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-   -   Health of the breeds (http://www.wolfdog.org/forum/showthread.php?t=8774)

elf 31-07-2008 16:00

Health of the breeds
 
I know at least 3 breeders in Europe which are crossing SWH and American wolfdogs because of the SWH growing up health troubles. I guess not a business issue because these dogs are no more expensive and the production is rather limited. (don't know if they are registered as SWH/CSW or not).
Where is the truth, SWH is an healthy breed ? Discussing with some SWH breeders it seems it's not the case anymore. Checking the linebreeding rate, I don't see how this breed can be healthy in the future (btw also true for CSW, the genetic pool would be enough if breeders respected good breeding rules but it's not the case in huge cases). Sad but true.

elf 31-07-2008 18:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angelika (Bericht 150744)
Anthony, as Paula already said, these "producer" always argue for health-problems :evil:

You are right Angelika.
I'm still wondering how is true or untrue that SWH breeds get more and more unhealthy ? Is it really true that pra, epilepsy, heart trouble, dwarfs, dead born litters or very few puppy, arise more and more ? One can find statistical health resources to help to sort this out ? Unfortunately it's not as difficult as one can think to have a genetic bottleneck population.

michaelundinaeichhorn 31-07-2008 18:42

The health problems in Sarloos are nothing new but CSW still are over average health compared to other breeds.
What people tend to forget is that you have to find homes for several hybrids and coming back to England that Timberwolf definetly has nothing to do with CSW. Just google wolfdogs in USA and you will find several shelters and rescue societies together with reports about accidents. There are very good reasons why not every state does allow hybrids.
For all people I know keeping hybrids health wasn´t the main reason to get one. Very many of them feel save at the moment having animals that are not adult now, not realising that the difficult times haven´t come yet.

We raised and are responsible for 8 European wolfves at the moment and believe me even a half- or quater-wolf is much more than the common owner can handle not to mention the daily stress those poor creatures very often have. On the way to create the working breed CSW there was an very unusual hard selection and a very big amount of killed animals. Every animal not fitting the sheme was killed, do you really think you could do that nowadays, what do you want to do with them then?

Another point is that people think there are no diseases in wolves at all, that is simply not true, they just don´t reproduce on long terms. The same is with the thought that health problems will disapear just with crossing in one wolf, most of the Sarloos-problems seem to be recessiv, they just won´t show up for some years but the problems will come back unless you keep on with crossing in.

The only thing that can prevent and help is a good knowledge of breeders with hard selection and inventing DNA-Tests for inherited diseases, in very special cases going together with a very severely controlled and a very long term planed incrossing of other breeds/wolves. Breeding hybrids in private hands is for me an absolutely irresponsible and egocentric new hype. And irresponsible and egocentric people are horrible breeders.

Ina

elf 31-07-2008 19:11

Quote:

The only thing that can prevent and help is a good knowledge of breeders with hard selection and inventing DNA-Tests for inherited diseases, in very special cases going together with a very severely controlled and a very long term planed incrossing of other breeds/wolves.
I do agree with all that (and also for sure for hybrids living conditions...), but in my opinion expecting good breeding practices is not realistic, dogs is a business and especially for dogs the price a CSW/SWH. So I would lean to a severely controlled new blood introduction (the use of DNA-Tests would be necessary otherwise it may only leads to new diseases introduction) ... I guess it's not something that will happened any time soon in CSW or SWH. Let's say in 20 years ?

Rona 31-07-2008 19:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 150768)
On the way to create the working breed CSW there was an very unusual hard selection and a very big amount of killed animals. Every animal not fitting the sheme was killed, do you really think you could do that nowadays, what do you want to do with them then?

Ina, I fully support your point of view. Any attempts to experiment with wolf hybrids or any wild animals by people who don't have good projects approved and supported by relevant authorities, who lack contingency plans together with very good scientific background & facillities, accompanied by solid financial backing and who don't ACT OPENLY (e.g. write honest, valid reports, present their findings at conferecnes etc.) is a sign of their total lack of imagination, responsibility and common sense. In my opinion they should be penalized for such deeds....

Besides, the huge suffering that occured in the Pohranicny Straze Kennel of both animals and people who were taking heartbreaking decisions is a reason valid enough to do everything to protect the breed from greedy maniacs.

elf 31-07-2008 19:54

I do not worry (for the moment) for CSW, but more for SWH. My opinion is that the breed really needs new blood. One the one hand as said it's needed to be closely controlled (and it's not something "easy" and "painless"), on the other hand waiting forever would maybe lead to the end of this lovely breed. Dead end ?

michaelundinaeichhorn 31-07-2008 20:34

I agree with you in this point, but there is the possibility to use CSW for that (and has been used allready). That doesn´t excuse the breeding of CSW with Tibers like in Mr. Winders case, and it doesn´t excuse the breeding of hybrids in general.
And looking at the SWH I am not very optimistic that it will be possible to rescue the breed at all, especially with the breeders involved that have caused the situation you have now.

Ina

jaybexx 31-07-2008 21:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by michaelundinaeichhorn (Bericht 150789)
...And looking at the SWH I am not very optimistic that it will be possible to rescue the breed at all, especially with the breeders involved that have caused the situation you have now...
Ina

hi ina,

please try to keep at the issue of the post.

thanks and cheers,
josh

nanouk 31-07-2008 21:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by elf (Bericht 150783)
I do not worry (for the moment) for CSW, but more for SWH. My opinion is that the breed really needs new blood. One the one hand as said it's needed to be closely controlled (and it's not something "easy" and "painless"), on the other hand waiting forever would maybe lead to the end of this lovely breed. Dead end ?

One wonders where you base that on?
SWD like TWD and any other breed have some health problems. Since shortly there is a test for dwarfism available, something that will not only tell us if dwarfism is really a problem in SWD but will aslo help us with a better breeding for the future.
I do not claim the SWH does not know disease, but the breed is not finished without 'new' blood, only a cooperation with NVSWH and those dogs being used now are enough 'new' blood the breed needs! Cooperation and smart breeding is worth so much more as new blood.
Post like that seem to justify crossbreeding, feed fear and rumour, and lack facts.

I know several TWD with severe HD, know some other with other health problems.. does that justify me generalizing that all TWD are sick.. i doubt.
SWD is more inbred as TWD, but with the data i have on SWD i can in confidence say that i don#t see the future of SWD as negative as some as you do......


But the discussion is smartly diverted this way from pacino kennels to health ;)

michaelundinaeichhorn 31-07-2008 21:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaybexx (Bericht 150799)
hi ina,

please try to keep at the issue of the post.

thanks and cheers,
josh

I didn´t start in this direction...
Anyway this is no SWH-Forum

elf 31-07-2008 22:17

Please be all mind open, ok SWH are not CSW, but there are very close (around 20000 genes for dogs, how many shared by SWH and CSW ?). Furthermore CSW can be in SWH situation in some years, worth looking at it throw this angle.
For exemple, SWH have a test for dwarfism, maybe this test would be useful as is for CSW ?

PS: let's open a new thread if this topic diverges too much from Winter's breeding.

Nebulosa 31-07-2008 23:52

I open this new topic on Health and nutrition, we're not talking only of SHW health but of CzW health present and future too, without doubt's we can compare these two breeds because, by the way, seems that some people are trying cause problems in CzW following the same erros made in SHW breed and... using the same excuse.

Hanka 01-08-2008 06:08

I see, I must write it again and again. In Czech republic work "breed comission" what watch population of wolfdogs. We know,if some lines, families have some health problems, we care for more dogs in bloodlines, where is less males, females.
How much clubs in Evropa do the same? I think nobody. Who care about all population? I think nobody.
We TRY to keep breed on good health level. Of course, some dogs can have problems now and in the future, but we try care about it very well.
And after it I can read in forum: "yes, wolfdog have problems".....Why theese clubs don´t delete dogs with problems out from breeding????
Why "breeders" use really every wolfdog for breeding? No selection? No care about breed? So- what will be future of breed in Evropa?
Sorry, I know, the topic started about saarlos, but the people write here about CSW. So I feel, I must react....

Mirkawolf 01-08-2008 09:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 150853)
Why "breeders" use really every wolfdog for breeding? No selection? No care about breed? So- what will be future of breed in Evropa?
Sorry, I know, the topic started about saarlos, but the people write here about CSW. So I feel, I must react....

Because as you could read before, dogs are business :( And at the end of the day, for many of "breeders" it is all about the money.
Just look at the adds even here on Wolfdog.org - how many announced litters from abroad have both parents x-rayed? Not to mention bonitated?

For some breeders, titles are also more than character of the dogs. And the judges are inexperienced with the breed, they often compare CSW with Saarloos, believeing it is normal it is shy :roll: And don´t expect the owners or breeders of shy dogs tell the judge otherwise, so the shy dog gets title and the circus gets rolling... Who cares, that shy dog will produce only other shy dogs, and that titles won´t matter in normal life with a dog who is scared of its own shadow! It´s business, no? :evil:

And about the clubs, well ... let´s say that many of breeders who breed like this, are actually members of board of some of these clubs? So what do you think, can change? :|

rocco 01-08-2008 09:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 150853)
I see, I must write it again and again. In Czech republic work "breed comission" what watch population of wolfdogs. We know,if some lines, families have some health problems, we care for more dogs in bloodlines, where is less males, females.
How much clubs in Evropa do the same? I think nobody. Who care about all population? I think nobody.
We TRY to keep breed on good health level. Of course, some dogs can have problems now and in the future, but we try care about it very well.
And after it I can read in forum: "yes, wolfdog have problems".....Why theese clubs don´t delete dogs with problems out from breeding????
Why "breeders" use really every wolfdog for breeding? No selection? No care about breed? So- what will be future of breed in Evropa?
Sorry, I know, the topic started about saarlos, but the people write here about CSW. So I feel, I must react....

Ok but no experts work now in czech "breed comission" :evil:. What you know about genetic ????? You read once Wachtel :twisted::roll: ? You are funny with yours plans (breed comission) without knowledge of breeding way and population genetic....SAD BUT TRUE.

I agree with elf . In SAW is problem (in my opinion) - that Holand club and people don't wan't sold puppies ...SAW are now more imbreed than CZW - SAW have smaller population than CZW, but CZW is all consanquinity too and I afraid it maybe problem in future........Health problems in CZW are increasing.
Both breeds have health problems - wild animals have problems too, but nature selection is more hard than breeders.

Hanka 01-08-2008 10:14

Ok but no experts work now in czech "breed comission" :evil:. What you know about genetic ????? You read once Wachtel :twisted::roll: ? You are funny with yours plans (breed comission) without knowledge of breeding way and population genetic....SAD BUT TRUE.

Rocco. I don´t know you personally, you don´t know me. So, please, don´t write about me, don´t write ME....
I can write only this: Present breed comission care about population and about health and it NEVER will do some "Mutara" experiment , etc. like old breed comission....(your friends)

rocco 01-08-2008 10:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanka (Bericht 150886)
Rocco. I don´t know you personally, you don´t know me. So, please, don´t write about me, don´t write ME....
I can write only this: Present breed comission care about population and about health and it NEVER will do some "Mutara" experiment , etc. like old breed comission....(your friends)

:lol::lol::lol::lol: you don't know me personally ????? very funny :bigok. You care about population :lol::lol::lol: - so I said - you haven't knowledge....and yours experiments are more danger for population than Mutara - my friend :daysmile

wolfin 01-08-2008 11:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by rocco (Bericht 150890)
:lol::lol::lol::lol: you don't know me personally ????? very funny :bigok. You care about population :lol::lol::lol: - so I said - you haven't knowledge....and yours experiments are more danger for population than Mutara - my friend :daysmile


experiments? cann say what experiment make Hanka? this is very important to breed :)

elf 01-08-2008 11:16

Please all, forgot personal matter for a while as it's always what prevent to go ahead. The only way to go ahead against health troubles is to share informations and coordinate actions. For France there is this place (also contains English resources): http://www-recomgen.univ-rennes1.fr/doggy.html ; which centralises the work done in canine genetic area (current research project, known genetic diseases, genetic tests available ...). Very useful, not enough used.

Pavel 01-08-2008 12:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfin (Bericht 150908)
experiments? cann say what experiment make Hanka? this is very important to breed :)

Wolfin and other - stay cool. Rooco want provocate only. For she is only Monika Soukupova, Nada Sebkova and Jindra Jedlicka only the people, who are CsW experts. Did you hear just the names ? Yes - Mutara group. :D


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