other then an other CVS, say a wolf, would be a crossbreed.. hence.. your contradiction in statements.."there is no excuse for anyone in u.k. to be cross breeding the CVS" your words... and yet per definition you have crossbred the CVS

I'm glad you are laughing.... and you are not alone....

Bengan

did one of the breed clubs in Europe breed CVS to wolf? did they register pups? ask them /

[bengan]

it's a shame you consider my questions and your lack of or unwillingness to give answers as a vendetta...

Do you know the story "The scorpion and the frog"..?
somethings are as they are.. just as some people are as they are..and one can't expect them to change..
So I've given up expecting you to ever back up any of your claims or make public your "evidence" or even look at yourself before passing judgment on others..
There is no doubt that you care and know a lot about wolfdogs..just some of your ways/means and or motivations are questionable.. however I do wish you all the best with your "wolf like" dogs.
After all ..it's about the animals..and not the people..

Bengan

[Nebulosa]

So, crossbreed for you is only with other dogbreeds, and how we name cross CzW with a Timberwolf Hybrid like seems you have done?

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by solowolf

did one of the breed clubs in Europe breed CVS to wolf? did they register pups? ask them /

Just because they did, do not make it right for whomever to mix hybids at home

Sad regards / Mikael

[Mikael]

Originally Posted by bengan

After all ..it's about the animals..and not the people..

Bengan

I totaly agree !!!

And mixing a CsV whit a wolf or a hybrid is in my eyes more wrong then to mix a CsV whit a dog !!!

Regards / Mikael

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

So, crossbreed for you is only with other dogbreeds, and how we name cross CzW with a Timberwolf Hybrid like seems you have done?

not a very good start if you cant tell a pure wollf when you see one is it??? not to worry we all learn something everyday, and you want to know what we call such mating, well i take example from CWS lines for this answer maby same as you call Sarik canis lupus x Xela z pohranieni straze ? CWS with wolf? so i must not do this WHY? please tell me? this is my private life i breed other wollfdogs, you have problem with this? so i am not aloud to breed with wolf for my research? but breeders in USA have sent me messages for advice on how to rear pups without useing the barbaric method of taking pups from mother at 10 days old and feeding from bottle to make pups have bond with humans, so this year some breeders in USA will try my method and its all thanks to my CWS who was a great father and without his help it would ot have been possable,, you know nothing about me or the work i do, and if it where not for peoplle like you i have wonderful experiences with the wolf and CWS people only dream of, and that i would love to share with people, for i am so proude of my CWS and my male Soli is something to be prode of, I used my CWS to train a wolf, have you ever witnessed a male CWS take a pup being born from a wolf and take the sack off and chew the cord, like the pup till it takes it first breath,clean the pups, regurgate food to the pups? people from all over the world where amazed at my photos, one man who was shown a certain photo said he had never witnessed this and he signed it for me,, Sir David Attenbrough.... now back to your dull question that you cant ask but ill tell you what you want to know and what you are implying in your question,,, No i will not use any of the pups to breed back to my CWS, o.k. is it o.k. to cross bred the CWS with other breed of dog ? NO why not? other dogs have health problems, so why add more to the pups of such cross breedings, the pure CWS in uk will remain pure, WE WORKED SO HARD OVER THE YEARS AND WE DONT LET CROSS BREEDS REACH REGISTER///// so now like me take a look at all the pics of CWS on wolfdog .org work your way from the north of Europe to the south,, are they the same breed??? now have closer look, dogs that look like bitchs, small dogs, small bitchs, eye colour, shape of eye, tali set, coats soft as poodle, ears??? at shows in France my friends and i see registered CWS that look like jackel or large fox, no substance and shy dogs with tail between legs so much it can not be seen, these dogs have no character hiding behind owners, one of my friends said to me that owner must beat his dog when i lift my hand to greet him he runs behind owner and shakes,, again ALL DOGS ARE REGISTERED ..... cross breeding, inbreeding, but it is there for all to see, look at the posts on different health problems creeping slowly into the CWS,, it is major problem in Europe for the CWS but not in uk for at least we know the cross breeders here and can make sure not one of these dogs ever get registration, you can in Europe stop this for like uk i am sure between all your people some of them will know where it goes wrong and can put end to it, or at least stop substandard dogs offspring from getting registrations,,,,, pacino

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

So, crossbreed for you is only with other dogbreeds, and how we name cross CzW with a Timberwolf Hybrid like seems you have done?

the breeder of Kizzy has just emailed she was not amused at you calling her a Timberwolf Hybird,,,,,,,,should have went to spec savers.....

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by bengan

it's a shame you consider my questions and your lack of or unwillingness to give answers as a vendetta...

Do you know the story "The scorpion and the frog"..?
somethings are as they are.. just as some people are as they are..and one can't expect them to change..
So I've given up expecting you to ever back up any of your claims or make public your "evidence" or even look at yourself before passing judgment on others..
There is no doubt that you care and know a lot about wolfdogs..just some of your ways/means and or motivations are questionable.. however I do wish you all the best with your "wolf like" dogs.
After all ..it's about the animals..and not the people..

Bengan

oh dont take it to heart i have a sick sense of hummour even my mum dosent like me, i am private person and i like to breed dogs o.k. i dont breed alot 3 litters in 6 yrs,but i enjoy and love my dogs a lot ,now dont you go giving up on me after all this time i know its been slow, i dont often do this but just for you on line for all to witness, I R.WINDER GIVE YOU MY WORD THAT ALL I STATED REGARDING DE LOUBA TAR IS TRUE, IF NOT I WILL GIVE YOU ALL MY CWS, i have sent cd to Dutch memmber of this site as it is all in dutch,,, so it should be with this person tommorow or next day, i will then ask this person to send you private mail to confirm my facts...... now if you have time i will share with you my work with my wolf and my CWS dog Soli and show my work and what i have achieved and it will i hope change the way others remove cubs from the mother wolf at 10 days old, one breeder in USA has agreed to try it in 2009 useing low content wolfdog male, for example i take one pup from Kizzy at 10 days for 5 mins, she is o.k. next day i take 2 pups for 5 mins, she is ok, next 3 pups kizzy is out looking for them serching the compound, next day i leave it, then following i take all cubs, frantic behaviour,, going crazy, so i hurry in and reunite her with the pups, i never do this again ever, but i have to do this as i read most breeders do this, i have to see what reactions from wolf are, these breeders treat wolf as if it is dog, i remind them wolf has pups, but unlike dog wolf pups remain with mother and in pack, some may even spend rest of life in same pack as mother, so it is not normal for the pups to sudenly disapear, the stress caused to the wolf is unbelivable and it is barbaric for people to do this just because they want to have wolf that excepts humans.. i prove with help of SOLI CWS it can be done different way and cause less stress on wolf,, i still dont believe all pups should go , so i keep two and let them grow up with mother, i will keep them with her and maybe if i breed again or when they are lots older i can remove them,, i watch them everyday playing and watch her teach them things, how can people call themselves wolf lovers when they deprive the mother of all this. horrible people.. i will send you photos,, by the way i never cross my CWS with any breed of dog ever. pacino

[solowolf]

Originally Posted by Nebulosa

Repeating matings is different to use a stud.
Omar z krotkovskeho dvora was used in a different data in pretty different conditions for the breed.
I don't agree with his use in this way, I don't agree with the fact that people had use so much some studs as Rep Z pohranicni Straze and Omar z Krotovskeho dvora, when at the same time some dogs with different bloodlines get lost in the time because hole litter of lonely mate die without get used in the breed.
But things change and now we have more dogs than at past, more females and more breeders, surelly the number of the litters per dog, principally a famous one will increase, if we compare with the past it will seems even stupid and bad for the breed.
In this topic we are mixing somethings as if it is equal, its a wrong think.
One thing is repeat ever the same litter, it surelly decrease the genetic pool of the breed as the clone litter have no value for breeding, another thing is you use a stud with you know have good bloodline and pass good characteristics one time or with different females and don't repeat again these litters, you do it knowing and waiting good genetic, another thing is you blindly use a male because shows or working titles.

I really don't see problems in dogs like Carr Maly Bysterec or Baron Spod Dumbiera and others like that, wich have made some different litter with some different females in different countries, theyr blood is speeled over world, not all dogs from these mates are used in breeding, some pet dogs and maybe one or two dogs of these litters will get used at breeding, these dogs we all know pass some good qualitys for its offsprings, turning better the quality helping with the breed evolution as well.
The females mated with this dog probably won't repeat ever the same litter with him, even because he is from different owner and sometimes not soo much well common, and well... the owners study the line for make this litter and commonly they find another so interessant dog for mate in next litter, so you will be able to see the blood of this female with some different males, if you want you will use the blood of this female with the blood of this well common dog or not.
No wonder if in about 5 years we have some linebreedings on these dogs with the will to increase a little bit the amount of blood of these dogs in the specific litter, that's happen and is common in all breed.

At other side we have the hiper show well-know titled dogs, wich everyones uses it sometimes blindly because the titles that will help then to sell the litter, not only have him as father but make huge inbreedig and line breeding in this dog, another times without any knowledge about its genetic they make litters with the think that: "if this dog is good and titled, he will makes good litters", and, when you have a hyper used dog, neophites will see only good dogs winning at shows or at the magazines, and will think "this dog is good" without have knowledge that of these 2 good dogs, this same stud made about 50 bad ones wich are almost hiding with owners as Pet, and maybe will appear one good soul wich will study the pedigree of this dog, his offsprings and will see if this dog will be good or bad if mate with his female.

And so, we have here the good character of the stud owner, you as owner will let your dog be used in repeated mates? with females with bad bloodline for him? or let him make inbreeding using him with his daughter?
here enter the good sense and the money question, if someones only care for money, he will let his stud be used for who paid, if the owner have alittle bit og good sense, he will think twice before do that.
This concience will avoid the problems that we can see at south america with dobermann breeding, almost all dobermanns have one dog in line or inbreeding, barely you find dogs that's at least far away of this dog, that's happen becahse this dog was good and the owner surelly don't care much or don't had think about the future of the breed, and let this dog be over used by other breeders, the dog is good, pass good genetic and is pretty know and well titled. For you people had idea about the think of th eowner, the dog is death at more than 5 years and still make litters as father... tecnology rules.

your tecnology was not much use when you insulted me and the breeder of my timber wollf calling it a HYBRID ,,,,,, you can talk the talk but if you cant tell a pure wolf when you see one i wouldnt bother with breeding at all,,,,,, pacino

[Nebulosa]

Originally Posted by solowolf

your tecnology was not much use when you insulted me and the breeder of my timber wollf calling it a HYBRID ,,,,,, you can talk the talk but if you cant tell a pure wolf when you see one i wouldnt bother with breeding at all,,,,,, pacino

Sorry pacino but she is a timber wolf only in your imagination, not long time I saw the webpage of the breeder you bring her, breeder of high content hybrids, its not wolf.